Another hcg mono profile starting up! - Long -

[Fuz32560]

So i've been lurking here for a few weeks now. Here's my story and initial numbers to hopefully help out others and see if i can get any thoughts from you guys!

I'm 34 and have been suffering from basically every symptom of low T for the past 10 years at least. Finally decided to do something about it.

Went to go see a reg doctor and basically got the run-around. Got sent to see an Endo and after she felt me up, she basically said i was "normal enough" and that she couldnt recommend therapy. Thanks to you guys, i managed to find an anti-aging doc in the SF Bay Area.

Here's my baseline BW -

Tot T - 449 (ref: 250-1100) ng/dl
% Free T - 1.47 (ref:1.5-2.2)
Free T - 65.8 - (ref: 35-155) pg/ml
TSH - 3.1 (ref:0.34-4.82)uIu/ml
Cort - 10 (ref: 5-25) ug/Dl
DHT - 23 (ref: 25-75)ng/Dl
IGF-1 - 149 (ref:106-255)ng/ml
Free T3 - 276 (ref:230-420)pg/dL
Free T4 - 1.1 (ref:0.8 - 1.8)ng/dL
PSA - 0.8 (ref: <= 4.0)
E2 - 40 pg/mL

So I guess I'm low-normal on most - my free T and DHT are low, E2 is showing high?

I started hcg mono (Novarel) with 500iu's 3x's/ week - My doc, however, is more natural / holistic in his approach.

He has me taking -

1000mg of Chrysin for E2 suppression
Prostate supplement
Thyroid support supplement
ZMA
Tribulis Terrestris

So - its been 3 weeks and my follow up is coming up soon. I want to have good questions to ask him since the sessions are expensive and I gotta make them count!

I feel a little better after 3 weeks - i do have more energy, less depressed, and slightly better focused, but the libido is still suffering. It feels like i'm headed in the right direction, but i'm not there yet.

My question to you all is:

Should I be asking for Arimidex for lower E2? Isnt E2 linked to libido too? should I even think about a higher dose of hcg / week?

It seems like i need to get more BW done, how long should i wait before getting my first set of hcg therapy BW done?

sorry for the LONG post - but i figure the more details the better. It'd be great to have detailed profiles on all of you mono therapy guys to see how its affecting each of us.

thanks for any thoughts!

 

[Gutterpump]

Only bloodwork will tell if you need an AI. But personally I didn't notice an increase in libido or many positive effects until I tamed that e2 beast with aromasin + adex. You may need adex. I personally think most people on hcg monotherapy would need it because of the doses necessary, and the subsequent increase in e2 it causes. Get DHT + PROG tested on your next bloodwork too.

 

[Mikey851]

Only bloodwork will tell if you need an AI. But personally I didn't notice an increase in libido or many positive effects until I tamed that e2 beast with aromasin + adex. You may need adex. I personally think most people on hcg monotherapy would need it because of the doses necessary, and the subsequent increase in e2 it causes. Get DHT + PROG tested on your next bloodwork too.

I might be starting HCG monotherapy as well next week sometime. I know everyone talks about E2 and AIs etc.; my doctor said he does not want to worry about it until he would see a reason too. In other words he doesn't want to start me out on an AI or even test my E2 sensitive until he sees a reason to. He says that increases in E2 would be seen in other tests if it were significant.

I really am convinced he knows what he is doing though because he is tackling it in a very similar fashion as the techniques that you guys mention on this site. We will see.

 

[JanSz]

!

Cost of doctor's visits is a major part of your costs.
Holistic, normal, endo, osteopath, naturpath,
who really cares, as long as he is helping you, right, no not really.

Specially doctors that do not accept insurance, charge high fees and make it little eaiser on your wallet by ordering minimal amouts of tests.

If he is helping you based on technical analysis (tests, lots of tests) then you are able to discuss your problem with another doctor or someone on this board.

If he is helping you because he is an artist or miracle worker,
you are still happy when you have got a help,
but nobody else but this particular doc is able to give you any prognosis or opinion on correctness of your theraphy.
----------------------

Similarly when using clearly defined medicine vs concoctions made from widely known helpfull ingredients.

Medicine, usually helps in direct way. Actions are often repeatable.

Herbs and other concoctions (those that actually work), more often than not rely on body's ability to heal it self and produce the missing hormone or other ingredient by it self. This is a big limitations. Works only on marginal cases (when used properly), but takes away time if it works or not. Often herbal ingredients are not repeatable from one manufacturer to another.
-----------------------------

I wrote all that not to criticise your current doctor.
But did he figured out if you are secondary and have a higher probability of being helped by HCG?

I think that your first priority in dealing with your doctor is to get at least once, one wery extensive (base-line) blood test.

We will be able to judge latter if any advice work comparing future tests to this baseline.

With time you may be able to correct few items and still do not feel any improvement. This baseline test will help you to stay focused on track.
Sometimes your progress will be judged by numbers only, not if you got erection or not.
------------------------------

List for baseline tests is on my post #44, between blue lines, here:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

-------------------------------

 

[Fuz32560]

Cost of doctor's visits is a major part of your costs.
Holistic, normal, endo, osteopath, naturpath,
who really cares, as long as he is helping you, right, no not really.

Specially doctors that do not accept insurance, charge high fees and make it little eaiser on your wallet by ordering minimal amouts of tests.

If he is helping you based on technical analysis (tests, lots of tests) then you are able to discuss your problem with another doctor or someone on this board.


-------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the response - I appreciate your candor. I agree that this holistic approach is difficult to qualify and/or quantify. Its more a 'let's try and see' method. I do like the 'less medicine' more 'natural' approach, but i also want to keep my visits to a min (expensive!!) Quite frankly the supplements i'm taking would probably cost the same as any increased meds.

The doctor agrees that medicine will be the next step if hcg + supplements doesn't help me achieve my results, so because he's in the same city, i hope to be able to continue to work with him - i'm just doing as much research as I can to keep things moving along.

results of the preliminary followup:

1. Doesn't want to work with DHT for the time being - although low.
2. Doesn't want to work with E2 for the time being - although high. Wants to see if Chrysin helps keep it in check.
3. IGF-1 - wants to try symbiotropin or otropin spray to help boost. Before trying anything stronger. I'm not sure i want to go this route. $70-$100 for a 30 day supply of something that may not work is a little hard to swallow (no pun intended). Have any of you tried this route?
4. fT3/fT4 - considered my #'s low - put me on 15mg of Armour for first 2 weeks and then 30mg of Armour.
4. Hcg - told him that my feelings in response to the hcg after 2 weeks were tapering off and he wanted me to up my dose to 750iu E3D to see how it will affect my response.

Lastly, he'd like me to wait 5 more weeks (total 7 weeks on Hcg mono then retest bloodwork).

so i guess i have about 4 weeks left to go - going to switch to the higher dose + Armour. Hoping it doesn't adversely affect too much.

Ill put together a list of what i should test before i go in. I'll look at your post - thanks for the input.

more to come!

 

[redbishop123]

Not to hijack the thread but does anyone recommend taking hcg while taking nandrolone??..

 

[JanSz]

Thanks for the response - I appreciate your candor. I agree that this holistic approach is difficult to qualify and/or quantify. Its more a 'let's try and see' method. I do like the 'less medicine' more 'natural' approach, but i also want to keep my visits to a min (expensive!!) Quite frankly the supplements i'm taking would probably cost the same as any increased meds.

The doctor agrees that medicine will be the next step if hcg + supplements doesn't help me achieve my results, so because he's in the same city, i hope to be able to continue to work with him - i'm just doing as much research as I can to keep things moving along.

results of the preliminary followup:

1. Doesn't want to work with DHT for the time being - although low.
2. Doesn't want to work with E2 for the time being - although high. Wants to see if Chrysin helps keep it in check.
3. IGF-1 - wants to try symbiotropin or otropin spray to help boost. Before trying anything stronger. I'm not sure i want to go this route. $70-$100 for a 30 day supply of something that may not work is a little hard to swallow (no pun intended). Have any of you tried this route?
4. fT3/fT4 - considered my #'s low - put me on 15mg of Armour for first 2 weeks and then 30mg of Armour.
4. Hcg - told him that my feelings in response to the hcg after 2 weeks were tapering off and he wanted me to up my dose to 750iu E3D to see how it will affect my response.

Lastly, he'd like me to wait 5 more weeks (total 7 weeks on Hcg mono then retest bloodwork).

so i guess i have about 4 weeks left to go - going to switch to the higher dose + Armour. Hoping it doesn't adversely affect too much.

Ill put together a list of what i should test before i go in. I'll look at your post - thanks for the input.

more to come!

Whatewer is that you will be doing, get baseline test.
Post #44 have a list that I do once a year or 1.5yrs.
Between blue lines:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/66268-jans-bloodtest-april13-2.html

Make sure that you have complete thyroid test.
FreeT4/T4 are major but before you fix them, look first at RT3.
You want to have it in lower half of range.
If it is high or even "just" in upper half range, use T3 to get it to bottom 1/4 range.

But before you do ANY thyroid manipulations
straighten up thyroid minerals and vitamins
know status of your adrenals

./

 

[Fuz32560]

Update:

So its been about 8 weeks - Took a good number of blood tests last week so I'm waiting for the results.

I'm still on 500ius/E3D - i tried 750 ius/E3D for 1 week per dr request - body felt like it was going to fall apart (every joint ached, felt lethargic, libido fell drastically, rash, itchy nipples).

Went back down to 500ius/E3D and things got a little better.

Still on 30mgs of Armour - taken first thing in the AM.

Depression, lethargy, lack of libido, ED is still a problem. My initial gains in the gym after the first few weeks have plateaud -

Although i'm watching pretty closely what i eat and doing cardio 3-4x's week for 40 mins after weights, my BF is still 22% - all around the gut (My thighs feel like i have saran wrap wrapped tightly around my quads).

Symptoms that have gotten better:

1. Dry flaky scalp disappeared alltogether - like magic. Have had this problem since my early teens.
2. Cold feet - mostly gone. used to have blocks of ice attached to my ankles (or so my GF said)

that's about it though.

Hoping to be able to make some adjustments to the protocol when i get my tests in. Leanguy's results seem promising, but i know everyone's different.

more next week when I get the tests back! Now to figure out where the heck i'm going to get my next vial of Novarel.. damn stock issues.

 

[Fuz32560]

Ok - bloodwork results are in -

collected 4/29/09
Tot T - 671 (ref: 250-1100) ng/dl - before 449
% Free T - 1.59 (ref:1.5-2.2) - before 1.47
Free T - 106.4 - (ref: 35-155) pg/ml before 65.8

Cort - Not Tested(ref: 5-25) ug/Dl before 10
DHT - Not Tested (ref: 25-75)ng/Dl before 23
IGF-1 - 175 (ref:106-255)ng/ml before 149

Free T3 - 367 (ref:230-420)pg/dL before 276
Free T4 - 1.2 (ref:0.8 - 1.8)ng/dL before 1.1
Reverse T3 - 23 (ref:11-32 ng/dl) no baseline

PSA - Not tested (ref: <= 4.0) before 0.8
E2 - Not Tested - before 40 pg/mL
E2 Ultra - 13 (ref: <=29) - No baseline
DHEA-S - 265 (ref: 110 - 370mcg/dL) - No baseline

Thyroid Peroxidase - <10 (ref: < 35 IU/ml)
Thyroglobulin <20 (ref: <20 iu/ml)

LH - <0.2 (ref: 1.5 - 9.3mIU/ml) - no baseline
FSH <0.70 (ref:1.6 - 8.0mIU/ml) - no baseline

Prog - 0.8 (ref: <1.4 ng/ml)
Preg - 28 (ref: 13-208 ng/dl)


so it looks like i've responded to the HCG mono and armour (500iu E3d and 0.5 grains)- but most of the symptoms still exist (low libido, low energy, foggy thinking, compounded by insomnia and easily overtraining). since my E2 ultra is way different than E2 normal (baseline) I dont know how to compare.

Preg seems really now as does Prog, IGF-1 still seems low.

I have a followup with the doctor in a couple of days - i'd appreciate any feedback so i can discuss them with my doc.

thanks guys - this board has been a huge help thus far