need advice on starting hcg

[cptmorgandoc]

Hi,
I've been reviewing the wealth of information and would appreciate any input.
I'm considering starting HCG monotherapy, along with Adex, and would like recommendations on a good protocol. I original considered starting a traditional TRT protocal: T +HCG+Adex, but am trying to have kids with my wife, and she won't go for this now. I'm also interested in using Sermorelin, and am currently trying a little igflr3. However, I've never tried AAS or a TRT protocal.

A little background: 38yrs. old, in good shape, BF% about 15%, workout about 5-6 days/week (weights and cardio), would like to be in competitive bodybuilding in the next 1-2 years. Started to
experience drop in libido and ED issues around 2 years ago, along with some difficulty in acquiring lean body mass, and lethargy.
I became concerned that I may be having some test issues and consulted with my GP.

GP consult 01/08:
Chem panel, CBC, and lipids normal.
Prolactin, PSA, TSH, and Alb all normal.
Total T 446 (241-827)
SHBG 32 (8-48)
Free T 98 (34-194)
Free and weakly bound T 211 (84-402)

My GP said everything looks great, watch more porn, and take V.
My symptoms continued, so I consulted with a TRT doc my trainer referred me too.

TRT consult 09/08:
Total T 527 (241-850)
Free T 0.88 (0.62-2.81)
Free T %calc 0.17 (0.32-0.50)
Pregnenolone 287 (10-340)
Estradiol 17
DHEA 237 (88-427)
IGF 217 (109-284)
Total Corisol/DHEA-S Ratio 14.5 (5-6)

Wife requested we consult with a urologist 11/08:
Semen analysis good
Estradiol <20 (20-75)
FSH 3.8 (1.4-18.1)
LH 4.25 (1.24-8.62)
Total T 340 (175-781)
Free T 6.68 (8.8-27)

The uro is adamant about me not starting T, and so is my wife until she gets pregnant. I'm aware of the ability to still get pregnant on T, but don't need the hassle. So, I'm thinking about taking the plunge and starting HCG monotherapy for now. I also would like to start Adex at the same time, even though my E is already low (had gyno and surgery when I was 20, and concerned about rising E level).

Thanks for any wisdom!

 

[Nemesis RR]

based on the test results from 01/08 and you wanting to have children I would leave it alone. I would strongly reavaluate your nutrition, recovery, workout plan and the level of stress in your life. I would get extensive blood work thou to see if the results from 11/08 were a fluke. Post times the samples were collected.

 

[The Matrix]

based on the test results from 01/08 and you wanting to have children I would leave it alone. I would strongly reavaluate your nutrition, recovery, workout plan and the level of stress in your life. I would get extensive blood work thou to see if the results from 11/08 were a fluke. Post times the samples were collected.

If it aint broke don't fix it..

 

[cptmorgandoc]

I appreciate your input, but my nutrition is very good, excellent work out plan, and adequate recovery. Unfortunately, my job is stressful and I work graveyards, which I think is having an impact. My free T has been falling, and I believe I have symptoms (e.g. brain fog, lethargy, drop in libido, and ed). I've considered this over the past year and feel that a trial of HCG may be the way to go. Any recommendations on HCG dosage and frequency, and should Adex be initiated concurrently even though my estradiol is normal?

 

[SJA]

If you are going the HCG route, I would recommend 250IU E3D to start.

Have you tried any cialis or viagra?

 

[cptmorgandoc]

250iu E3D seems like a pretty low dose. I've seen recommendations up to 1,000iu E3D. I would really like to get my TT up to about 1,000, while keeping E2 under control, with goals of increase LBM, libido, energy, etc. Should I start Adex concurrently, or just test E2 in 4 weeks first. I've read some guys threads, where there E2 gets a pretty good bump in only 2 weeks after starting HCG, and don't want to take any risks especially since I had gyno and surgery when I was younger.
Yes, I do take viagra almost everytime I have sex with my wife, but still have big libido issues.
Thanks for the input!

 

[JanSz]

Total T 446 (241-827)
SHBG 32 (8-48)
------\
Estradiol 17
DHEA 237 (88-427)
Total Corisol/DHEA-S Ratio 14.5 (5-6)
-------
Estradiol <20 (20-75)
FSH 3.8 (1.4-18.1)
LH 4.25 (1.24-8.62)
Total T 340 (175-781)
===================================

How about if you leave your testosterone alone, for a while.

Get as much DHEA pills so you get (honest) DHEAs(500-640)mcg/dL

It may take more that the usually adviced 25mg 2x/day
I am taking 2x 200mg/day to get to 500mcg/dL

You would also want to get DHT values, I suspect they may also be low.
================================
With your current LH and FSH values, latter on if you decide to boost your TT, HCG looks promissing.
But if you start on HCG do not use Arimidex unless you have a test that shows high E2.
Even then start Arimidex fery frequently using minute size doses.
That is why liquid versions of Arimidex are more user friendly.
=================
Secure small ampoules of HCG, you are depending on uninterupted supply and freshness.
.
.

 

[cptmorgandoc]

Thanks for the words of wisdome JanSz!

 

[thenxtgrt1]

If you haven't already done so, look for threads by colkurtz and jinxie. They've had success with HCG monotherapy.

I can also offer you my experience. Although it didn't positively affect libido, it did skyrocket my Test. I was using 250iu EOD. I believe my main problem was high E2. In the near future I will probably have a more focused protocol of HCG and Adex.

If you begin HCG without anti-e, you test within the first few wks to see what your estrogen levels are. For some folks (me included), even a small amount causes estrogen to rise.

 

[jinxie]

If you haven't already done so, look for threads by colkurtz and jinxie. They've had success with HCG monotherapy.

I can also offer you my experience. Although it didn't positively affect libido, it did skyrocket my Test. I was using 250iu EOD. I believe my main problem was high E2. In the near future I will probably have a more focused protocol of HCG and Adex.

If you begin HCG without anti-e, you test within the first few wks to see what your estrogen levels are. For some folks (me included), even a small amount causes estrogen to rise.

I'm on 500 IUs EOD. I wouldn't start higher than 1k IUs E3Ds. Most of us run into E2 problems. hCG at doses high enough to bring TT over 1,000 tends to cause greater aromatization than would test. I take .2 mgs Adex EOD. I suspect my E2 is probably still around 40 or so, but I prefer that to getting too low, during which I lose morning wood. Additionally, I am healing from injuries, and I don't want to dehydrate my joints from low E2.

 

[axa0176]

I'm on HCG now w/ anastrozole!

As far as dosage goes, I started with 250 iU injections every other day and there has been some research that said you don't get much more out of taking more than that so I would start with that:

(Take the quotes out, it won't let me post a link)
"https://digital.lib.washington.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1773/4415/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf?sequence=2"

What you need is a 10,000 iU bottle of HCG along w/ it's bacteriostatic water, and at least a 29 gauge .5cc needle.


Reconstitute it w/ the water for appropriate dosage.

Inject into lower abdominal fat.


I can give you more details if you send me a PM.

 

[Gutterpump]

wowza...a 10,000iu bottle? You can't use all that up in a month if you're taking 250iu e2d. That's a lot going to waste!

I'd go for the 2,000iu bottle or the 5,000...keep it cold n keep it fresh!!

 

[jinxie]

wowza...a 10,000iu bottle? You can't use all that up in a month if you're taking 250iu e2d. That's a lot going to waste!

I'd go for the 2,000iu bottle or the 5,000...keep it cold n keep it fresh!!

Novarel lasts 45 days, no problem, (Abraxis claims 60 days for theirs) and you can freeze it in syringes without significantly compromising potency. I speak from experience.

But I agree, 80 days is too long . . . unless you freeze some in slin pins.

 

[axa0176]

I refrigerate the vial immediately and it should be good.

What I do is reconstitute the 10,000 iU vial with 5 ml, and then use a .5cc syringe to get 1,000 iU/syringe.

Currently, I inject 250iU every day, so I get 4 days out of it.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I'm on HCG now w/ anastrozole!

As far as dosage goes, I started with 250 iU injections every other day and there has been some research that said you don't get much more out of taking more than that so I would start with that:

(Take the quotes out, it won't let me post a link)
"https://digital.lib.washington.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/1773/4415/JCEM_2005_Low_Dose_Human.pdf?sequence=2"

What you need is a 10,000 iU bottle of HCG along w/ it's bacteriostatic water, and at least a 29 gauge .5cc needle.


Reconstitute it w/ the water for appropriate dosage.

Inject into lower abdominal fat.


I can give you more details if you send me a PM.

250IUs E3D may not be sufficient. The research you read is flawed. You get substantially more from increasing the dose. As for E2 everyone is different. Mine didn't elevate until the 10th week at 10,000 IUs per week. Desensitization is probably a myth too. I did 10,000 IUs/wk for the first 8 months and followed with 8,000 per week for the rest of the year. I then took off 8 months and now manage high 900s on 1000 IUs E3D. I take .5 mg of Arimidex on injection days. My E2 is 23 and my morning wood is strong enough to hang a winter coat on.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I refrigerate the vial immediately and it should be good.

What I do is reconstitute the 10,000 iU vial with 5 ml, and then use a .5cc syringe to get 1,000 iU/syringe.

Currently, I inject 250iU every day, so I get 4 days out of it.

You use the same syringe?

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Novarel lasts 45 days, no problem, (Abraxis claims 60 days for theirs) and you can freeze it in syringes without significantly compromising potency. I speak from experience.

But I agree, 80 days is too long . . . unless you freeze some in slin pins.

Do you use Novarel?

 

[axa0176]

250IUs E3D may not be sufficient. The research you read is flawed. You get substantially more from increasing the dose. As for E2 everyone is different. Mine didn't elevate until the 10th week at 10,000 IUs per week. Desensitization is probably a myth too. I did 10,000 IUs/wk for the first 8 months and followed with 8,000 per week for the rest of the year. I then took off 8 months and now manage high 900s on 1000 IUs E3D. I take .5 mg of Arimidex on injection days. My E2 is 23 and my morning wood is strong enough to hang a winter coat on.

Well, I guess that research is talking about maintaining testicular size, not boosting T levels....However, I just got a new vial today and I'm bumping up to 300 or 350 b/c EVERY DAY.

BTW, I do injections every day.....

So, how are you managing those T levels now? Did you have a period where you ramped up?

What kind of system are you on? Is this like a ramping up & post-cycle therapy?

 

[colkurtz_spf]

Well, I guess that research is talking about maintaining testicular size, not boosting T levels....However, I just got a new vial today and I'm bumping up to 300 or 350 b/c EVERY DAY.

BTW, I do injections every day.....

So, how are you managing those T levels now? Did you have a period where you ramped up?

What kind of system are you on? Is this like a ramping up & post-cycle therapy?

I wouldn't inject every day or every other day. My experience is that frequency lends to higher E2 levels. The best protocol in my opinion is E3D or twice a week. I inject E3D. I used massive amounts to start because of testicular shut down. I was on exogenous test for a solid year without any HCG.

When was your last draw and what were your results?

 

[axa0176]

Well, I think there is something to that b/c on the 1st month I was on 250 iU HCG every day, my E2 levels spiked to 72 pg/ml with a T level of 314. I wasn't taking any arimidex and I just got off my thyroid medicine so the TSH numbers looked bad there too, 8.08 mIU/mL.

After that, I started taking 1 mg anastrozole/wk and keeping the 250 iU every day thing going, still not taking the thyroid meds. My testosterone level was about 400 with a 42 E2 level.

However, I had a pretty large varicocele and I just got it removed w/ surgery on 12/5/08 so I am hesitant at slamming myself w/ HCG before I know what the varicocelectomy did. However, I am worried about the E2 levels though and they seem to correlate with your experience.

I think I will try 1000 iU E3d w/ .5 mg anastrozole on injection days since that will give me the 1mg I used to take anyways. It was foolish of me to get off my thyroid medicine when so much was changing.

But I think the 1000 iU E3d will go some ways towards stimulating my testicles as I believe there was some atrophy I had due to what was possibly a varicocele I had since adolescence.

 

[jinxie]

I wouldn't inject every day or every other day. My experience is that frequency lends to higher E2 levels. The best protocol in my opinion is E3D or twice a week. I inject E3D. I used massive amounts to start because of testicular shut down. I was on exogenous test for a solid year without any HCG.

When was your last draw and what were your results?

FWIW, Dr. John claims that doses over 500 IUs cause problems, and more frequent doses at lower doses are preferred. I don't know whether this is true or not, but the doctor does have a lot of experience in these matters, so I would think there is something to that. I recently changed from E3Ds to EOD, and I prefer it -- not the injections, but no a big deal.

As far as E2 levels are concerned, it's genetics, including how well your testes respond to the hCG. If you are a strong responder, there is a greater chance that there will be greater aromatization because your T levels will be more responsive. 1500 IUs E3Ds sent my E2 over 80, and that was while taking .35 mgs of Adex at time of injection. I do also take 50 mgs of DHEA and, at at the time, was taking 100 mgs of oral preg, so that may have contributed to the problem.

I do use Novarel, Colkurtz. I used Abraxis the first two times, and haven't looked back. I never have a hard time getting it, as there is a pharmacy that is part of a hospital with a large fertility unit. I get 3 vials at a time.

Axa, you ought not use a syringe that has touched your skin more than once. You risk serious infection. Not that likely, but it would not be fun to contend with.

Good luck.

 

[axa0176]

jinxie,

As far as the syringe goes, I try to get some uses out of it b/c it seems like a waste to throw it away after just 1 use....

However, what I do is apply rubbing alcohol on the site, inject, apply alcohol on the needle & re-cap, and clean the site again...I hope that keeps it relatively sterile enough, considering I can't reintroduce an infection into my body that wasn't in my body to begin with....and the water is bacteriostatic so hopefully that helps...LOL

Although I do know I am taking a little risk...fingers crossed


As for the doses, it seems everybody responds just a bit differently, I think I will just experiment with doses and see what i get.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

FWIW, Dr. John claims that doses over 500 IUs cause problems, and more frequent doses at lower doses are preferred. I don't know whether this is true or not, but the doctor does have a lot of experience in these matters, so I would think there is something to that. I recently changed from E3Ds to EOD, and I prefer it -- not the injections, but no a big deal.

As far as E2 levels are concerned, it's genetics, including how well your testes respond to the hCG. If you are a strong responder, there is a greater chance that there will be greater aromatization because your T levels will be more responsive. 1500 IUs E3Ds sent my E2 over 80, and that was while taking .35 mgs of Adex at time of injection. I do also take 50 mgs of DHEA and, at at the time, was taking 100 mgs of oral preg, so that may have contributed to the problem.

I do use Novarel, Colkurtz. I used Abraxis the first two times, and haven't looked back. I never have a hard time getting it, as there is a pharmacy that is part of a hospital with a large fertility unit. I get 3 vials at a time.

Axa, you ought not use a syringe that has touched your skin more than once. You risk serious infection. Not that likely, but it would not be fun to contend with.

Good luck.

It's true that doctor John has a lot of experience, but I've seen the case study he quotes on HCG as his hypothesis for desensitization, and quite frankly it does not make sense to me or my doctor who is established in clinical research. Most importantly, I have my own experience to go by as discussed in my earlier post. As to frequency, it increased my E2 as my doctor said it would.

I think you ought to increase your Arimidex and get your E2 under control. If not that, drop the preg. I understand that some people do better with higher E2 levels. I've had mine up to 82 and quite frankly it didn't bother me as much it did my doctor, but in the long run I don't think it's healthy.

I've been using Abraxis since I went back on therapy a year ago. I didn't think anything of it until I had to get a quick script at CVS, and they filled it with Novarel. What a difference! I've decided to make the switch permanent. The funny thing is that it's costing me less.

 

[jinxie]

It's true that doctor John has a lot of experience, but I've seen the case study he quotes on HCG as his hypothesis for desensitization, and quite frankly it does not make sense to me or my doctor who is established in clinical research. Most importantly, I have my own experience to go by as discussed in my earlier post. As to frequency, it increased my E2 as my doctor said it would.

I think you ought to increase your Arimidex and get your E2 under control. If not that, drop the preg. I understand that some people do better with higher E2 levels. I've had mine up to 82 and quite frankly it didn't bother me as much it did my doctor, but in the long run I don't think it's healthy.

I've been using Abraxis since I went back on therapy a year ago. I didn't think anything of it until I had to get a quick script at CVS, and they filled it with Novarel. What a difference! I've decided to make the switch permanent. The funny thing is that it's costing me less.

I'm dont pay homage to the desensitization suggestion; I am only talking about E2. Intuitively, it makes sense to me that less frequent, larger doses will cause higher peak TT and, in turn, higher E2. That said, I have read a number of abstracts on PubMed where studies were done with E3Ds. I don't think that is a bad choice, but if E2 is high, even with the equivalent of .125 mgs of adex every day, I think EOD is worth a shot.

Colkurtz, I am recovering from open surgery on both my shoulders. Low E2 can dry out the joint and compromise healing. There's a lot of research out there to support it. Some athletes take steroids that actually increase water in the joints to heal; the particular popular med doesnt come to mind immediately (it may be Deca), but I understand there is a lot of downside to it.

I agree, Novarel is superior to Abraxis, even if it has a shorter life after being reconstiuted.

Axa, slin pins are cheap. Buy them and use them once. When you inject, you are introducing bacteria into the pin of the syringe, which you can clean without pulling alcohol through the syringe, and even that may not get it done. If you get encephalitis, you are going to be bumming.

 

[colkurtz_spf]

I'm dont pay homage to the desensitization suggestion; I am only talking about E2. Intuitively, it makes sense to me that less frequent, larger doses will cause higher peak TT and, in turn, higher E2. That said, I have read a number of abstracts on PubMed where studies were done with E3Ds. I don't think that is a bad choice, but if E2 is high, even with the equivalent of .125 mgs of adex every day, I think EOD is worth a shot.

Colkurtz, I am recovering from open surgery on both my shoulders. Low E2 can dry out the joint and compromise healing. There's a lot of research out there to support it. Some athletes take steroids that actually increase water in the joints to heal; the particular popular med doesnt come to mind immediately (it may be Deca), but I understand there is a lot of downside to it.

I agree, Novarel is superior to Abraxis, even if it has a shorter life after being reconstiuted.

Axa, slin pins are cheap. Buy them and use them once. When you inject, you are introducing bacteria into the pin of the syringe, which you can clean without pulling alcohol through the syringe, and even that may not get it done. If you get encephalitis, you are going to be bumming.

I've felt joint pain with E2 at 6, but I don't think it should be a problem in the normal ranges. High E2 long term could lead to heart and prostate problems. I'd be careful. I understand joint pain - was a professional athlete and have spinal stenosis, an arthritic knee and damaged cartledge in my right elbow.

 

[axa0176]

jinxie,

I Googled encephalitis....Let's just say I'm going to move to 1 injection, 1 syringe from now on...LOL

 

[Gutterpump]

I've been using Abraxis since I went back on therapy a year ago. I didn't think anything of it until I had to get a quick script at CVS, and they filled it with Novarel. What a difference! I've decided to make the switch permanent. The funny thing is that it's costing me less.

How does Pregnyl rate to Novarel? I've been taking pregnyl but I'm still getting a dull occassional testicular pain from the T shots. Maybe I need to really boost my dhea that I'm taking to help it work better. I was taking 50-75mg per day..thinking of increasing this by a lot more, maybe double it am/pm. My doctor keeps testing for DHEA instead of DHEA-S so I'm not sure if my dhea-s is still low or not. Could be that or it could be the hcg. Pregnyl is pretty cheap and easy for me to get though..

 

[colkurtz_spf]

How does Pregnyl rate to Novarel? I've been taking pregnyl but I'm still getting a dull occassional testicular pain from the T shots. Maybe I need to really boost my dhea that I'm taking to help it work better. I was taking 50-75mg per day..thinking of increasing this by a lot more, maybe double it am/pm. My doctor keeps testing for DHEA instead of DHEA-S so I'm not sure if my dhea-s is still low or not. Could be that or it could be the hcg. Pregnyl is pretty cheap and easy for me to get though..

I've never tried it, but I assume it works well.

 

[axa0176]

Do you have to reconstitute all HCGs?

I'm traveling soon and the HCG injections always seem to present challenges in terms of how to transport them.

 

[jinxie]

jinxie,

I Googled encephalitis....Let's just say I'm going to move to 1 injection, 1 syringe from now on...LOL

One of the dangers of living in a family with a number of medical providers. I know just enough to be dangerous. Bad terminology on my part. You can get a pretty nasty bacterial infection that can be very painful. The odds aren't great, but not worth the risk given the 31 gauge, 5/16" insulin syringes cost .16 each at Walgreens (EOD cost of $2.40 per month); and you can get them cheaper than that at Costco or other places online, I would imagine. Hurts less if you use them once, as well -- they get blunted every time you puncture a membrane.

 

[jinxie]

How does Pregnyl rate to Novarel? I've been taking pregnyl but I'm still getting a dull occassional testicular pain from the T shots. Maybe I need to really boost my dhea that I'm taking to help it work better. I was taking 50-75mg per day..thinking of increasing this by a lot more, maybe double it am/pm. My doctor keeps testing for DHEA instead of DHEA-S so I'm not sure if my dhea-s is still low or not. Could be that or it could be the hcg. Pregnyl is pretty cheap and easy for me to get though..

I understand that Pregnyl is of similar quality. I think you usually get the pain from T shots from shutting down the testies, which causes them to shrink. At least that's what I've read. I don't see how DHEA will impact this pain.

 

[Gutterpump]

HCG is supposed to prevent shutdown. I don't understand why I am feeling symptoms of shutdown while on HCG shots...this is why I am taking the shots, so that my body still produces it's own test and my nuts don't shrink.

DHEA helps HCG to work. HCG causes the testes to create it's own test via PREG and DHEA from what I know. Without proper PREG and DHEA levels, HCG is not very effective.

edit: I am on 125mg T per week and 250iu HCG eod. 100-150mg DHEA and no PREG. .5mg liquidex eod. I realize my T levels are probably high on this protocol, and I need to have my PREG levels tested.

The only thing I can think of is that there is a push-pull on the testes, and this is causing slight pain as they shrink and grow. I don't know...maybe they are shrinking slowly but surely if the HCG isn't working right. That much HCG should prevent atrophy even if on a very heavy dose of T.

 

[jinxie]

HCG is supposed to prevent shutdown. I don't understand why I am feeling symptoms of shutdown while on HCG shots...this is why I am taking the shots, so that my body still produces it's own test and my nuts don't shrink.

DHEA helps HCG to work. HCG causes the testes to create it's own test via PREG and DHEA from what I know. Without proper PREG and DHEA levels, HCG is not very effective.

edit: I am on 125mg T per week and 250iu HCG eod. 100-150mg DHEA and no PREG. .5mg liquidex eod. I realize my T levels are probably high on this protocol, and I need to have my PREG levels tested.

The only thing I can think of is that there is a push-pull on the testes, and this is causing slight pain as they shrink and grow. I don't know...maybe they are shrinking slowly but surely if the HCG isn't working right.

GP, I've never heard of injecting hCG EOD while on injectable T. I believe you are really going to jack your T levels at the time of your T injections (causing high and topsy-turvy E2 and possibly DHT; I realize that you are prolly taking the adex at the same time, thus reducing the E2 peaks), thus interfering with part of the reasons for using the hCG -- to keep T levels from fluctuating too much. Actually, maybe I have heard of it, from Jan or Phil. According to Dr. John's protocol, it's best to take as T levels trough, which, in your case, would be at days 5 and 6. I believe other docs that recommend hCG have followed this approach. Additionally, that is a fair amount of hCG given your T dosage.

The DHEA/PREG issue is beyond me. As I understand it, hCG is an LH analogue, and therefore upregulates T production. I suppose if you dont have the building blocks of T, the production could be compromised. If you have adequate levels of cholesterol, I would think you would be okay; but maybe you more specifically need DHEA and Preg. In any event, it's worth noting that my DHEA-S was at the lower end of the range, even after supplementing with 25 mgs DHEA (now on 50 mgs), and my Preg serum was low, even after supplementing with 100 mgs preg, and I was a strong responder to hCG. 1500 IUs E3Ds sent me trough TT over 1200. I now take 500 IUs EOD.

My nuts never ached when on T and hCG for a month. But I'm sure others have suffered like you.

All of this is meant constructively. For all I know, your approach may be better for you. Hope things resolve with the nut ache.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yeah, I seem to have less ache when I shoot hCG more often. If I shoot only once per week, it doesn't seem like enough. A 500iu shot once per week feels like nothing.

I originally frontloaded 250mg T in my first week over 2 shots and it didn't boost my libido very much...even after remaining on this amount, so I switched to this protocol (more hCG and less test) and it seems better. I was a bit shocked that I didn't feel the initial surge when starting TRT, which is the reason people say to frontload that amount. 250mg should be enough to get my DHT and free T up there.

I forgot to say that I am also taking the nettle root every day right now. NP's Divanex, 1 cap in AM 1 in PM. I would not say that my approach is good in the long term though. I am sure my levels are fluctuating like you are saying, and are probably too high. But for now it's better than nothing until I get a new doctor. I really still need to get that sleep study and adrenals tested. Lethargy is still high..as it has been for years..T didn't change that, but my workouts are definitely great right now and I don't need cialis, so that's a positive step.

 

[axa0176]

One of the dangers of living in a family with a number of medical providers. I know just enough to be dangerous. Bad terminology on my part. You can get a pretty nasty bacterial infection that can be very painful. The odds aren't great, but not worth the risk given the 31 gauge, 5/16" insulin syringes cost .16 each at Walgreens (EOD cost of $2.40 per month); and you can get them cheaper than that at Costco or other places online, I would imagine. Hurts less if you use them once, as well -- they get blunted every time you puncture a membrane.

Yeah, I have noticed that the needle gets blunt after the 1st time....sometimes it takes me a long time to get it in.

It was never so much the cost, b/c they are dirt cheap.....it just appeared to me I was being so wasteful.....I like to at least get a refill of water out of a styrofoam cup before I throw it away......but this is a bit more risky.