Undermethylation and OverMethylation?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).
    The Betaine HCL that I have, says digestive enzyme on the bottle, and also says in brackets (trimethyleglycine TMG). So now I am confused.

    http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=VS-1196

    It's betain HCL + Pepsin. In yellow at the bottom of the bottle, it says (trimethyleglycine TMG).


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The Betaine HCL that I have, says digestive enzyme on the bottle, and also says in brackets (trimethyleglycine TMG). So now I am confused.
    Someone didn't know what they were doing, labelwise

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylglycine
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless
    •   
       


  3. Yeah, I think I should stick to NOW brand products for staple supps like this. I'm pretty sure what I've been taking is not TMG then.. Thanks.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Yeah, I think I should stick to NOW brand products for staple supps like this. I'm pretty sure what I've been taking is not TMG then.. Thanks.
    TMG and Betaine HCL are the same thing. Usually, when TMG is mixed with pepsin, it's called Betaine HCL. I used to just take TMG, until I read what Janz linked about the combined product.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I don't know anything about NT factor.

    I'm not on many supplements, just the basics and a few drugs.

    Here is my regime:

    MST's MVP/ZMK combo (the best enhanced multi-vitamin and mineral complex out there, great products)
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...p-120-cap.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...-120-tabs.html
    Multi-Enzyme complex
    Betain HCL
    NAC
    Liv.52
    Now's Thyroid Energy (natural/nutritional thyroid support)
    Pro Health Extreme B-12

    Occassionally taking Pro Health NADH (10mg or 20mg), depending on how I feel. Taking this with the sublingual B-12 is good for natural energy when needed.

    HCG - 450iu eod
    Arimidex - .5mg eod
    Caber - 500mcg 2-3x per week
    Isocort - 6 tabs per day

    SAMe - 400mg active pd (going to increase this to 800mg pd)

    Adaptogens:
    Ashwaganda
    Rhodiola
    Schizandra


    Things I have stopped: deprenyl and stablon. Deprenyl wasn't good for me on an ongoing basis. Didn't work as planned. Stablon is amazing but it's underdosed at the recommended daily intake. Have to increase the dose and it works amazingly well, but it's cost prohibitive.
    Gutter, I take rhodiola. What do you find the other 2 adaptogens do for you. As I recall, they are for adrenal support, I think. Thanks.

    Also, I find my Betaine HCL + Pepsin smells sulfurous, like TMG.
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  6. Since taking the isocort and adding in ashwaganda + schizandra, and really reducing carbs to less than 20grams per day, I feel awake all day.

    Before this, I used to fall asleep at my desk in the afternoon and fight to keep my eyes open.

    This is a really good thing considering that I don't sleep very well at night. I am still waking up early in the morning. At least 2-3 times that I know of. I try to go to sleep by 10:30 most nights and am up by 6, but I still consciously wake up in between the times of 3-5am, sometimes more often earlier in the night. I am not having any troubles falling asleep though. The interesting thing is that I consciously awaken, but I fall asleep easily again..

    Honestly, I can't speak about individual effects of these herbs though. I am just taking them in the hopes they can help balance me out somehow since I have crappy sleep and a stressful life/job.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I don't know anything about NT factor.

    I'm not on many supplements, just the basics and a few drugs.

    Here is my regime:

    MST's MVP/ZMK combo (the best enhanced multi-vitamin and mineral complex out there, great products)
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...p-120-cap.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...-120-tabs.html
    Multi-Enzyme complex
    Betain HCL
    NAC
    Liv.52
    Now's Thyroid Energy (natural/nutritional thyroid support)
    Pro Health Extreme B-12

    Occassionally taking Pro Health NADH (10mg or 20mg), depending on how I feel. Taking this with the sublingual B-12 is good for natural energy when needed.

    HCG - 450iu eod
    Arimidex - .5mg eod
    Caber - 500mcg 2-3x per week
    Isocort - 6 tabs per day

    SAMe - 400mg active pd (going to increase this to 800mg pd)

    Adaptogens:
    Ashwaganda
    Rhodiola
    Schizandra


    Things I have stopped: deprenyl and stablon. Deprenyl wasn't good for me on an ongoing basis. Didn't work as planned. Stablon is amazing but it's underdosed at the recommended daily intake. Have to increase the dose and it works amazingly well, but it's cost prohibitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    TMG and Betaine HCL are the same thing. Usually, when TMG is mixed with pepsin, it's called Betaine HCL. I used to just take TMG, until I read what Janz linked about the combined product.
    Whoops, as dsade posted, looks like Betaine (not Betaine HCL) is the same as TMG. It does seem like TMG gave me more of a SAMe effect than does Betaine HCL, which is what I take now, along with SAMe. I don't have digestive problems, so I may return to TMG for better methylation.

    See this:
    http://www.raysahelian.com/betaine.html

  8. i'm doing 800mg a day active SAMe now, only about 5 days in from a month of 400/day

  9. I started at 200mg for one week then went to 400mg in the am for this past week.

    Maybe I will wait a couple more weeks before increasing again. 400 early am 400 in early pm sounds good.

  10. yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up

  11. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up
    God damn I started a freaken trend again .
    Reason why sam-e works is because it replenish glutathione levels in hard working athletes. Creatine is the main fuel that is used up to produce sam-e. So people that are undermethylated need more creatine then usual because of hard traniing and increase need for sam-e production to produce gluthione to combat free radicals. Make sense. All hard working athletes should be on a small dosage of sam-e just to keep things balanced. No wonder athletes end up with depression because of depletion of sam-e. No need for paxil..

    Here is a letter i recieved from a freind I was helping

    Hey Shawn,

    Sorry for bothering you again, but in case you have time to comment this, I would be grateful. Just wanted to tell you that things are getting better.

    I've been taking 400 mg Sam-e for nearly two weeks now and I have improved a lot. I haven't noticed any adverse effects yet, besides slight gastric discomfort. I don't need sleep aids anymore, but I take melatonin, as it is an antioxidant too.

    I feel normal feelings again and I can make plans. I've learned a lot of stress management, thanks to you too. I'm still rather tired on occasion, but not as much anymore. I'm not anxious anymore and my vision is much clearer, which is great.

    My cortisol tests came back, not the 24 h urine yet, but the AM cortisol value was 433 (150-650). Plus normal reaction to dexamethasone suppression test, which was no wonder at all, of course.

    I've been taking 1/2 grain armour up to now. I'm still waiting to get fT3, rT3 and DHEAS results. fT4 was 13.9 (11-20), but I know that it's mostly due to armour that fT4 is down a bit. The doc told me that I can basically do what I want with armour, either continue taking it or drop it off if it doesn't make me feel better. Yep, that's very professional, ain't it

    I have hypothyroid symptoms, but at least my mood is brighter. One doc told me that it's all in my mind if I can't run or work out. He said I'm just so afraid of it and that it's a psychological burden for me. Yeah right. He also told me that there's no use taking antioxidants. He also thinks it's placebo if Sam-e helps me. Screw those docs, I know better and I'm so damn confident about it now.

    I'm having my fatty acid, mineral and vitamin balance checked. Plus Ferritin, as well. It's quite exciting to see the results actually. I considered having my autonomous nervous system balanced with acupuncture. I finally found a doc that wanted to help me. Too bad he's not such an expert in hormonal balance or endocrinology.

    Well, have a good day and thank you so much for having faith. I'm starting to get my life back and after all I've learned so many exciting things about the human body and myself, that I'm grateful for this terrible experience. Now I understand how much positive thinking can help. I've become much stronger.

    -Sofia-
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  12. I'm doing it largely for the joint support, my thumb arthritis is nearing the point of needing surgery

  13. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up
    PM me on that one....I loves me some SAMe
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  14. That's about what I'm paying for my proSAMe

  15. But will it do the same job as other brands..Thats the question..800 mgs is a good dosage no need to go any higher.

    Pm me as well i be interested in checking it out..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).


    Ugh... well this i didn't know.

  17. I would recommend injectable SOD.

    BL

  18. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    God damn I started a freaken trend again .
    Reason why sam-e works is because it replenish glutathione levels in hard working athletes.
    Well, I took it also to rise my glutathione back in the days... but had the strange side effects like many other people here. The only one good way for me was very high NAC+Glutamin (well, don't know the english name). Felt after a time (2-3 months) great benefits in my immune system.

  19. I was doing some research and came across this great post by someone online, some interesting facts and advice concerning SAMe (the original post is about 4 yrs old though):

    Two forms of SAM-e are available, sulfate-p-toluenesulfonate (also called tosylate) and butanedisulfonate. The oral bioavailability of the tosylate salt is 1%, and the oral bioavailability of the butanedisulfonate salt is 5%. (Stramentinoli G, Gualano M, Galli-Kienle M. Intestinal absorption of S-adenosyl-L-methionine. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1979;209:323-6.) For this reason lots of people have recommended the butanedisulfonate form, and GNC and Nature Made both used to sell that form. But they have both switched to selling the tosylate form as far as I can tell. The only source I have been able to find for the butanedisulfonate salt is a site called Young Again, which sells it for arthritis (http://www.youngagain.com/same.html). It costs about 50 cents per 400mg pill. You can reduce the price a bit by buying two bottles at a time, for which they will give you a third bottle at no extra charge. Of course, that still works out to be quite a lot, since for many people the antidepressant effect does not kick in until the 1600 mg per day level. If you do start taking SAM-e, but sure to get enough B vitamins, especially folate, B6 and B12. There is some evidence that SAM-e does not work as well without enough B vitamins. And take SAM-e on an empty stomach about half an hour before a meal to increase absorption. You might also try supplementing with a gram or so of methionine. There was a recent animal study that indicated that taking methionine might increase the level of SAM-e in the brain. (The effect of methionine and S-adenosylmethionine on S-adenosylmethionine levels in the rat brain)
    I've also read that it can be fairly common for SAMe to cause Akathisia....and that it may take a long time after discontinuation for this to disappear or improve.

  20. I believe I'm about to re-start a Sam-e protocol and also add in a few more ingredients. I'm not well-versed in under/over methylation. When I took sam-e in the past, I did notice positive well-being from it. And it seemed to help slightly with moderate back pain at the time.

    What I'd like to know presently...how does methlyation relate to inflammation? I haven't seen any literature that speaks directly on this. But I assume there is a correlation. A benefit often mentioned of Sam-e is reduction in joint pain. If I'm an under-methylator and I improve this, would inflammation also be reduced?

  21. Quote Originally Posted by thenxtgrt1 View Post
    I believe I'm about to re-start a Sam-e protocol and also add in a few more ingredients. I'm not well-versed in under/over methylation. When I took sam-e in the past, I did notice positive well-being from it. And it seemed to help slightly with moderate back pain at the time.

    What I'd like to know presently...how does methlyation relate to inflammation? I haven't seen any literature that speaks directly on this. But I assume there is a correlation. A benefit often mentioned of Sam-e is reduction in joint pain. If I'm an under-methylator and I improve this, would inflammation also be reduced?
    SAm-3 increases glucosamine which helps in joint pains.
    I have all my athletes take it because it helps replenish gluthione stores
    along with 600-1200 mgs NAC.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  22. I really find this information to be really informative. I suffer from Hg toxicity as I had amalgams in my mouth. ALso Cu i really high. I am taking Mo(Molybdenum) and VitC for this. Definitely, I am undermethyled as I have food allergies and MCS(mild). My eyes get really red when I go to the mall or shops. I have couple of questions

    1. Whenever I eat fatty foods evenlittle bit extremeties of my hand and feet get numb which to me is very clear from "Low Bile flow". I am sensitive to soy it effects my thyroid right away, i feel it. Took Milk thistle in the past now my saliva gets really foamy whenever I take it.
    What should I do.

    2. Tried taking TMG 50mg but experienced lot of anger so stopped. Why??? and what should I do???

    3. DIM makes my eyes red and feeel lot of burning. Isn't suppose to be good for you than why am I reacting to it????

    4. Wake up every night 3-4 hrs and can't go back to sleep.

    Thanks for listening !!!!
    Regards

  23. Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I'm doing it largely for the joint support, my thumb arthritis is nearing the point of needing surgery
    Investigate Natural Stem Cell Theraphy.

    look at web site of
    dremagaziner.com

    or any similar

    get you self a booklet ($2.95)

    Natural Stem Cell Therapy Testimonial Book $2.95 each
    http://healthnewsweb.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=130

    I was talking with Dr E. Magaziner after my distal biceps tendon surgery.
    This theraphy was not applicable to speed healing of my tendon,
    but if I had a sprain it would work.
    I also have arthritis in my thumb, so I asked about it.
    He said yes, that would be good application.
    I am retired, this thing is not paid by insurance,
    it does not hurt al the time.
    So I am waiting.

    It is 5-6 sessions, $700 each

    He also does prolotheraphy, similar in application, $500 per session.
    From point of view of mechanics it is wery similar procedure.
    But he have to buy $200 kit that he uses to extract cells from your blood for that injection.
    .
    .

  24. Matrix - do you agree SAMe should be taken on an empty stomach??
  25. Matrix - Need your input


    I really find your post about methylation to be very informative. I suffer from Hg toxicity as I had amalgams in my mouth. ALso Cu i really high. I am taking Mo(Molybdenum) and VitC for this. Definitely, I am undermethyled as I have food allergies and MCS(mild). My eyes get really red when I go to the mall or shops. I have couple of questions

    1. Whenever I eat fatty foods evenlittle bit extremeties of my hand and feet get numb which to me is very clear from "Low Bile flow". I am sensitive to soy it effects my thyroid right away, i feel it. Took Milk thistle in the past now my saliva gets really foamy whenever I take it.
    What should I do.

    2. Tried taking TMG 50mg but experienced lot of anger so stopped. Why??? and what should I do???

    3. DIM makes my eyes red and feeel lot of burning. Isn't suppose to be good for you than why am I reacting to it????

    4. Wake up every night 3-4 hrs and can't go back to sleep.

    Thanks for listening !!!!
    Regards[/QUOTE]

  26. Quote Originally Posted by coolhammer View Post
    I really find your post about methylation to be very informative. I suffer from Hg toxicity as I had amalgams in my mouth. ALso Cu i really high. I am taking Mo(Molybdenum) and VitC for this. Definitely, I am undermethyled as I have food allergies and MCS(mild). My eyes get really red when I go to the mall or shops. I have couple of questions

    1. Whenever I eat fatty foods evenlittle bit extremeties of my hand and feet get numb which to me is very clear from "Low Bile flow". I am sensitive to soy it effects my thyroid right away, i feel it. Took Milk thistle in the past now my saliva gets really foamy whenever I take it.
    What should I do.

    2. Tried taking TMG 50mg but experienced lot of anger so stopped. Why??? and what should I do???

    3. DIM makes my eyes red and feeel lot of burning. Isn't suppose to be good for you than why am I reacting to it????

    4. Wake up every night 3-4 hrs and can't go back to sleep.

    Thanks for listening !!!!
    Regards
    [/QUOTE]


    Dim can be over loading the liver and methylation cycle. If you are already low on methylation you are getting over flood of the bad estrogens that are being recirulated back in to blood stream and not being escorted out proprely so you are getting an estrogen over load from the metabolites lingering around. This is putting more stress on your liver. I would swith to i50 mgs od iodoral which converts the bad estrones into estriol which is the protective kind. This would reduce liver stress tremendously by reducing stress on methylation cyles

    When ever my e2 goes high my eyes will start burning at night time for no reason once e2 is in check that stops the next night. You can also look at the bowel as primary source of estrogen because dyboisis will increase cirulatng estrogens as well which have not been properly packaged for removal.

    Every 3-4 hours is a sign your liver is imbalanced or your cortisol/thyroid is out of wack. Simple cortisol saliva test would answer that. in order to interpret your thyroid function you need to have proper lab work done. Please start a new thread so it could be easier to follow.

    Moly, seleneium are essential for proper methylation as b-12, folonic acid, p5p,

    if you are serious about your health and want to get better PM
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by jmh80 View Post
    Matrix - do you agree SAMe should be taken on an empty stomach??
    Yes 20-30 minutes before meals best time are before breakfast and mid afternoon give good stablility.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  28. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Yes 20-30 minutes before meals best time are before breakfast and mid afternoon give good stablility.
    Hey bro, have a question. When people come out to see you, do you muscle test with foods and supplements to see what someone needs?

  29. Quote Originally Posted by health4life24 View Post
    Hey bro, have a question. When people come out to see you, do you muscle test with foods and supplements to see what someone needs?
    Muscle testing I have mastered to accuracy of 98% as i have proved time and time again. Even the skeptics minds are changed. The technique I use is not used by traditional testers and allows me to further assesment.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    Muscle testing I have mastered to accuracy of 98% as i have proved time and time again. Even the skeptics minds are changed. The technique I use is not used by traditional testers and allows me to further assesment.
    That's cool! So through muscle testing, you know what supplements and diet someone needs to be on? I used to go to a holistic doctor that did muscle testing. I'm wondering that if you put different food and supplement items within someone's energy field if you could tell whether it was beneficial or not. Would help eliminate allot of guessing.
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