- 01-08-2009, 02:20 PM
I have made a couple posts in the past regarding my varicocele, low testosterone, and the small lump under my nipple. They should be easy enough to find...
Brief version...I am 24 years old and had low T (around 240) varicoceles, and the small lump (cant see it by just looking, but its definitely there...doc said its not gyno, but i still take tamoxifen for it)...I have been an athlete my whole life, and I knew before any tests that I must have low T because I wasn't building muscle or making gains for the amount of time I spent in the gym.
I had a bilateral varicocelectomy back in May to reduce pain, and to get my T back on track. Post-op my doc put me on 20 mg Tamoxifen/day, and 1 mg Arimidex/day. That worked decently enough, and it got my T up to around 650...but I still didn't have much energy, wasn't feeling like I was getting much stronger, and just didn't feel like I used to feel before I noticed the low T symptoms. And my doc said that I can't take Arimidex forever, so we decided to try TRT.
8 weeks ago I started this:
200 mg Testosterone Cypionate/wk
500 IU HCG Every Other Day
20 mg Tamoxifen/day
I have felt great while on this regimen. I have energy, I feel strong in the gym, and I feel like I think a 24 year old should feel.
Here are my questions:
1. How long can I safely, and most beneficially, stay on that regimen?
From what I have read on these boards, I should not stay on any one thing for too long. I am thinking that 10 weeks of the T Cyp. and HCG being run concurrently, followed by 4 weeks of Arimidex is the way to go. That would be a repeating regimen of course. How does that sound to you guys who have a lot more experience than I do??? I need to know pretty soon, because I have to talk with my doc about it, and reorder my prescriptions if necessary.
2. If my suggestion (10 weeks of T/HCG and 4 weeks Arimidex) is not the best solution...then what do you suggest?
Thanks a lot for any help! I am really looking forward to reading the responses!
- 01-08-2009, 04:35 PM
That is too much T for long term use, that is, if you want to continuously feel the benefits of T without having to continuously take more. You are going to downregulate your receptors, those are steroid levels you are taking. Normally someone who takes 100mg of T weekly only needs to do 1 shot of HCG @ 500iu per week, but dividing this dose is better. Your protocol is putting you into supraphysiological (steroid) levels.
If you do that for very long, you will need to keep a look at blood pressure, liver values (from serm use), prostate, e2 levels. You will eventually have e2 issues without the use of an AI, even though you have a serm.
If you have energy issues with your test around 650, you should probably also treat adrenals and look into adrenal fatigue. It's a pretty common thing I'm finding out. Chances are the test you are taking now will only feel good for a short time.
If you are saying that you don't want to stay on any one thing too long, well, this is not TRT. TRT is for life. It is long-term replacement therapy, not a steroid cycle.
01-08-2009, 04:46 PM
I would suggest 100mg of T-cyp per week, and 500iu once per week, or split this into 2 shots.
1 shot of 100mg on day 1, 250iu HCG on day 4, 250iu HCG on day 6. This is a decent protocol.
Arimidex: .5mg on day of each shot. You can try .25mg on day of shot, and then get bloodwork to monitor your e2 and see how the protocol is treating your #'s. Then assess how you feel and tweak as needed.
01-08-2009, 05:10 PM
TRT is forever without cycling.
200 mg Testosterone Cypionate/wk ---> rather high dose, and definitely ng when applied weekly. Read below, you may not need T at all, if you do need it, then only minute amounts. You should/must not disregard your natural capacity of getting to 650.
Since you have natural capacity for up to 650 it is safe to say that you are secondary.
You are good candidate for HCG monotheraphy.
If it works, ok
if it works only to certain level, do it then add little T as need.
If you need external T, it will be either transdermal or injectable.
Transdermal raises DHT, if you need to raise DHT, use transdermal, otherwise injectable.
In addition to DHT, transdermal is not raising E2 because it is applied daily.
Injectable, when you have low E2 and need to raise it, use less frequent injections. If you have to use Arimidex to reduce E2, first go to daily or EOD injections, that will either eliminate your need for Arimidex or reduce size of required dose.
After certain dose size, HCG raises E2.
I think that dose is in neghborhood of (306-380iu)hcg/EOD (for healthy testis).
When on HCG monotheraphy, HCG dose size is limited by Arimidex max dose of 1.5mg/week.
Split Arimidex in halves or 1/4's so you can have frequent dosing. Always deal with splitting only one Arimidex pill at the time.
Arimidex (pills) are inconvenient to use, liquid form is easier to dispense accurately using smallest (3/10cc) insulin syringe with totally cut off needle.
Sometimes one can have low DHT, low E2, (thyroid problems causing low response to transdermal T, adrenals), so it may get complicated.
Frequent testing and dose adjustments are need, at least in first year or so.
Theories abound about frequency of T & HCG shots and how they affect body.
My opinion is based on connecting dots while observing reports of others and my own body responses over last 5 years.
For T & HCG shots I use the smallest available needle, BD Ultrafine II U-100 Insulin Syringe 31 Gauge 3/10cc 5/16inch Short Needle--1/2 Unit Markings 100/b Price: $25.95.
I use T & HCG on alternate days, EOD schedule, after while I reduced my need for AI, currently do not use it.
Next project (somebody may help me), use of insuline pen. Insuline pens come with even smaller and shorter needles.
I have read on diabetic boards that it is ok to not use alcohol swabs, shoot thru shirts, use the same needle few times (same person).
Question, when I have a insuline pen, can I buy empty vials (that would fit that pen)? I would fill them with T & HCG (different pen, diferent vial).
Testing, best if can be done at Quest Diagnostics, second choice LabCorp, no opinion on other labs.
For above discussed TRT, tests at Quest:
Estradiol, Ultrasensitive, LC/MS/MS (30289X)
Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
As long as you are within upper 1/4 of BAT(BioAvailableTestosterone)( 110.0-575.0ng/dL) range, you should be ok.
If HCG alone will put you close to it, you may want to wait with T injections or transdermal applications.
Recently there was discussion on BioAvailableTestosterone tests being much less accurate (by over 50%) when done on old men.
(Their assumption--> SHBG raises with age)
I read that work and concluded that rather than saing old men they should have skipped age consideration and replace it with SHBG levels.
That is, those discrepancies apply to men whose SHBG is high. I do not have good basis, but atm it looks to me that one may start wonder about those inaccuracies when his SHBG>30.
01-08-2009, 09:29 PM
Yeah, a natural capacity of 650 is definitely worth looking into. If you felt poorly at this level, then you should look into other possible things that could be simultaneously causing issues as well. 650 is pretty decent.
01-09-2009, 05:44 PM
my doc is comfortable putting me on 400mg a week of test. i feel that for long term use, this may be high.
You sound like you are in my boat. I am 25 and my natty test is about 350. i felt crappy and my gains were small and sloppy.
i am also on HCG at 300units , 3 times a week, and .5mg of adex EOD. My OWN tailored plan is as follows. 400mg for 15 weeks or so, down to 200mg a week for 15-22 weeks. I plan to come off completely for 8 weeks or so...just so i can not have anything in my system...then hit it again. alot of dudes who think they are doctors on here will tell you TRT is permanent...I dont have any argument against them, but I feel at 24-25 up to 30yr old, there is NO reason to be on forever at this point if your natty levels are manageable. Maybe when i am 32, 33, i might consider staying on at a low dose all year round. i think us young guys have to see how we do with blood tests while on lengthy runs to be sure. im on my second "cycle" of HRT and have not gotten a mid cycle blood test yet, but i will be in a few weeks.
i look at it this way...do your "HRT" cycles to feel good and make some over all gains to your well being, stop the constant med usage for a while, then come back. i dont see why this would be a problem at all...
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