Undermethylation and OverMethylation?

[MetalMX]

What exactly does under or over methylation mean?

Just need more general info about the whole theory...

 

[The Matrix]

What exactly does under or over methylation mean?

Just need more general info about the whole theory...

Mercury causes undermethylation depletion of gluthone (10 grams gluthione pushes work and make you feel GREAT !! )
Improper methylation leads to diabestes, cancer, MS, autistic like features, and peripheral nerve damage.
Means your DNA information in your cells are being mis replicated..
But it can be corrected by supplying proper nutrients in the proper form ro over ride the conversion process. 50% of people are undermethylated and have no clue what is really happening, but it really depends on if there is a genetic mutation with in their cells if it leads to other disaease such as cancer, MS, diabetes.

 

[LeanGuy]

I have been focusing on this recently. According to Carl Pfeiffer's research, he said histamine is a good indicator of methylation status. Low histamine=overmethylated and high histamine=undermethylated. Of course its a lot more complicated, but he was mainly concerned about the neuro effects of histamine levels. Here is a link that explains in easy to understand terms:

http://jbnat.com/articles/methylation.pdf (mentions mercury as well, like Matrix said)

Whole blood histamine should be 40-60... I was at 150... very undermethylated. I'm doing better on high doses of sam-e.

 

[The Matrix]

I have been focusing on this recently. According to Carl Pfeiffer's research, he said histamine is a good indicator of methylation status. Low histamine=overmethylated and high histamine=undermethylated. Of course its a lot more complicated, but he was mainly concerned about the neuro effects of histamine levels. Here is a link that explains in easy to understand terms:

http://jbnat.com/articles/methylation.pdf (mentions mercury as well, like Matrix said)

Whole blood histamine should be 40-60... I was at 150... very undermethylated. I'm doing better on high doses of sam-e.

The higher same is probably why your copper levels are coming back into normal range as well on your lab reports. Undermethylation and low estrogen cause copper imbalances. Urine amino acid testing is the best indicator of methylation because it shows what pathways are over active or underactive via amino acid metabolites.

 

[EasyEJL]

just jumping in on this, would TMG be a good general all around supplement because of this?

 

[The Matrix]

just jumping in on this, would TMG be a good general all around supplement because of this?

Depends on where the mutation is occuring..If you have underactive BHMT yes, but if it is over active NO..Not to brag or anything I am probably one of more knowledgeable people in this area when it comes to this stuff. i ahve studied genomes and DNA mutations for 4-5 years. There are only a few select people that can really under stand them. When you get into CBS, MS, BHMT, VDR, MThFRR mutations the stuff gets really complicated and supplementing if you do not know what you are doing can be very dangerous. My personal opionin is that alot of these mutations are from people taking Nitric oxide products that are flooding and jamming up methylation pathways. I have seen it time and time again..God for bid if a person with an autoimmune disease takes nitric oxide it can cause the problems to get 10 times worse then what is really is. One needs to know yes it helps build muscle but at what other biological expense or mutations which it can occur. I have seen numerous people become biological nightmare from No2 products because we are being exposed to it everyday from the enviromnemt from the pollution then we increase it internally even more !!! Come on people get wake up and smell the coffe. If you are going to use nitric oxide I would recommend 3,000 mgs lysine on days you do not train to keep it balanced. It has been already proven that nitric oxide causes adrenals to stop producing cortisol.. people with adrenal fatigue should have a higher lysine to arginine ratio in order to keep nitric oxide levels at proper levels.

BTW just about every person that has used nitric oxide so far which has come in for testing has either been b-12 defieint or folate defieint at the cellular level..If that does not scare you I do not know what will.

 

[Gutterpump]

Mercury causes undermethylation depletion of gluthone (10 grams gluthione pushes work and make you feel GREAT !! )

I'm going to give this a shot to see if I am undermethylating.
Going to get SAMe and glutathione... what is the best brand of glutathione to get? I'm looking for high dosed caps, 10 grams is a lot of pills! How often would you dose this?

 

[The Matrix]

I'm going to give this a shot to see if I am undermethylating.
Going to get SAMe and glutathione... what is the best brand of glutathione to get? I'm looking for high dosed caps, 10 grams is a lot of pills! How often would you dose this?

I am talking IV pushes (9 grams because they come in 3 grams units)
i am experienting with another way to increase gluthione directly and will report back in a few month to see if it works or not.

 

[MetalMX]

So is SAMe good for both under and overmethylation?

If so im going to pick some up and Gluthonine.

Also what is the difference between Phospholydlserine and Phospholydlcholine?

And what about MSM? That looks like it would be a good supplement to use since it provides nutritionally essential sulfur and methyl groups to the body.

 

[MetalMX]

I have been focusing on this recently. According to Carl Pfeiffer's research, he said histamine is a good indicator of methylation status. Low histamine=overmethylated and high histamine=undermethylated. Of course its a lot more complicated, but he was mainly concerned about the neuro effects of histamine levels. Here is a link that explains in easy to understand terms:

http://jbnat.com/articles/methylation.pdf (mentions mercury as well, like Matrix said)

Whole blood histamine should be 40-60... I was at 150... very undermethylated. I'm doing better on high doses of sam-e.

Damn dude great info from that link.

Repps comin your way! :djparty:

 

[The Matrix]

PC is to clean out the cell membrane
Sam-e is diasterous for people over methylated
Oral gluthione is useless its destroyed once it his the gut.

 

[LeanGuy]

Damn dude great info from that link.

Repps comin your way! :djparty:

Thanks bro!

If you can't get a vitamin IV drip, take N-Acetyl-Cysteine as a glutathione precursor.

 

[pistonpump]

Alot of good info here. I have never heard of under and overmethylation before.... very interesting

 

[Gutterpump]

So is a histamine test the only way to determine if one is under or overmethylated?

 

[Gutterpump]

Actually, I would think in this day and age that it's safe to say most people are undermethylated. Overmethylation would be very rare, and likely self-imposed via over-supplementation.

 

[LeanGuy]

So is a histamine test the only way to determine if one is under or overmethylated?

I don't think there's a definitive test for methylation... histamine is just a possible marker. You're right tho, undermethylation is more common.

 

[aisstea]

PC is to clean out the cell membrane
Sam-e is diasterous for people over methylated
Oral gluthione is useless its destroyed once it his the gut.

Right, that's why you should take injections or take very very high L-cysteine (at least 2500mg each day) and some L-glutamic. It's a very good NO booster and that helps to rebuild mitochondria and that helps rebuild cells+ TH1/TH2 balance.

 

[Gutterpump]

Oral gluthione is useless its destroyed once it his the gut.

I've read that oral glutathione is broken down in the gut into the precursor of glutathione, so in effect it ends up working eventually (but possibly the body only uses what it needs this way, you can't take a high dose of it to push excess absorption). I guess it's safe to just supplement with NAC though, or whatever the precursors of glutathione are.

 

[The Matrix]

Right, that's why you should take injections or take very very high L-cysteine (at least 2500mg each day) and some L-glutamic. It's a very good NO booster and that helps to rebuild mitochondria and that helps rebuild cells+ TH1/TH2 balance.

Please research your information bro because number one l - cysteine is toxic to the body and will not raise gluthione levels, but increase excessive oxidative stress. NAC will help increase gluthione levels possible. Number 2 people that are undermethylated need to stay away from No2 because they have are being exposed or excessive producing it internally which is reasoin for jammed up methylation cycle. Most people that are undermethylated (leads to cancer) have low tolerance to stress that triggers the mutations. To tell if methylation is an issue urine and serum amino acid testing, intracellular testing will verify this..Problem is that practioners do not look at the results close enough to understand what the hell is going on when the results are screaming it right infront of their face.

 

[aisstea]

Please research your information bro because number one l - cysteine is toxic to the body and will not raise gluthione levels, but increase excessive oxidative stress. NAC will help increase gluthione levels possible. Number 2 people that are undermethylated need to stay away from No2 because they have are being exposed or excessive producing it internally which is reasoin for jammed up methylation cycle. Most people that are undermethylated (leads to cancer) have low tolerance to stress that triggers the mutations. To tell if methylation is an issue urine and serum amino acid testing, intracellular testing will verify this..Problem is that practioners do not look at the results close enough to understand what the hell is going on when the results are screaming it right infront of their face.

Bro, when we speek about L Cysteine, than it's clear that we are speaking about N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine. Go to a store and look on cystein products. You'll find products named Cysteine and if you look on the drug information you'll find NAC.

Second, my English is pretty bad. Don't know what undermethylated is and can't find a translation and who told that he is undermethylated? I don't see anybody.

 

[MetalMX]

PC is to clean out the cell membrane
Sam-e is diasterous for people over methylated
Oral gluthione is useless its destroyed once it his the gut.

I see... well im getting the IV Gluthonine that should work out great.

What about MSM what is your opinion on this?

 

[MetalMX]

I don't think there's a definitive test for methylation... histamine is just a possible marker. You're right tho, undermethylation is more common.

In that link you posted it said that 45% of the population is undermethylated while 15% is overmethylated and the rest and neither.

Yeah im doing IV drips with my doctor. Im not sure if he is aware of methylation but the previous doctor i saw did testing for under and overmethylation some kind of test where you go into a dark room and pee i forget the details exactly but my sister did it and she is very undermethylated. I think thats a amino acid urine test i could be wrong i just dont know why its done in the dark maybe matrix can fill us in on this...

 

[MetalMX]

Things to improve undermethylation include:

Taurine, GABA [both precursors to methyl activity in the brain], folic acid, B12, B6, DMG, TMG (and SAMe) - to name a few.

 

[MetalMX]

This might be of interest to anyone following this thread:

http://video.google.com.au/videosearch?q=Methylation&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

This is also describes methylation in simple terms:

[ame="http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=yDF-_qeo4dc"]YouTube - Methylation[/ame]


This also describes methylation as well as an excellent diagram:

http://www.drinkyourvitamins.com/press/HPOMethylation_OlaLoa.pdf

 

[MetalMX]

So what dosage of SAMe per day should be used to improve undermethylation?... ive just picked up some

 

[The Matrix]

So what dosage of SAMe per day should be used to improve undermethylation?... ive just picked up some

start 200 mgs for 3 days then up it after that ..

 

[LeanGuy]

So what dosage of SAMe per day should be used to improve undermethylation?... ive just picked up some

Since I knew my histamines were sky-high I started w/ 200mg twice a day and after 2 weeks ramped up to 400mg twice a day. Some people get insomnia and anxiety... for me it relieved these symptoms. I suspect people with a bad reaction to sam-e aren't undermethylated after all. Oh, you need a good quality brand... it should be in blister packs... I use Jarrow. I also take some TMG and 5-MTHF (activated folic acid) to prevent homocysteine build-up and continue the sam cycle.

 

[EasyEJL]

when you say 200mg a day, do you mean 200mg tablets, or the 400mg tablets that yeild 200mg of actual SAMe. That pissed me off when I first realized it, i was like "wtf, i paid for 400mg tabs"

 

[The Matrix]

when you say 200mg a day, do you mean 200mg tablets, or the 400mg tablets that yeild 200mg of actual SAMe. That pissed me off when I first realized it, i was like "wtf, i paid for 400mg tabs"

400 mgs can nto be broken due to enteric coating.

 

[MetalMX]

Since I knew my histamines were sky-high I started w/ 200mg twice a day and after 2 weeks ramped up to 400mg twice a day. Some people get insomnia and anxiety... for me it relieved these symptoms. I suspect people with a bad reaction to sam-e aren't undermethylated after all. Oh, you need a good quality brand... it should be in blister packs... I use Jarrow. I also take some TMG and 5-MTHF (activated folic acid) to prevent homocysteine build-up and continue the sam cycle.

So Leanguy what noticable differences have you noticed in terms of feeling better?

I dont even have to test my histamine and i know im undermethylated last time i checked my dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline all we're depleted. I even had low cholesterol.

 

[MetalMX]

Undermethylation and zinc depletion.

This is something i recieved from a doctor i saw before. He diagnosed undermethylation in my sister when she saw him.

 

[MetalMX]

Well i had a adverse reaction to SAMe on the second day i also took 200mg but in the evening i started feeling very mentally unwell. I don't know what happened but i totally felt spaced out and its extremely hard to explain, felt i was losing my breath too.

Ill stop the SAMe and first check my urine amino acid levels and blood histamine so i know 100% if im over or undermethylated.

 

[The Matrix]

Undermethylation and zinc depletion.

This is something i recieved from a doctor i saw before. He diagnosed undermethylation in my sister when she saw him.

it did not take a rocket scientist to known you where undermethylated..
It is also a genetic issue as well stemming from mutatation in the genes that I have already mentioned. Sam-e is a direct route..folonic acid, methyl b-12, are the indirect route

 

[EasyEJL]

400 mgs can nto be broken due to enteric coating.

I wasn't talking about breaking them. on 400mg tabs it reads

S-Adenosyl-Methionine tosylate disulfate - 400mg
(yielding 200mg S-Adenosyl-Methionine)

so I was wondering whether he was talking about 400mg tabs, or 400mg active

 

[The Matrix]

I wasn't talking about breaking them. on 400mg tabs it reads

S-Adenosyl-Methionine tosylate disulfate - 400mg
(yielding 200mg S-Adenosyl-Methionine)

so I was wondering whether he was talking about 400mg tabs, or 400mg active

200 mgs active

 

[aisstea]

Well i had a adverse reaction to SAMe on the second day i also took 200mg but in the evening i started feeling very mentally unwell. I don't know what happened but i totally felt spaced out and its extremely hard to explain, felt i was losing my breath too.

Ill stop the SAMe and first check my urine amino acid levels and blood histamine so i know 100% if im over or undermethylated.

I had the same side effects on Sam-e. Got fine after one day.

 

[LeanGuy]

I had the same side effects on Sam-e. Got fine after one day.

This is weird, my wife had the same problem with sam-e, and her histamines are mildly elevated. She's doing fine with methionine + tmg

 

[MetalMX]

This is the place im going to for the DNA testing.

Have a look it has some good diagrams and talking about hypomethylation. They also provide you with appropriate nutrition and supplement therapy once you know where your genetic mutations are.

 

[The Matrix]

This is weird, my wife had the same problem with sam-e, and her histamines are mildly elevated. She's doing fine with methionine + tmg

Look up at my other reply
People may do better on TMG, folonic acid, methyl b-12 and not sam-e

She might do good on glutathione patches too

 

[The Matrix]

This is the place im going to for the DNA testing.

Have a look it has some good diagrams and talking about hypomethylation. They also provide you with appropriate nutrition and supplement therapy once you know where your genetic mutations are.

I am glad that you are getting down to hopefully the root of the problem..now knowing that it may be a genetic link which no medicine can help cure. Also undermethylation can lead in to adrenal fatigue because it can deplete serotonin which starts the cascade of events of high glutamate, high cortisol, high rt3, low dhea, mineral imbalnace..Gear may have been straw that broke the camels back which may have triggered it. I am glad you are with good dr's.. i have an idea you will have an underactive MS over active CBS, under active 5 mthfrr..Depending on where you got the gear it may have been contaminated with some kind of viral infection, especially if you were using tren...That stuff is made in back yard labs..So I hope that you learned a lesson. What caused all this mess would be a tainted or contaminated batch of steroids, over traning, undereating, that stressed your system over taxing your detoxifcation system triggering a genetic mutation.

PS I will just added to your bill HAHAHA

 

[Gutterpump]

I'm going to give SAMe another try.

Starting with 200mg of S-Adenosyl Methionine (from 400mg of SAMe tosylate dusulfate) and then ramping up to 400mg of S-Adenosyl Methionine (from 800mg of SAMe tosylate dusulfate).

Trying this stuff here: https://www.prohealth.com/shop/product.cfm/product__code/PH150/tab/Label#title

It's in the blister packs. Supposed to be high quality. Also going to take NAC + extra Vitamin C with this along with some of their B-12 Extreme sublinguals (full spectrum b-12, including methylcobalamin) and 10mg of NADH as well. Should be a nice new protocol in addition to what I am already taking. NADH sounds promising. ALCAR and NA-RALA is also going to be part of this, and a small amount of l-histadine which I've got in bulk.

 

[EasyEJL]

nice price there too

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah definitely.

I didn't realize that NAC can cause zinc deficiency though, I've ordered 2 bottles each of MST's ZMK + MVP, so my minerals should be more than covered. I still can't stress enough how great MST's ZMK is. Best mineral product I've seen ever. Full spectrum krebs chelated mineral matrix, best I've seen for athletes. Goes far above and beyond simple ZMA. I seriously don't know what I would do without my MVP/ZMK..nothing comes close to it for me where it comes to supplementation.

 

[Gutterpump]

Btw, does anyone know if it's an issue taking so many acetylated products?

I once read a concern about it before but can't remember the source.

 

[MetalMX]

I am glad that you are getting down to hopefully the root of the problem..now knowing that it may be a genetic link which no medicine can help cure. Also undermethylation can lead in to adrenal fatigue because it can deplete serotonin which starts the cascade of events of high glutamate, high cortisol, high rt3, low dhea, mineral imbalnace..Gear may have been straw that broke the camels back which may have triggered it. I am glad you are with good dr's.. i have an idea you will have an underactive MS over active CBS, under active 5 mthfrr..Depending on where you got the gear it may have been contaminated with some kind of viral infection, especially if you were using tren...That stuff is made in back yard labs..So I hope that you learned a lesson. What caused all this mess would be a tainted or contaminated batch of steroids, over traning, undereating, that stressed your system over taxing your detoxifcation system triggering a genetic mutation.

PS I will just added to your bill HAHAHA

Yeah i used tren as well as test... i hope to god things will improve for me. Im not messing with gear ever again thats for sure. Coupled with arimidex use which further suppressed my immune system while on possibly contaminated roids ugh! bad decisions...

lol added to my bill the testing is already going to cost me a fortune.

 

[crazyfool405]

subbed so i can get an email saying im subscribed so i can come back to this at a later date and soak up information and learn as much as i can...

 

[The Matrix]

Yeah i used tren as well as test... i hope to god things will improve for me. Im not messing with gear ever again thats for sure. Coupled with arimidex use which further suppressed my immune system while on possibly contaminated roids ugh! bad decisions...

lol added to my bill the testing is already going to cost me a fortune.

I think the problem lies in contamination of TREN would be the lost logical explaination for everything. I have ran across this with alot of my clients who where body builders and experiencing un explained fatigue and chronic fatigue symptoms which dr's had no clue where they came from. Infections also can alter the methylation cycle which could explain alot of your other symptoms as well. Mercury and infections go hand and hand.

 

[Gutterpump]

Found something interesting + related today:

The ketogenic diet increases mitochondrial glutathione levels
The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, low carbohydrate diet...We sought to determine whether the KD improves mitochondrial redox status....GSH (glutathione) is a major mitochondrial antioxidant that protects mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) against oxidative damage...the results demonstrate that the KD up-regulates GSH biosynthesis, enhances mitochondrial antioxidant status, and protects mtDNA from oxidant-induced damage.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/18466343

 

[EasyEJL]

Hmm well damn. thats interesting

 

[The Matrix]

Found something interesting + related today:

Provided the proper substrates are there which need to be taken in a higher dosage other wise you could end up with fatty liver and diabetes on these types of diet. Ketodiets are for diabetes or seizures patients.