Undermethylation and OverMethylation? - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 2

Undermethylation and OverMethylation?

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    I'm going to give SAMe another try.

    Starting with 200mg of S-Adenosyl Methionine (from 400mg of SAMe tosylate dusulfate) and then ramping up to 400mg of S-Adenosyl Methionine (from 800mg of SAMe tosylate dusulfate).

    Trying this stuff here: https://www.prohealth.com/shop/produ...ab/Label#title

    It's in the blister packs. Supposed to be high quality. Also going to take NAC + extra Vitamin C with this along with some of their B-12 Extreme sublinguals (full spectrum b-12, including methylcobalamin) and 10mg of NADH as well. Should be a nice new protocol in addition to what I am already taking. NADH sounds promising. ALCAR and NA-RALA is also going to be part of this, and a small amount of l-histadine which I've got in bulk.

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    nice price there too
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    Yeah definitely.

    I didn't realize that NAC can cause zinc deficiency though, I've ordered 2 bottles each of MST's ZMK + MVP, so my minerals should be more than covered. I still can't stress enough how great MST's ZMK is. Best mineral product I've seen ever. Full spectrum krebs chelated mineral matrix, best I've seen for athletes. Goes far above and beyond simple ZMA. I seriously don't know what I would do without my MVP/ZMK..nothing comes close to it for me where it comes to supplementation.
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    Btw, does anyone know if it's an issue taking so many acetylated products?

    I once read a concern about it before but can't remember the source.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    I am glad that you are getting down to hopefully the root of the problem..now knowing that it may be a genetic link which no medicine can help cure. Also undermethylation can lead in to adrenal fatigue because it can deplete serotonin which starts the cascade of events of high glutamate, high cortisol, high rt3, low dhea, mineral imbalnace..Gear may have been straw that broke the camels back which may have triggered it. I am glad you are with good dr's.. i have an idea you will have an underactive MS over active CBS, under active 5 mthfrr..Depending on where you got the gear it may have been contaminated with some kind of viral infection, especially if you were using tren...That stuff is made in back yard labs..So I hope that you learned a lesson. What caused all this mess would be a tainted or contaminated batch of steroids, over traning, undereating, that stressed your system over taxing your detoxifcation system triggering a genetic mutation.

    PS I will just added to your bill HAHAHA

    Yeah i used tren as well as test... i hope to god things will improve for me. Im not messing with gear ever again thats for sure. Coupled with arimidex use which further suppressed my immune system while on possibly contaminated roids ugh! bad decisions...

    lol added to my bill the testing is already going to cost me a fortune.
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    subbed so i can get an email saying im subscribed so i can come back to this at a later date and soak up information and learn as much as i can...
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMX View Post
    Yeah i used tren as well as test... i hope to god things will improve for me. Im not messing with gear ever again thats for sure. Coupled with arimidex use which further suppressed my immune system while on possibly contaminated roids ugh! bad decisions...

    lol added to my bill the testing is already going to cost me a fortune.
    I think the problem lies in contamination of TREN would be the lost logical explaination for everything. I have ran across this with alot of my clients who where body builders and experiencing un explained fatigue and chronic fatigue symptoms which dr's had no clue where they came from. Infections also can alter the methylation cycle which could explain alot of your other symptoms as well. Mercury and infections go hand and hand.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Found something interesting + related today:

    The ketogenic diet increases mitochondrial glutathione levels
    The ketogenic diet (KD) is a high-fat, low carbohydrate diet...We sought to determine whether the KD improves mitochondrial redox status....GSH (glutathione) is a major mitochondrial antioxidant that protects mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) against oxidative damage...the results demonstrate that the KD up-regulates GSH biosynthesis, enhances mitochondrial antioxidant status, and protects mtDNA from oxidant-induced damage.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/18466343
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    Hmm well damn. thats interesting
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Found something interesting + related today:
    Provided the proper substrates are there which need to be taken in a higher dosage other wise you could end up with fatty liver and diabetes on these types of diet. Ketodiets are for diabetes or seizures patients.
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    I feel great / better whenever I go on a keto diet. I also pay more attention to eating properly when I diet like this (nutritious). I make everything count. I don't see how it can cause diabetes. It helps to prevent and to cure type-II diabetes / insulin resistance.

    I also make sure to have a lot of evoo,coconut oil and MCT's. They make up the greater portion of fat when I diet like this.

    I could see someone getting a fatty liver if they are eating far too much fat. But if your consuming enough where your body feeds on it's own fat stores often enough, then there shouldn't be much internal (visceral) body fat present. CKD is where it's at =D and switching between CS + CR diets.
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    Methylation question for anyone here....

    I have been taking a lot of Betain HCL and didn't quite clue in until recently that this is actually TMG, which is a methyl donor. I take about 5-7 grams per day spread out with my meals to aid digestion.

    I am also taking 400mg (active) SAMe and feel fine at this dose, never felt bad from SAMe. Is it safe to increase my active dose of SAMe even though I am taking this much TMG? I am also taking methylcobalamin + NAC daily. If I increase my SAMe, is this too much of a good thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Methylation question for anyone here....

    I have been taking a lot of Betain HCL and didn't quite clue in until recently that this is actually TMG, which is a methyl donor. I take about 5-7 grams per day spread out with my meals to aid digestion.

    I am also taking 400mg (active) SAMe and feel fine at this dose, never felt bad from SAMe. Is it safe to increase my active dose of SAMe even though I am taking this much TMG? I am also taking methylcobalamin + NAC daily. If I increase my SAMe, is this too much of a good thing?


    I think 400mg of SAMe per day is fine probably no need to increase it as your already taking other supplements which improve methylation.


    I feel a lot better when i take Betaine HCL digestion improves 100% as well as other things, gota remember to pick some up.

    Also i would pick up some Sytemic Enzymes a product called Vitalzym is very good. These enzymes are involved in thousand of reactions in the body. Contains protease, lipase, amylase, cellulase and a few others.

    Vitamins function as co-enzymes, these work directly.
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    Ya I am using other enzymes besides betain HCL. I am double dosing, taking four of these with every meal

    http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=VS-1195

    I want to try increasing SAMe though because I have been spending a lot of money on stablon as an aid for seratonin/dopamine. SAMe is so much cheaper in comparison, and hopefully it can make my caber work better as well by allowing me to produce more dopamine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Ya I am using other enzymes besides betain HCL. I am double dosing, taking four of these with every meal

    http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=VS-1195

    I want to try increasing SAMe though because I have been spending a lot of money on stablon as an aid for seratonin/dopamine. SAMe is so much cheaper in comparison, and hopefully it can make my caber work better as well by allowing me to produce more dopamine.
    What are you taking/how many supplements are you on?

    I wouldn't go crazy with supplements. Im the type of person who would take 300 supplements per day but ive stopped that now i realise that could lead to a lot more harm then good.

    Im still in the process of testing to figure out what i need to be on exactly.


    What do you think about this product called NT Factor?... worth getting?

    https://www.prohealth.com/shop/produ...ab/Label#title
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    What im confused about when i read about undermethylation and high histamine on some sites it says treatment is centered around antifolates such as calcium which bind histamine and release it into the blood stream as well as methionine which acts as a methyl donor.

    Then i have read elsewhere folic acid is used for undermethylation So should we be using folate or not for undermethylation?

    I have already know i have the MTHFR gene mutation. Soon i will know everything with genome testing.

    Also urine kryptopyrroles is the diagnosis in pyroluria. According to proponents, one of the pyrroles (kryptopyrrole or mauve factor) is a by-product of improper hemoglobin synthesis.[5][6] However, other pyrroles have been implicated, and what literature exists on this topic is unclear.[7] These pyrroles are then said to bind to vitamin B6, and zinc and are eliminated through urine, potentially causing deficiencies of these compounds. If deficiency is maintained then this leads to ADHD, schizophrenia etc...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyroluria

    Does genova do the urine kryptopyroles test?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Methylation question for anyone here....

    I have been taking a lot of Betain HCL and didn't quite clue in until recently that this is actually TMG, which is a methyl donor. I take about 5-7 grams per day spread out with my meals to aid digestion.

    I am also taking 400mg (active) SAMe and feel fine at this dose, never felt bad from SAMe. Is it safe to increase my active dose of SAMe even though I am taking this much TMG? I am also taking methylcobalamin + NAC daily. If I increase my SAMe, is this too much of a good thing?
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).
    i had wondered that during this conversation, as i have powdered TMG and it tastes NOTHING like the betaine hcl tabs
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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalMX View Post
    What are you taking/how many supplements are you on?

    I wouldn't go crazy with supplements. Im the type of person who would take 300 supplements per day but ive stopped that now i realise that could lead to a lot more harm then good.

    Im still in the process of testing to figure out what i need to be on exactly.


    What do you think about this product called NT Factor?... worth getting?

    https://www.prohealth.com/shop/produ...ab/Label#title
    I don't know anything about NT factor.

    I'm not on many supplements, just the basics and a few drugs.

    Here is my regime:

    MST's MVP/ZMK combo (the best enhanced multi-vitamin and mineral complex out there, great products)
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...p-120-cap.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...-120-tabs.html
    Multi-Enzyme complex
    Betain HCL
    NAC
    Liv.52
    Now's Thyroid Energy (natural/nutritional thyroid support)
    Pro Health Extreme B-12

    Occassionally taking Pro Health NADH (10mg or 20mg), depending on how I feel. Taking this with the sublingual B-12 is good for natural energy when needed.

    HCG - 450iu eod
    Arimidex - .5mg eod
    Caber - 500mcg 2-3x per week
    Isocort - 6 tabs per day

    SAMe - 400mg active pd (going to increase this to 800mg pd)

    Adaptogens:
    Ashwaganda
    Rhodiola
    Schizandra


    Things I have stopped: deprenyl and stablon. Deprenyl wasn't good for me on an ongoing basis. Didn't work as planned. Stablon is amazing but it's underdosed at the recommended daily intake. Have to increase the dose and it works amazingly well, but it's cost prohibitive.
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    I should also mention that I occassionally take ALCAR (taken with a special type of vit C) and NA-R-ALA. ALCAR is great stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).
    The Betaine HCL that I have, says digestive enzyme on the bottle, and also says in brackets (trimethyleglycine TMG). So now I am confused.

    http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/e...jsp?id=VS-1196

    It's betain HCL + Pepsin. In yellow at the bottom of the bottle, it says (trimethyleglycine TMG).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    The Betaine HCL that I have, says digestive enzyme on the bottle, and also says in brackets (trimethyleglycine TMG). So now I am confused.
    Someone didn't know what they were doing, labelwise

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trimethylglycine
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    Yeah, I think I should stick to NOW brand products for staple supps like this. I'm pretty sure what I've been taking is not TMG then.. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    Yeah, I think I should stick to NOW brand products for staple supps like this. I'm pretty sure what I've been taking is not TMG then.. Thanks.
    TMG and Betaine HCL are the same thing. Usually, when TMG is mixed with pepsin, it's called Betaine HCL. I used to just take TMG, until I read what Janz linked about the combined product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I don't know anything about NT factor.

    I'm not on many supplements, just the basics and a few drugs.

    Here is my regime:

    MST's MVP/ZMK combo (the best enhanced multi-vitamin and mineral complex out there, great products)
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...p-120-cap.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...-120-tabs.html
    Multi-Enzyme complex
    Betain HCL
    NAC
    Liv.52
    Now's Thyroid Energy (natural/nutritional thyroid support)
    Pro Health Extreme B-12

    Occassionally taking Pro Health NADH (10mg or 20mg), depending on how I feel. Taking this with the sublingual B-12 is good for natural energy when needed.

    HCG - 450iu eod
    Arimidex - .5mg eod
    Caber - 500mcg 2-3x per week
    Isocort - 6 tabs per day

    SAMe - 400mg active pd (going to increase this to 800mg pd)

    Adaptogens:
    Ashwaganda
    Rhodiola
    Schizandra


    Things I have stopped: deprenyl and stablon. Deprenyl wasn't good for me on an ongoing basis. Didn't work as planned. Stablon is amazing but it's underdosed at the recommended daily intake. Have to increase the dose and it works amazingly well, but it's cost prohibitive.
    Gutter, I take rhodiola. What do you find the other 2 adaptogens do for you. As I recall, they are for adrenal support, I think. Thanks.

    Also, I find my Betaine HCL + Pepsin smells sulfurous, like TMG.
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    Since taking the isocort and adding in ashwaganda + schizandra, and really reducing carbs to less than 20grams per day, I feel awake all day.

    Before this, I used to fall asleep at my desk in the afternoon and fight to keep my eyes open.

    This is a really good thing considering that I don't sleep very well at night. I am still waking up early in the morning. At least 2-3 times that I know of. I try to go to sleep by 10:30 most nights and am up by 6, but I still consciously wake up in between the times of 3-5am, sometimes more often earlier in the night. I am not having any troubles falling asleep though. The interesting thing is that I consciously awaken, but I fall asleep easily again..

    Honestly, I can't speak about individual effects of these herbs though. I am just taking them in the hopes they can help balance me out somehow since I have crappy sleep and a stressful life/job.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutterpump View Post
    I don't know anything about NT factor.

    I'm not on many supplements, just the basics and a few drugs.

    Here is my regime:

    MST's MVP/ZMK combo (the best enhanced multi-vitamin and mineral complex out there, great products)
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...p-120-cap.html
    http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/m...-120-tabs.html
    Multi-Enzyme complex
    Betain HCL
    NAC
    Liv.52
    Now's Thyroid Energy (natural/nutritional thyroid support)
    Pro Health Extreme B-12

    Occassionally taking Pro Health NADH (10mg or 20mg), depending on how I feel. Taking this with the sublingual B-12 is good for natural energy when needed.

    HCG - 450iu eod
    Arimidex - .5mg eod
    Caber - 500mcg 2-3x per week
    Isocort - 6 tabs per day

    SAMe - 400mg active pd (going to increase this to 800mg pd)

    Adaptogens:
    Ashwaganda
    Rhodiola
    Schizandra


    Things I have stopped: deprenyl and stablon. Deprenyl wasn't good for me on an ongoing basis. Didn't work as planned. Stablon is amazing but it's underdosed at the recommended daily intake. Have to increase the dose and it works amazingly well, but it's cost prohibitive.
    Quote Originally Posted by jinxie View Post
    TMG and Betaine HCL are the same thing. Usually, when TMG is mixed with pepsin, it's called Betaine HCL. I used to just take TMG, until I read what Janz linked about the combined product.
    Whoops, as dsade posted, looks like Betaine (not Betaine HCL) is the same as TMG. It does seem like TMG gave me more of a SAMe effect than does Betaine HCL, which is what I take now, along with SAMe. I don't have digestive problems, so I may return to TMG for better methylation.

    See this:
    http://www.raysahelian.com/betaine.html
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    i'm doing 800mg a day active SAMe now, only about 5 days in from a month of 400/day
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    I started at 200mg for one week then went to 400mg in the am for this past week.

    Maybe I will wait a couple more weeks before increasing again. 400 early am 400 in early pm sounds good.
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    yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up
    This space for rent

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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up
    God damn I started a freaken trend again .
    Reason why sam-e works is because it replenish glutathione levels in hard working athletes. Creatine is the main fuel that is used up to produce sam-e. So people that are undermethylated need more creatine then usual because of hard traniing and increase need for sam-e production to produce gluthione to combat free radicals. Make sense. All hard working athletes should be on a small dosage of sam-e just to keep things balanced. No wonder athletes end up with depression because of depletion of sam-e. No need for paxil..

    Here is a letter i recieved from a freind I was helping

    Hey Shawn,

    Sorry for bothering you again, but in case you have time to comment this, I would be grateful. Just wanted to tell you that things are getting better.

    I've been taking 400 mg Sam-e for nearly two weeks now and I have improved a lot. I haven't noticed any adverse effects yet, besides slight gastric discomfort. I don't need sleep aids anymore, but I take melatonin, as it is an antioxidant too.

    I feel normal feelings again and I can make plans. I've learned a lot of stress management, thanks to you too. I'm still rather tired on occasion, but not as much anymore. I'm not anxious anymore and my vision is much clearer, which is great.

    My cortisol tests came back, not the 24 h urine yet, but the AM cortisol value was 433 (150-650). Plus normal reaction to dexamethasone suppression test, which was no wonder at all, of course.

    I've been taking 1/2 grain armour up to now. I'm still waiting to get fT3, rT3 and DHEAS results. fT4 was 13.9 (11-20), but I know that it's mostly due to armour that fT4 is down a bit. The doc told me that I can basically do what I want with armour, either continue taking it or drop it off if it doesn't make me feel better. Yep, that's very professional, ain't it

    I have hypothyroid symptoms, but at least my mood is brighter. One doc told me that it's all in my mind if I can't run or work out. He said I'm just so afraid of it and that it's a psychological burden for me. Yeah right. He also told me that there's no use taking antioxidants. He also thinks it's placebo if Sam-e helps me. Screw those docs, I know better and I'm so damn confident about it now.

    I'm having my fatty acid, mineral and vitamin balance checked. Plus Ferritin, as well. It's quite exciting to see the results actually. I considered having my autonomous nervous system balanced with acupuncture. I finally found a doc that wanted to help me. Too bad he's not such an expert in hormonal balance or endocrinology.

    Well, have a good day and thank you so much for having faith. I'm starting to get my life back and after all I've learned so many exciting things about the human body and myself, that I'm grateful for this terrible experience. Now I understand how much positive thinking can help. I've become much stronger.

    -Sofia-
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
  32. Board Moderator
    Never enough
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    I'm doing it largely for the joint support, my thumb arthritis is nearing the point of needing surgery
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    yeah, I found a reliable place where i could manage 800 a day for $1/day finally, that was why i went up
    PM me on that one....I loves me some SAMe
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    That's about what I'm paying for my proSAMe
  35. Elite Member
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    But will it do the same job as other brands..Thats the question..800 mgs is a good dosage no need to go any higher.

    Pm me as well i be interested in checking it out..
    I am not a medical Dr, please keep in mind that this answer is for information purposes only, and is not intended to diagnose, treat or replace sound medical advice from your physician or health care provider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    there are actually TWO betaines out there - Betaine HCl (digestive aid) and Betaine (which is TMG).


    Ugh... well this i didn't know.
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    I would recommend injectable SOD.

    BL
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Matrix View Post
    God damn I started a freaken trend again .
    Reason why sam-e works is because it replenish glutathione levels in hard working athletes.
    Well, I took it also to rise my glutathione back in the days... but had the strange side effects like many other people here. The only one good way for me was very high NAC+Glutamin (well, don't know the english name). Felt after a time (2-3 months) great benefits in my immune system.
  39. Professional Member
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    I was doing some research and came across this great post by someone online, some interesting facts and advice concerning SAMe (the original post is about 4 yrs old though):

    Two forms of SAM-e are available, sulfate-p-toluenesulfonate (also called tosylate) and butanedisulfonate. The oral bioavailability of the tosylate salt is 1%, and the oral bioavailability of the butanedisulfonate salt is 5%. (Stramentinoli G, Gualano M, Galli-Kienle M. Intestinal absorption of S-adenosyl-L-methionine. J Pharmacol Exp Ther 1979;209:323-6.) For this reason lots of people have recommended the butanedisulfonate form, and GNC and Nature Made both used to sell that form. But they have both switched to selling the tosylate form as far as I can tell. The only source I have been able to find for the butanedisulfonate salt is a site called Young Again, which sells it for arthritis (http://www.youngagain.com/same.html). It costs about 50 cents per 400mg pill. You can reduce the price a bit by buying two bottles at a time, for which they will give you a third bottle at no extra charge. Of course, that still works out to be quite a lot, since for many people the antidepressant effect does not kick in until the 1600 mg per day level. If you do start taking SAM-e, but sure to get enough B vitamins, especially folate, B6 and B12. There is some evidence that SAM-e does not work as well without enough B vitamins. And take SAM-e on an empty stomach about half an hour before a meal to increase absorption. You might also try supplementing with a gram or so of methionine. There was a recent animal study that indicated that taking methionine might increase the level of SAM-e in the brain. (The effect of methionine and S-adenosylmethionine on S-adenosylmethionine levels in the rat brain)
    I've also read that it can be fairly common for SAMe to cause Akathisia....and that it may take a long time after discontinuation for this to disappear or improve.
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    I believe I'm about to re-start a Sam-e protocol and also add in a few more ingredients. I'm not well-versed in under/over methylation. When I took sam-e in the past, I did notice positive well-being from it. And it seemed to help slightly with moderate back pain at the time.

    What I'd like to know presently...how does methlyation relate to inflammation? I haven't seen any literature that speaks directly on this. But I assume there is a correlation. A benefit often mentioned of Sam-e is reduction in joint pain. If I'm an under-methylator and I improve this, would inflammation also be reduced?
  

  
 

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