HCG versus direct testosterone replacement wrt estrogen issues

  1. New Member
    steve999's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    91
    Rep Power
    125
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    21.69%

    HCG versus direct testosterone replacement wrt estrogen issues


    After finding a "real" doc, I started out on HCG monotherapy at 1000 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 470 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 24 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc told me to bump HCG up to 1200 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 633 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 36 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc has now switched me to direct testosterone starting out at 100 mg/week. Short term plan is to get me to at least 80% upper range testosterone with lower range estrogen levels and see how libido and ED issues respond.

    My question is why would direct testosterone tend to increase estradiol less than HCG?

  2. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by steve999 View Post
    After finding a "real" doc, I started out on HCG monotherapy at 1000 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 470 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 24 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc told me to bump HCG up to 1200 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 633 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 36 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc has now switched me to direct testosterone starting out at 100 mg/week. Short term plan is to get me to at least 80% upper range testosterone with lower range estrogen levels and see how libido and ED issues respond.

    My question is why would direct testosterone tend to increase estradiol less than HCG?
    Probably, but your E2 is where most would expect it to be -- 1/20 to 1/30 of your test level. Time for an AI to get it down to 20-30.
  3. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by steve999 View Post
    After finding a "real" doc, I started out on HCG monotherapy at 1000 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 470 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 24 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc told me to bump HCG up to 1200 units EOD resulting in a testosterone level of 633 ng/dL (range 241-827) with estradiol at 36 pg/mL (range 3-70). Low libido and ED problems persisted.

    My doc has now switched me to direct testosterone starting out at 100 mg/week. Short term plan is to get me to at least 80% upper range testosterone with lower range estrogen levels and see how libido and ED issues respond.

    My question is why would direct testosterone tend to increase estradiol less than HCG?
    EOD is too frequent. Try E3D or twice per week (which in my opinion is the best). HCG has a half life of 30 hours and testosterone levels remain elevated from 72 to 96 hours while on it. More time off gives your receptors a chance to clear.

    Here's an interesting study: http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/...minary_report/
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    steve999's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    91
    Rep Power
    125
    Level
    9
    Lv. Percent
    21.69%

    Thanks for the info. I'm on direct testosterone now, but I could see trying HCG with an estrogen inhibitor at some point in the fture.
  5. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by steve999 View Post
    Thanks for the info. I'm on direct testosterone now, but I could see trying HCG with an estrogen inhibitor at some point in the fture.
    hCG is more likely to be aromatized -- converted into E2. If you are not concerned about maintain testicular size and function, straight test could be considered simpler/more elegant. Good luck.
  6. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    More time off gives your receptors a chance to clear.
    HCG (LH) receptors or T receptors?
  7. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    HCG (LH) receptors or T receptors?
    From the study: We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection.

    When I weened off of HCG, and took an eight month break, it took around two weeks after my last injection before I felt its absence. I'm not saying that one shot every two weeks is ideal. I experienced the best results twice per week (3 days off and 4 days off). On that schedule I had little or no aromatization and high TT and FT levels.
  8. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    From the study: We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection.

    When I weened off of HCG, and took an eight month break, it took around two weeks after my last injection before I felt its absence. I'm not saying that one shot every two weeks is ideal. I experienced the best results twice per week (3 days off and 4 days off). On that schedule I had little or no aromatization and high TT and FT levels.
    Gotcha. I didn't understand whether it was an issue with testosterone binding or the actual HCG binding.
  9. New Member
    mattmuscle's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    79
    Level
    2
    Lv. Percent
    98.83%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    From the study: We generally performed hCG injections every 2 weeks because it has been reported that the binding capacity of testicular hCG receptors is significantly reduced for 5 days after injection.

    When I weened off of HCG, and took an eight month break, it took around two weeks after my last injection before I felt its absence. I'm not saying that one shot every two weeks is ideal. I experienced the best results twice per week (3 days off and 4 days off). On that schedule I had little or no aromatization and high TT and FT levels.
    Whats also interesting in that study is that most parameters improved except for the erectile function score (IIEF-5 score) and SDS scores.

    Could this be to do with such a spaced out dosing and the amount administered? There is no consideration for the effects of estrogen?
  10. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmuscle View Post
    Whats also interesting in that study is that most parameters improved except for the erectile function score (IIEF-5 score) and SDS scores.

    Could this be to do with such a spaced out dosing and the amount administered? There is no consideration for the effects of estrogen?
    Probably - I doubt there would be much of a rise in DHT or E2 levels dosing twice per month. In my opinion, HCG needs to be administered at least once per week to be effective.
  11. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Probably - I doubt there would be much of a rise in DHT or E2 levels dosing twice per month. In my opinion, HCG needs to be administered at least once per week to be effective.
    I wonder if hCG, dosed twice weekly, would still maintain circadian output if a patient was also on T CYP at a smaller dose (say 80 mg/week).

    Might work in a case where hCG is not enough in and of itself to raise serum T. Give a little boost with T CYP, but the hCG still maintains daily rhythm.
  12. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    I wonder if hCG, dosed twice weekly, would still maintain circadian output if a patient was also on T CYP at a smaller dose (say 80 mg/week).

    Might work in a case where hCG is not enough in and of itself to raise serum T. Give a little boost with T CYP, but the hCG still maintains daily rhythm.
    I don't think so, dude. I think the exog test shuts down the LH as well, because there is no longer an alarm to trigger that the body needs more test.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone that is on a higher dose of hCG, with a small booster dose of test. I'm yet to hear of this combo, and the results it brings. But I'm interested.

    Take care.
  13. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I don't think so, dude. I think the exog test shuts down the LH as well, because there is no longer an alarm to trigger that the body needs more test.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone that is on a higher dose of hCG, with a small booster dose of test. I'm yet to hear of this combo, and the results it brings. But I'm interested.

    Take care.
    Exogenous T will definitely shut down LH.

    But there's research (somewhere on these boards) which suggests hCG, twice weekly (say Monday/Thursday) will restore diurnal T production in some men. That's independent of LH (these men were LH suppressed from secondary hypogonadism) and due to the action of hCG .

    As such, I wonder if the same would hold true for someone on T + hCG.

    The T CYP would produce a baseline level of testosterone which would decay according to its half life.

    But the hCG would be additive to the T-CYP and I don't see why it wouldn't restore diurnal rhythm, all else equal. You can't be any more shut down than shut down, so the T CYP shouldn't affect that part of the equation.

    If this holds true, it makes an argument that T + hCG can produce similar intraday variation in serum T similar to transdermals.

    Sorry if I went OT.
  14. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Exogenous T will definitely shut down LH.

    But there's research (somewhere on these boards) which suggests hCG, twice weekly (say Monday/Thursday) will restore diurnal T production in some men. That's independent of LH (these men were LH suppressed from secondary hypogonadism) and due to the action of hCG .

    As such, I wonder if the same would hold true for someone on T + hCG.

    The T CYP would produce a baseline level of testosterone which would decay according to its half life.

    But the hCG would be additive to the T-CYP and I don't see why it wouldn't restore diurnal rhythm, all else equal. You can't be any more shut down than shut down, so the T CYP shouldn't affect that part of the equation.

    If this holds true, it makes an argument that T + hCG can produce similar intraday variation in serum T similar to transdermals.

    Sorry if I went OT.
    Thoughtful post, Rick. I hear what you are saying, but I guess it's semantics. I would not call it diurnal, as that suggests a natural rhythm, rather than an artificial one. I think what you are proposing is a formula that produces a more steady blood level (than straight T cyp) in individuals responsive to hCG. I.e, the Crisler protocol on patients with secondary hypo. I don't think it would result in the same rhythm as a daily transdermal.

    I've been wondering for some time whether someone who is secondary can have a strong response to hCG while on T cyp. If so, something like 500 IUs of hCG every 4 days, and 20 mgs of T cyp, would work really well, and probably combat some of the E2 issues that are caused by pushing TT to 900-1400. Thoughts?
  15. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I would not call it diurnal, as that suggests a natural rhythm, rather than an artificial one.
    Diurnal rhythm of testosterone induced by human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) therapy in isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism: a comparison between subcutaneous and intramuscular hCG administration

    http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/conten...ract/131/2/173
  16. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Diurnal rhythm of testosterone induced by human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) therapy in isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism: a comparison between subcutaneous and intramuscular hCG administration

    http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/conten...ract/131/2/173
    But with the T injections, I dont see how it would resemble the normal ebb and flow of diurnal rhythm. In fact, even just hCG every 4 days results in much greater variation of highs and lows, so I would think. I'll read your link.

    Please don't get me wrong, I appreciate the dialogue, and your intellect impresses me.
  17. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    Diurnal rhythm of testosterone induced by human chorionic gonadotrophin (hCG) therapy in isolated hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism: a comparison between subcutaneous and intramuscular hCG administration

    http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/conten...ract/131/2/173
    Interesting. However, it was a tiny sampling (8 patients), it was only several weeks, and it only restored rhythm in 4 of the patients. But still, there is something there. I would imagine that adding test would reduce that number by a much greater margin.

    5,000 IUs is a whopper of a dose for a secondary. That would probably send my TT over 1500, probably. 3,500 per week put me over 1,200 at trough, and my E2 over 80.

    What's your protocol look like, Rick?
  18. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Interesting. However, it was a tiny sampling (8 patients), it was only several weeks, and it only restored rhythm in 4 of the patients. But still, there is something there. I would imagine that adding test would reduce that number by a much greater margin.

    5,000 IUs is a whopper of a dose for a secondary. That would probably send my TT over 1500, probably. 3,500 per week put me over 1,200 at trough, and my E2 over 80.

    What's your protocol look like, Rick?
    It's hard to say how you would react. I did that amount and frequency for nearly three months and it wasn't until week 10 that my E2 went over 20. At one point, my TT was over 1400. TT varied between that and 1200. Now 1500 IUs E3D puts my TT between 950 and 1060 and I have to use .5 mg of Adex with the injection - go figure.
  19. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    It's hard to say how you would react. I did that amount for nearly three months and it wasn't until week 10 that my E2 went over 20. At one point, my TT was over 1400. TT varied between that and 1200. Now 1500 IUs E3D puts my TT between 950 and 1060 and I have to use .5 mg of Adex with the injection - go figure.
    The last 3 weeks I've switched to twice per week. I have a feeling that I will now be able to reduce or even eliminate Adex.
  20. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    The last 3 weeks I've switched to twice per week. I have a feeling that I will now be able to reduce or even eliminate Adex.
    Glad to hear this, Colkurtz.

    I've concluded that it doesn't much matter for me. Regardless of my dosing, take my TT and divide it by 15-17.5, and that's my E2 -- my E2 runs a little high. More frequent dosing will drop my peak TT such that E2 doesn't get as high. I'm doing every 4 days now. Twice per week is too complicated for me as I look to inject in the mornings.
  21. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Glad to hear this, Colkurtz.

    I've concluded that it doesn't much matter for me. Regardless of my dosing, take my TT and divide it by 15-17.5, and that's my E2 -- my E2 runs a little high. More frequent dosing will drop my peak TT such that E2 doesn't get as high. I'm doing every 4 days now. Twice per week is too complicated for me as I look to inject in the mornings.
    Every four days sounds good, but my schedule is hardly complicated. I inject Wednesday and Sunday evenings. My doctor instructed me to use an evening protocol three years ago. The results have been good so I never questioned him.
  22. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Every four days sounds good, but my schedule is hardly complicated. I inject Wednesday and Sunday evenings. My doctor instructed me to use an evening protocol three years ago. The results have been good so I never questioned him.
    What was the reasoning behind pm shots?
  23. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by rick055 View Post
    What was the reasoning behind pm shots?
    I never asked. I knew he had over a decade of experience in this therapy so I went along with him. I suppose it makes sense though. HCG starts to work in a couple of hours. One of your peak T levels is early in the morning, which means levels increase during sleep. I guess night shots would keep you in sync with your rhythm. Doing it in the morning, at let's say 7 AM would start to boost your level at 9 or 10 when it would normally be on the decline. This isn't like testosterone cream.
  24. Advanced Member
    rick055's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    567
    Rep Power
    374
    Level
    19
    Lv. Percent
    32.64%

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I never asked. I knew he had over a decade of experience in this therapy so I went along with him. I suppose it makes sense though. HCG starts to work in a couple of hours. One of your peak T levels is early in the morning, which means levels increase during sleep. I guess night shots would keep you in sync with your rhythm. Doing it in the morning, at let's say 7 AM would start to boost your level at 9 or 10 when it would normally be on the decline. This isn't like testosterone cream.
    Good point.
  25. Senior Member
    jinxie's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  155 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    1,287
    Rep Power
    40609
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    54.47%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Every four days sounds good, but my schedule is hardly complicated. I inject Wednesday and Sunday evenings. My doctor instructed me to use an evening protocol three years ago. The results have been good so I never questioned him.
    Yeah, rather than complicated I should have just said to avoid me screwing the pooch, and forgeting about the evening injection. If my doctor recommended this to me, I'd do the same. Plus, who can argue with you results: your numbers are stellar, your built and lift like a frickin' Spartan (at an age that they never even lived to), and you can whoop it up on the tennis court to boot. I can only dream of getting that much better with age! Nicely done.
  26. The horror
    colkurtz_spf's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  231 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    56
    Posts
    1,109
    Rep Power
    674
    Level
    25
    Lv. Percent
    28.96%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    Yeah, rather than complicated I should have just said to avoid me screwing the pooch, and forgeting about the evening injection. If my doctor recommended this to me, I'd do the same. Plus, who can argue with you results: your numbers are stellar, your built and lift like a frickin' Spartan (at an age that they never even lived to), and you can whoop it up on the tennis court to boot. I can only dream of getting that much better with age! Nicely done.
    Thanks! I appreciate that. I don't mean to toot my horn. The fact is that I let myself go in my 30s. I can remember going to bed at night and wondering how much longer I might have to live. But with diet, exercise and the advantage of modern medicine I manage a much better quality of life now than I had then. When I hit my 40s I decided to stop placing limits on my life. I believe it's not how long you live, but how you live it long.
  27. Professional Member
    Gutterpump's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Age
    37
    Posts
    3,782
    Rep Power
    270714
    Level
    49
    Lv. Percent
    21.93%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    I don't think so, dude. I think the exog test shuts down the LH as well, because there is no longer an alarm to trigger that the body needs more test.

    I'm still waiting to hear from someone that is on a higher dose of hCG, with a small booster dose of test. I'm yet to hear of this combo, and the results it brings. But I'm interested.

    Take care.

    I think this method is a good one, I might switch to it depending on what the results of my current test turn out like.

    When I did smaller shots of HCG while taking a larger shot of test, I found that I was still getting shutdown (shrinkage and some pain) unless I shot 3 days per week at around 400iu of hCG, but this would cause too much estrogen while on test as well...as it did for me. I had to use a lot of aromasin which is much stronger than adex.

    But so far so good on hcg monotherapy, definitely feels better than before when on nothing. Of course starting HC is also helping a lot.
  28. Board Moderator
    Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    47
    Posts
    31,888
    Rep Power
    852764
    Level
    95
    Lv. Percent
    49.84%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity RoyaltyActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting Pro

    I wonder how a low dose test propionate (like 15-20mg EOD) with maybe HCG at 200iu EOD as well would work out, both as far as creating relatively normal feeling pulses and overall feel
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Blood work question / Estrogen issues?
    By motown in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-16-2010, 09:28 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-04-2010, 04:23 AM
  3. direct testosterone replacement ==> mood swings?
    By steve999 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 03-10-2009, 09:28 AM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 12-26-2007, 04:24 PM
  5. 4AD versus testosterone
    By supersoldier in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-24-2003, 10:09 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in