[jinxie]

Hi all.

So. I asked this before, without any responses.

I just had 3 surgeries. 2 on my shoulders, clavicular resection and SLAP repairs on each side, torn rotator cuff on one side, and ulnar nerve transposition on one side.

I have been doing PT aggressive, and, so far, limited to home exercise. Fortnately, I've maintained most of my size, even though I've been lifting VERY light, without any real chest work -- just chair push ups.

I'd like to speed up the recovery, and I understand getting more water into the joint can help this, as can increased T levels. I am not interested in deca. I figured that taking 50 mgs of test cyp per week on top of my 1k IUs E3D hCG may help. I'm wondering if anyone has any idea what this may do to the t production from my testes -- whether the exogenous T will militate against the hCG effects. Anyone have any ideas. My doc didn't seem to know though, admittedly, he's not that familiar with hCG. I dont want to increase my hCG dose because of E2 issues.

So, bottom line, will the small T Cyp dosage undermine what was hCG monotherapy via a feedback loop. I've never read of anone doing this. Typically, I only hear of taking both under the Cristler protocol, which didn't work nearly as well for me as hCG monotherapy.

Any thoughts from the experienced?

TIA,
Jinxie

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by jinxie

Hi all.

So. I asked this before, without any responses.

I just had 3 surgeries. 2 on my shoulders, clavicular resection and SLAP repairs on each side, torn rotator cuff on one side, and ulnar nerve transposition on one side.

I have been doing PT aggressive, and, so far, limited to home exercise. Fortnately, I've maintained most of my size, even though I've been lifting VERY light, without any real chest work -- just chair push ups.

I'd like to speed up the recovery, and I understand getting more water into the joint can help this, as can increased T levels. I am not interested in deca. I figured that taking 50 mgs of test cyp per week on top of my 1k IUs E3D hCG may help. I'm wondering if anyone has any idea what this may do to the t production from my testes -- whether the exogenous T will militate against the hCG effects. Anyone have any ideas. My doc didn't seem to know though, admittedly, he's not that familiar with hCG. I dont want to increase my hCG dose because of E2 issues.

So, bottom line, will the small T Cyp dosage undermine what was hCG monotherapy via a feedback loop. I've never read of anone doing this. Typically, I only hear of taking both under the Cristler protocol, which didn't work nearly as well for me as hCG monotherapy.

Any thoughts from the experienced?

TIA,
Jinxie

Sorry to hear about your surgeries, sucks, I know first hand.
Had both rotator cuffs done at different times.

About adding testosterone to your hcg.

#1 I do not think you will shut down your testis as long as you are using HCG.

Why are you considering additional testosterone?
I am assuming that on current (1k IUs E3D hCG) you are not producing enough testosterone to get your FreeT and BAT where you want/need them.

I would say if E2 is not a factor, call your HCG days a Day#3 and do this:

Day#1-50mg Test
Day#2 nothing
Day#3 1000iu HCG

If you have to use more than 1mg/week of Arimidex,
I would back down on HCG to 750 or 500 or 250
and use HCG dose that results in you needing (0.5-0.75)mg/week of Arimidex or even less.

If you find out that you are missing on FreeT than just crank up size of testosterone shot.

Do blood draws 48hrs after T shot.
FreeT from chart or proper test at Quest.

Do not get unnecesarily upset if you cant stay on HCG mono-theraphy, just do what works best for you.

Good luck.
Speedy recovery.
But do not push too much.

I had broken distal biceps surgery Aug6/08, sucks too.
.
.

[jinxie]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Sorry to hear about your surgeries, sucks, I know first hand.
Had both rotator cuffs done at different times.

About adding testosterone to your hcg.

#1 I do not think you will shut down your testis as long as you are using HCG.

Why are you considering additional testosterone?
I am assuming that on current (1k IUs E3D hCG) you are not producing enough testosterone to get your FreeT and BAT where you want/need them.

I would say if E2 is not a factor, call your HCG days a Day#3 and do this:

Day#1-50mg Test
Day#2 nothing
Day#3 1000iu HCG

If you have to use more than 1mg/week of Arimidex,
I would back down on HCG to 750 or 500 or 250
and use HCG dose that results in you needing (0.5-0.75)mg/week of Arimidex or even less.

If you find out that you are missing on FreeT than just crank up size of testosterone shot.

Do blood draws 48hrs after T shot.
FreeT from chart or proper test at Quest.

Do not get unnecesarily upset if you cant stay on HCG mono-theraphy, just do what works best for you.

Good luck.
Speedy recovery.
But do not push too much.

I had broken distal biceps surgery Aug6/08, sucks too.
.
.

Thanks Jan. Pushing anymore hCG will cause E2 problems. I know because I had them when I was using 1500 E3ds. I'm already taking 1 mg adex per week.

Free T and Bio T are already in upper 1/3 of range. I was hopinh to push them to the top with 50 mgs pf T cyp per week. If my E2 climbs a little, that's okay, as I am in no condition to be having sex in any event, and the extra water can actually help the healing, so I have read.

Any thoughts?

[Shootist]

From what I've read HGH would be the ideal drug to take for a speedier recovery.

[jinxie]

Originally Posted by Shootist

From what I've read HGH would be the ideal drug to take for a speedier recovery.

Absolutely, but too spendy, and too difficult for me to get. I have the T already. I'm just reluctant to cause any sort of a shut down to hasten recovery. Deca can be good too, though I understand the relief is short lived.

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by jinxie

Thanks Jan. Pushing anymore hCG will cause E2 problems. I know because I had them when I was using 1500 E3ds. I'm already taking 1 mg adex per week.

Free T and Bio T are already in upper 1/3 of range. I was hopinh to push them to the top with 50 mgs pf T cyp per week. If my E2 climbs a little, that's okay, as I am in no condition to be having sex in any event, and the extra water can actually help the healing, so I have read.

Any thoughts?

Being on HCG & Arimidex only you are running on natural testosterone.

Even if you are just (honestly) hitting upper 1/3 of range on FreeT and BAT, that is already rather decent level.
Possibly you should just leave this part alone.
------------------------------------------
Depending where you are on
IGF-1
and
IGFBP-3

Page 79, Dr Tierry Hertoghe book, IGFBP-3, if more than 4mg/L then too much somatomedin C is bound to IGFBP-3,
if more than 4mg/L indicate need for HGH

Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) was once called somatomedin C, levels under 150mcg/l indicate defficiency in GH(page 78 Hertoghe)

When using HGH dr Hertoghe is using minute amounts plus time, so it have a time to work.

Susan Sommers is using larger amounts because of (to support) her fight with breast cancer, still her dose is very small comparing to what you would see being used by BB.

Hertoghe 0.02iu/day
that cost probably around $200/year
Suzan is using 0.08mg/day (page 66 Breakthru) probably about $2000/year

Hertoghe used to use 1iu/day and eventually started getting side effects from it, problems with hands and feet.
==============================================
-----------------------------------------

Since I broke my distal biceps tendon, I am concerned with healing process.

Investigating possibility of prolotheraphy.
I talked with Dr. Edward Magaziner,
dremagaziner.com
Prolotheraphy is not indicated for healing after surgery.
But it is good in case of strains, injuries, arthritis.
$500/session, few sessions need, insurance does not pay.
Similar in appearence to patient, but totally different principle, stem cell theraphy, additional $200/session,
also (he was not real sure about it) not applicable to speed healing.

I left office with bottle of pills
Vita-Stim ($45)

supports
immune system
Stem Cell nutrition

so it is version of stem cell theraphy in the pills.
=========================================
Went to my TRT doctor (russian), healing question:
he swears by that

Mummyo Pasta 5 gr best price to buy online $6.00

Mummyo Pasta 5 gr

Mummyo 20 Tab best price to buy online $6.50

Mummyo 20 Tab
==========================================

Body building web sites

Cissus
==========================================

I use all of the above except HGH, everything heals real fine, but I do not push on physical theraphy.

I am still little bit ahead of what my surgeon expected.
Probably he just wants to make me feel good, so hi is bs-ing me.
==========================================

My IGF=150 (here I would barely qualify, or not)
IGFBP-3=4.6 (that is 0.6 too much, so if I pushed I could qualify for HGH)

I have a cancer in my thigh, liposarcoma, I plan on contacting dr Herthoge on topic of HGH/liposarcoma.

He often supports using HGH in patients with cancer.
Actually he supports using Testosterone for men with operated PC.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newer heard of it, but just came across it, Chlorella.

accelerate wound healing, and enhance immune functions

Chlorella
500 mg, 200 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 00550
Chlorella, 500 Mg 200 Tablets: Source Naturals

[jinxie]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Being on HCG & Arimidex only you are running on natural testosterone.

Even if you are just (honestly) hitting upper 1/3 of range on FreeT and BAT, that is already rather decent level.
Possibly you should just leave this part alone.
------------------------------------------
Depending where you are on
IGF-1
and
IGFBP-3

Page 79, Dr Tierry Hertoghe book, IGFBP-3, if more than 4mg/L then too much somatomedin C is bound to IGFBP-3,
if more than 4mg/L indicate need for HGH

Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) was once called somatomedin C, levels under 150mcg/l indicate defficiency in GH(page 78 Hertoghe)

When using HGH dr Hertoghe is using minute amounts plus time, so it have a time to work.

Susan Sommers is using larger amounts because of (to support) her fight with breast cancer, still her dose is very small comparing to what you would see being used by BB.

Hertoghe 0.02iu/day
that cost probably around $200/year
Suzan is using 0.08mg/day (page 66 Breakthru) probably about $2000/year

Hertoghe used to use 1iu/day and eventually started getting side effects from it, problems with hands and feet.
==============================================
-----------------------------------------

Since I broke my distal biceps tendon, I am concerned with healing process.

Investigating possibility of prolotheraphy.
I talked with Dr. Edward Magaziner,
dremagaziner.com
Prolotheraphy is not indicated for healing after surgery.
But it is good in case of strains, injuries, arthritis.
$500/session, few sessions need, insurance does not pay.
Similar in appearence to patient, but totally different principle, stem cell theraphy, additional $200/session,
also (he was not real sure about it) not applicable to speed healing.

I left office with bottle of pills
Vita-Stim ($45)

supports
immune system
Stem Cell nutrition

so it is version of stem cell theraphy in the pills.
=========================================
Went to my TRT doctor (russian), healing question:
he swears by that

Mummyo Pasta 5 gr best price to buy online $6.00

Mummyo Pasta 5 gr

Mummyo 20 Tab best price to buy online $6.50

Mummyo 20 Tab
==========================================

Body building web sites

Cissus
==========================================

I use all of the above except HGH, everything heals real fine, but I do not push on physical theraphy.

I am still little bit ahead of what my surgeon expected.
Probably he just wants to make me feel good, so hi is bs-ing me.
==========================================

My IGF=150 (here I would barely qualify, or not)
IGFBP-3=4.6 (that is 0.6 too much, so if I pushed I could qualify for HGH)

I have a cancer in my thigh, liposarcoma, I plan on contacting dr Herthoge on topic of HGH/liposarcoma.

He often supports using HGH in patients with cancer.
Actually he supports using Testosterone for men with operated PC.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Newer heard of it, but just came across it, Chlorella.

accelerate wound healing, and enhance immune functions

Chlorella
500 mg, 200 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 00550
Chlorella, 500 Mg 200 Tablets: Source Naturals

Jan, I appreciate all of the constructive suggestions and support, but I am really just wondering if a small dose of T cyp on top of my 333 IUs per day of hCG may shut my testes down. I just want to bring the t level a little higher to accelerate the recovery so I can be pain free sooner. thanks

[JanSz]

Originally Posted by jinxie

Jan, I appreciate all of the constructive suggestions and support, but I am really just wondering if a small dose of T cyp on top of my 333 IUs per day of hCG may shut my testes down. I just want to bring the t level a little higher to accelerate the recovery so I can be pain free sooner. thanks

Going by dr John procedure,
Day#1 T shot
Day#6 250hcg
Day#7 250hcg

the theory is that HCG
#1 keeps testicles in good shape
#2 raises T production on the end of 7day cycle where the T shot is wearing down.

.
Bottom line;
I would assume that what you are planning will raise you T levels.
.
.

[jinxie]

Originally Posted by JanSz

Going by dr John procedure,
Day#1 T shot
Day#6 250hcg
Day#7 250hcg

the theory is that HCG
#1 keeps testicles in good shape
#2 raises T production on the end of 7day cycle where the T shot is wearing down.

.
Bottom line;
I would assume that what you are planning will raise you T levels.
.
.

Thanks Jans. But I would imagine that under Dr. John's plan, the hCG largely serves to maintain testicular volume I still don't know what would happen if I add T cyp:

1) Will it actually increase free and bioavailable T, or will it reduce the effectiveness of the production from my testes (from the hCG) such that free and bioavailable T remain the same; and

2) When I stop the supplemental T, will the hCG be as effective, or would I have to do some kind of PCT.

I am hoping someone can speak from experience, or a deep medical understanding. I've never heard of anyone being on a high dose of hCG and adding a small dose of T. Seems like unchartered territory.

[living2die]

personally, i have used hcg(500IU ED) in conjunction with IM injection of 50-150mg T Enanthate, and found that after i stop the exogenous T source, i feel no psychological void from the loss of the exogenous T source. hcg has so many other benefits other than simply raising your T levels. I rank its ability to increase endo T production shadows in comparison to its ability to stimulate the other hormone pathways like PREG, p450, cortisol, and PROG. im to lazy to look it up, but isnt there a study that is frequently cited to give ammo to the claim that hcg can stimulate testes to produce T, even in an environment of an exogenous caused secondary hypogonadism?
I like jansz recommendation of simply slightly/moderately reducing your hcg dosage to accommodate for supplementing with endo T.

Originally Posted by jinxie

Thanks Jans. But I would imagine that under Dr. John's plan, the hCG largely serves to maintain testicular volume I still don't know what would happen if I add T cyp:

1) Will it actually increase free and bioavailable T, or will it reduce the effectiveness of the production from my testes (from the hCG) such that free and bioavailable T remain the same; and

2) When I stop the supplemental T, will the hCG be as effective, or would I have to do some kind of PCT.

I am hoping someone can speak from experience, or a deep medical understanding. I've never heard of anyone being on a high dose of hCG and adding a small dose of T. Seems like unchartered territory.

[jinxie]

Thanks fellas. I am reluctant to drop hCG and add Test. as I don't want to compromise the strides I've already made. Applying that same logic, I assume I should leave well enough alone. I so badly want to accelerate the healing, as it is terribly difficult to sleep when you have pain in both shoulders (from open surgery on each over the last 6 weeks).

[living2die]

jinxie,
just out of curiosity, what did you end up doing? did you continue sailing down the HCG monotherapy route, increase your hcg dose, or did you incorporate some type of exogenous T into your injury recovery protocol ?

Originally Posted by jinxie

Thanks fellas. I am reluctant to drop hCG and add Test. as I don't want to compromise the strides I've already made. Applying that same logic, I assume I should leave well enough alone. I so badly want to accelerate the healing, as it is terribly difficult to sleep when you have pain in both shoulders (from open surgery on each over the last 6 weeks).