Poor TRT Results after 2yrs:BACK TO BASICS

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    Lightbulb Poor TRT Results after 2yrs:BACK TO BASICS


    ok so here is what i am doing. i have been doing my own thing since i started TRT, adding in dhea, then preg, trying adex, etc. never had great results with TRT....

    I am going back to basics.

    1.) I was going to go to once a week injections, as this is what Dr. Crisler recommends, but I think I'll stick with twice weekly. Regardless of whether this is unnecessary, it can only help doing it more frequently, correct? If things look I will switch to once weekly later on...

    2.) Dropping pregnenolone completely. I was taking 100mg a day, then 50mg a day. I don't even know if I really feel better with it or not, so I'm dropping to baseline, and after holding all other things static for a while, I reintroduce pregnenolone, it will be in transdermal form, as Dr. Crisler says this is superior to oral, as oral's first pass through the liver converts some of it into a sedative-like product.

    3.) I am dropping DHEA from 150mg to 50mg a day. I was going it completely, but I know that even with 200mg DHEA daily I was only at 481 DHEA-S, which is well, well within range. I just keep reading too much from Dr. Crisler, and around the net that 50mg is the most the average guy should take, so well see how that works out. If/when I increase it I will do it after holding all other things static for a while. From what I have read, DHEA results are equivalent when taken orally compared to transdermally, i.e. there are NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER besides absorption rate (as comparted to PREG's aforementioned problem with the first pass through the liver). Plus unlike PREG, DHEA doesn't leave me wondering if my body is converting the excess to progesterone, or one of the million other things it changes into. DHEA is a much more predictable beast. Surely it will only end up, if anything, changing my estrogens or androgens a tiny bit.

    4.) No arimidex. Dr. Crisler says that it is RARE for anyone to need arimidex, EVEN WITH HCG included with TRT. I have been brainwashed by the small sample of people on all these online forums, the same people always harping about this e2 level or arimidex, or what have you. They are the minority; this is not the standard practice and its taken me 2 years on TRT to finally realize all my research and learning has been hurting more then its helping. TRT hasn't been prescribed to the average joe who never hits a forum in his lifetime, and they generally have great results with TRT. People with problems, who avidly post on forums are the minority. It's time to trust the professional and standard medicine. (this is not to say older men may not have problems with e2, other hormones, etc and will not benefit from arimidex!) but for someone with no e2 problems BEFORE TRT and only 23 years old, I assume my body can cope with the physiological T levels, because it did so very well just a few years ago.

    5.) No DIM. God knows if its antiandrogenic properties are imposed throughout the body, and not just prostate cells. It reduces acne doesn't it? And young guys I've heard of taking it, complained of lower libido not higher... Young guys who's Testo and Estro are at peak values. (This is not to say it doesn't have it's uses, or isn't helpful for some people!).


    Supplements I plan on still taking:
    Multivitamin
    Vitamin E, D-3, B complex (I have colitis, and have deficiencies)
    DHEA 50mg time 6-8hr release
    Pancreatin 10x
    Probiotic 10-20
    Mega EFA
    ToCoQ10
    Levothyroxine 137mcg. (I was on 75mcg synthroid before and felt crappy, then tried 1g armour, felt better, then tried 3 grains felt better but something wasn't right... TSH results came back at ZERO. not .1, but plain old 0. That mean's my body was saying whoa, too much thyroid, were not making ANY more. Now I'm on 137mcg and my results were .6 range is (i believe) {.5 - 5.0}. Things feel alot more level, but I do feel less zing then when I was on the 3g.)

    None of those except the DHEA are anything that, as far as logic/knowledge dictates are extraordinary compounds that could negatively impact my health in any way at all.



    How does that sound everyone? Any flaws in my post? Does anyone here think they felt better on once a week injections, and think I should revert to that immediately as well?


    One thing to note: I have colitis so I basically have completely cut fruits/vegetables out of my diet. If i take all the aforementioned vitamins, do you see anything I could be deficient in with taking fruits/vegetables out of my diet?

    Biggest problems with my TRT is mental fog, sedated tired feeling often, yawning more than anyone I'm around at night, gynecomastia (but only happened during my 3g armour trial...musta been hyper...FUK!), and no fire in the belly, brain-penis connection called libido....

    hopefully by the end of the week I'll be turned on by even this chick :chick:


    Thanks everyone, you guys are amazing support and tremendous help!

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    I can attest personally from a patient view point of Dr. Crisler. I cannot comment on most of the things you have written as I am sure there are much smarter people around here. I hope Jansz can pop in on this one as he is the most well versed on TRT that I've seen. Or you can go over to Dr. Crislers forum and ask your question.

    If you are having these problems, have you considered just going and seeing Dr. Crisler?

    Good luck and keep us informed on your progress
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    A weekly injection is fine for many people. The only reason I can see to do them more frequently is if you felt miserable after a few days. Without big swings like this I would personally stick to 1x per week. Poke yourself as little as possible to minimize scar tissue, chance of infections, etc.

    As for the rest of the stuff, opinions from forums are fine but I personally would be most comfortable relying on a Dr. that I trust.
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    Do you know that you need armidex? Have you had your estrogen checked or are you just guessing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    ok so here is what i am doing. i have been doing my own thing since i started TRT, adding in dhea, then preg, trying adex, etc. never had great results with TRT....

    I am going back to basics.

    1.) I was going to go to once a week injections, as this is what Dr. Crisler recommends, but I think I'll stick with twice weekly. Regardless of whether this is unnecessary, it can only help doing it more frequently, correct? If things look I will switch to once weekly later on...

    2.) Dropping pregnenolone completely. I was taking 100mg a day, then 50mg a day. I don't even know if I really feel better with it or not, so I'm dropping to baseline, and after holding all other things static for a while, I reintroduce pregnenolone, it will be in transdermal form, as Dr. Crisler says this is superior to oral, as oral's first pass through the liver converts some of it into a sedative-like product.

    3.) I am dropping DHEA from 150mg to 50mg a day. I was going it completely, but I know that even with 200mg DHEA daily I was only at 481 DHEA-S, which is well, well within range. I just keep reading too much from Dr. Crisler, and around the net that 50mg is the most the average guy should take, so well see how that works out. If/when I increase it I will do it after holding all other things static for a while. From what I have read, DHEA results are equivalent when taken orally compared to transdermally, i.e. there are NO BENEFITS WHATSOEVER besides absorption rate (as comparted to PREG's aforementioned problem with the first pass through the liver). Plus unlike PREG, DHEA doesn't leave me wondering if my body is converting the excess to progesterone, or one of the million other things it changes into. DHEA is a much more predictable beast. Surely it will only end up, if anything, changing my estrogens or androgens a tiny bit.

    4.) No arimidex. Dr. Crisler says that it is RARE for anyone to need arimidex, EVEN WITH HCG included with TRT. I have been brainwashed by the small sample of people on all these online forums, the same people always harping about this e2 level or arimidex, or what have you. They are the minority; this is not the standard practice and its taken me 2 years on TRT to finally realize all my research and learning has been hurting more then its helping. TRT hasn't been prescribed to the average joe who never hits a forum in his lifetime, and they generally have great results with TRT. People with problems, who avidly post on forums are the minority. It's time to trust the professional and standard medicine. (this is not to say older men may not have problems with e2, other hormones, etc and will not benefit from arimidex!) but for someone with no e2 problems BEFORE TRT and only 23 years old, I assume my body can cope with the physiological T levels, because it did so very well just a few years ago.

    5.) No DIM. God knows if its antiandrogenic properties are imposed throughout the body, and not just prostate cells. It reduces acne doesn't it? And young guys I've heard of taking it, complained of lower libido not higher... Young guys who's Testo and Estro are at peak values. (This is not to say it doesn't have it's uses, or isn't helpful for some people!).


    Supplements I plan on still taking:
    Multivitamin
    Vitamin E, D-3, B complex (I have colitis, and have deficiencies)
    DHEA 50mg time 6-8hr release
    Pancreatin 10x
    Probiotic 10-20

    Mega EFA
    ToCoQ10

    Levothyroxine 137mcg. (I was on 75mcg synthroid before and felt crappy, then tried 1g armour, felt better, then tried 3 grains felt better but something wasn't right... TSH results came back at ZERO. not .1, but plain old 0. That mean's my body was saying whoa, too much thyroid, were not making ANY more. Now I'm on 137mcg and my results were .6 range is (i believe) {.5 - 5.0}. Things feel alot more level, but I do feel less zing then when I was on the 3g.)

    None of those except the DHEA are anything that, as far as logic/knowledge dictates are extraordinary compounds that could negatively impact my health in any way at all.



    How does that sound everyone? Any flaws in my post? Does anyone here think they felt better on once a week injections, and think I should revert to that immediately as well?


    One thing to note: I have colitis so I basically have completely cut fruits/vegetables out of my diet. If i take all the aforementioned vitamins, do you see anything I could be deficient in with taking fruits/vegetables out of my diet?

    Biggest problems with my TRT is mental fog, sedated tired feeling often, yawning more than anyone I'm around at night, gynecomastia (but only happened during my 3g armour trial...musta been hyper...FUK!), and no fire in the belly, brain-penis connection called libido....

    hopefully by the end of the week I'll be turned on by even this chick :chick:


    Thanks everyone, you guys are amazing support and tremendous help!
    For someone who have 2 years experience hopefully you will appeciate and stick to at least these points:

    Twice weekly T injections equally (hourly) spaced.
    HCG the two days before T.

    I myself make it simple to live with and use EOD schedule,
    one day T the next HCG.

    When doing TRT, at first watch only
    FreeT (better BAT) and DHT.
    You want to have FreeT~300 using chart
    and
    DHT at upper range or little higher.

    (Independently of FreeT & DHT) watch E2 using
    Estradiol, ultrasensitive
    Goal (15-30)
    fine tuned by nightly erections.

    Blood testing for TRT do
    TotalTest
    SHBG
    Albumin
    DHT

    -----------------------
    Do not use Indolplex as a source of DIM, it must have something else in it, it affects E2, but DIM is not supposed to affect E2.

    Thyroid-wise, post thise and then we may draw some conclussions:
    ------
    T3 Free
    T4,Free
    reverse T3 (rT3)
    Ultrasensitive TSH
    Thyroid Peroxidase and Thyroglobulin Antibodies (7260X)
    iodine
    selenium
    copper
    zinc
    -------
    Reason that you are tired and foggy is most likely weak adrenals.

    See if you will feel better if you take Cortef
    7AM-10mg
    11AM-10mg
    3PM-5mg
    7PM-5mg

    and Melatonin
    11PM-3mg melatonin (right before head his the pillow).

    If it makes a difference in how you feel, if you feel better, stay on that routine at least for a year.
    -------------------------------------------------

    For good digestion consider

    Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets (I use 4 tabs with each meal, usually 3x/day)

    Super Enzymes Caps 180 Capsules - NOW FOODS - Code 2964 $14.15 (2x/day)

    Primal Defense Ultra (2x/day)

    Fruits and vegetable out of diet, that is recipe for disaster, look for better ways,
    possibly increase doses of probiotics and enzymes.
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    Thanks for your responses. I will keep your suggestions in mind. And as far as my thyroid readings, I know whats up with that stuff, and it's all good. Also, my current/new/better doctor doesn't go for armour and t3/t4 readings.

    Last time I used armour, and increased my dosage to get my t3 higher I ended up getting hyper symptoms and feeling crappy. My doc says studies synthroid works for a vast majority of people, and that very very few people have trouble converting t4 to t3. I feel much better on synthroid at 137mcg then I ever did on armour at 1g, 2g, or 3g.


    Status Report:
    As of today, I am experiencing morning wood, also yesterday as well. I also had an oral sex dream last night, and another sex dream this afternoon during a nap. Things are looking up, as mental cloud has improved.


    Is it the arimidex? Is it the DIM? Or the dropping of preg/dhea? I shouldn't have tried multiple things at once again...

    But I am sticking with the adjusted preg/dhea, and no longer using arimidex and dim, so if things continue to improve and get really good then I know what's lkely causing what.

    Thanks all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    Thanks for your responses. I will keep your suggestions in mind. And as far as my thyroid readings, I know whats up with that stuff, and it's all good. Also, my current/new/better doctor doesn't go for armour and t3/t4 readings.

    Last time I used armour, and increased my dosage to get my t3 higher I ended up getting hyper symptoms and feeling crappy. My doc says studies synthroid works for a vast majority of people, and that very very few people have trouble converting t4 to t3. I feel much better on synthroid at 137mcg then I ever did on armour at 1g, 2g, or 3g.


    Status Report:
    As of today, I am experiencing morning wood, also yesterday as well. I also had an oral sex dream last night, and another sex dream this afternoon during a nap. Things are looking up, as mental cloud has improved.


    Is it the arimidex? Is it the DIM? Or the dropping of preg/dhea? I shouldn't have tried multiple things at once again...

    But I am sticking with the adjusted preg/dhea, and no longer using arimidex and dim, so if things continue to improve and get really good then I know what's lkely causing what.

    Thanks all.
    About thyroid treatment;
    trust your doc but verify

    Synthroid=T4
    ArmourThyroid=T1, T2, T3, T4, possibly more

    it will not kill you to have thyroid checked using list I posted above.

    Your problems with Armour is likely to be AF related.
    .
    .
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    JanZ,

    Why would you want fruits and veggies out of diet? Never heard of that
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmac1 View Post
    JanZ,

    Why would you want fruits and veggies out of diet? Never heard of that
    Just the other way around, fruits and vegies must be eaten.

    FOXDIE is not eating them because of colitis.
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    i mean yeah i get a little bit of veggies with sandwiches and i have an apple or so a day, but no i dont eat alot of vegetables. they aggravate my colitis, and if someone has a solution for digesting them in large amounts safely they should let me know, they would be a genius/peace prize winner. and man lived off of meat as food for millions of years, i dont think not eating my fruit everyday is that big of a deal, most people never had access to fruit in large quantities. i take a multi and d,e,and b complex anyway.

    regardless....

    so now its been a few days and i lost that small increase in libido. does this mean that the adex/dim needs to be dosed again? or that i got a little spike in the begininning from starting this stuff and need to ride it out?

    i will continue to avoid the arimidex, and took dim caps today. (total 500mg crucif. veg. blend, 25mg dim. i will try taking the dim every day, 2 caps; a rather small amount. if i do have minor estrogen problems, that didnt warrant the need of arimidex, i figure the dim would improve things.

    besides i need to just stick to one and ride it out to see any real/measurable results. dim, i choose you. (p.s. i have continued to drop oral pregnenolone completely, and dhea down to 50mg time release.
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    Well for broccli you can try to cut them up into very small pieces and then cook for 3-5 minutes on low heat in water. Works well and is easily digested. Got this tip from whfoods.com ( best website for food that I have ever seen)
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    this is true. could i get roughly the same benefits from taking a dim capsule providing:

    250mg cruciferous vegetable blend
    12.5mg DIM

    ?

    im thinking even if im not taking dim or regardless of if i take arimidex or not, taking 1 dim capsule that only provides that seems close to a natural intake equivalent to eating alot of broccoli? or should i just stay away from dim...
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    Quote Originally Posted by FOXDIE View Post
    i mean yeah i get a little bit of veggies with sandwiches and i have an apple or so a day, but no i dont eat alot of vegetables. they aggravate my colitis, and if someone has a solution for digesting them in large amounts safely they should let me know, they would be a genius/peace prize winner. and man lived off of meat as food for millions of years, i dont think not eating my fruit everyday is that big of a deal, most people never had access to fruit in large quantities. i take a multi and d,e,and b complex anyway.

    regardless....

    so now its been a few days and i lost that small increase in libido. does this mean that the adex/dim needs to be dosed again? or that i got a little spike in the begininning from starting this stuff and need to ride it out?

    i will continue to avoid the arimidex, and took dim caps today. (total 500mg crucif. veg. blend, 25mg dim. i will try taking the dim every day, 2 caps; a rather small amount. if i do have minor estrogen problems, that didnt warrant the need of arimidex, i figure the dim would improve things.

    besides i need to just stick to one and ride it out to see any real/measurable results. dim, i choose you. (p.s. i have continued to drop oral pregnenolone completely, and dhea down to 50mg time release.
    I take these three (below), may ease your colitis.

    6 tabs 2-3 times/day with each meal
    Country Life Betaine Hydrochloride with Pepsin -- 600 mg - 250 Tablets

    2 pills/day, you may want to take more
    Super Enzymes Caps 180 Capsules - NOW FOODS - Code 2964 $14.15

    2 pills
    Primal Defense Ultra (probiotics)

    possibly (heavy duty probiotics vsl#3) would work better for you
    ============================== ==============
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    thanks for the tips!

    i currently take dhea (studies show 200mg is the effective dose, but ive lowered my dosage to 50mg recently, because i want to use as little things as possible for a little then build off of that base).

    i take wellbutrin (lowers TNF)

    i take fish oil caps

    i take probiotics

    i take digestive enzymes


    so im in pretty good shape, colitis doesnt bother me much unless i eat things i shouldnt really, like nuts/alcohol/veggies/etc
  

  
 

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