Hcg or Clomid monotherapy?

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    Hcg or Clomid monotherapy?


    I have low testosterone and all the symptoms. Here are my levels if you are interested

    Hypogonadism?

    I think I am secondary and have been told my levels point in that direction. I want to try something like hcg instead of using test. I have a few questions though. Do I have to take a serm or ai with it? How much does it cost and would insurance cover it? I am within range on all my levels except my prolactin. I have lots of symptoms of low t so can I be diagnosed with hypogonadism so my insurance will cover it? Does Hcg increase Fsh or lh? or does it replace it? I see my endo again in a few weeks and I really want to be ready to talk to him seriously about trying some kind of treatment. Please help this is not just a troll. Quality of life seems to be lessening no matter what healthy changes I make.

    Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    I have low testosterone and all the symptoms. Here are my levels if you are interested

    Hypogonadism?

    I think I am secondary and have been told my levels point in that direction. I want to try something like hcg instead of using test. I have a few questions though. Do I have to take a serm or ai with it? How much does it cost and would insurance cover it? I am within range on all my levels except my prolactin. I have lots of symptoms of low t so can I be diagnosed with hypogonadism so my insurance will cover it? Does Hcg increase Fsh or lh? or does it replace it? I see my endo again in a few weeks and I really want to be ready to talk to him seriously about trying some kind of treatment. Please help this is not just a troll. Quality of life seems to be lessening no matter what healthy changes I make.

    Thanks in advance.
    Clomid isn't safe for long term therapy. If you're secondary use HCG. It replaces LH. Arimidex may be necessary depending on your response.
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    yah it replaces lh thus inhibiting your own natural production of lh. Your prolactin is out of range. This could be causing the testosterone supression.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    I have low testosterone and all the symptoms. Here are my levels if you are interested

    Hypogonadism?

    I think I am secondary and have been told my levels point in that direction. I want to try something like hcg instead of using test. I have a few questions though. Do I have to take a serm or ai with it? How much does it cost and would insurance cover it? I am within range on all my levels except my prolactin. I have lots of symptoms of low t so can I be diagnosed with hypogonadism so my insurance will cover it? Does Hcg increase Fsh or lh? or does it replace it? I see my endo again in a few weeks and I really want to be ready to talk to him seriously about trying some kind of treatment. Please help this is not just a troll. Quality of life seems to be lessening no matter what healthy changes I make.

    Thanks in advance.
    You are not secondary, your LH and FSH levels are ok. Dont go for HCG or clomid yet. Try other alternatives. Go for prnaic healing, they will check your energy levels and balance all chakras, even then you have low testosterone symptoms then you can go for HCG.
    In one session I fixed my muscle aches (behaving differently),anxiety,gone. I stopped taking test shots.I dont feel any low test symptoms. Only thing i need to gain my weight and muscle back.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Clomid isn't safe for long term therapy. If you're secondary use HCG. It replaces LH. Arimidex may be necessary depending on your response.
    Thanks. I heard that clomid messes with your vision and like you said isn't safe for long term therapy. Is it necessary to do a clomid test first and if it works then go on Hcg? How is secondary diagnosed as opposed to primary? Low normal Lh and Fsh with low normal test levels would point toward secondary correct? How often do you have to get blood drawn when you are taking Hcg? I have read your other post about your success with using Hcg and your opinion is appreciated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RVeezy View Post
    yah it replaces lh thus inhibiting your own natural production of lh. Your prolactin is out of range. This could be causing the testosterone supression.
    Yeah I thought about that, but is that level of prolactin enough to drop my test levels that low? Is there a prescription that would lower my prolactin? My estradiol is also a bit high and I am working on that with diet, exercise, zma and fish oil. I am trying to increase muscle and decrease body fat percentage. I am not exactly sure how to lower prolactin naturally. Anyone? My endo is not concerned with my prolactin level as of yet. We are retesting in a few weeks. He said it could point toward a pituitary problem, but usually the level comes back much higher than mine did. I have gynecomastia so I wonder if it is a result of low testosterone to estrogen levels or high prolactin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkblue1 View Post
    You are not secondary, your LH and FSH levels are ok. Dont go for HCG or clomid yet. Try other alternatives. Go for prnaic healing, they will check your energy levels and balance all chakras, even then you have low testosterone symptoms then you can go for HCG.
    In one session I fixed my muscle aches (behaving differently),anxiety,gone. I stopped taking test shots.I dont feel any low test symptoms. Only thing i need to gain my weight and muscle back.
    The reason I say I am secondary is that my lh and fsh are low normal and so is my testosterone. Since my testosterone is low they should both be high and since they aren't it points toward secondary. I will look into your suggestions. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    The reason I say I am secondary is that my lh and fsh are low normal and so is my testosterone. Since my testosterone is low they should both be high and since they aren't it points toward secondary. I will look into your suggestions. Thanks.
    Are you using transdermal or any other testosterone supplementation?

    Few minutes ago I have seen somebody who is not responding to T-gel, noting his low LH & FSH numbers and hoping that he is secondary.

    LH & FSH analysis are not valid (and should not be done) when one is supplementing with T.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Are you using transdermal or any other testosterone supplementation?

    Few minutes ago I have seen somebody who is not responding to T-gel, noting his low LH & FSH numbers and hoping that he is secondary.

    LH & FSH analysis are not valid (and should not be done) when one is supplementing with T.
    No sir I have never used any external source of test or any other hormone ever. I am 26 and my endo won't treat me at all so far he just keeps retesting me and telling me things are all fine and within range except my prolactin and he said it could be high from touching my gyne. I'm not a doctor but to me that sounds stupid. We have done two tests already and the third one is in a few weeks. I have gyno, ed, fatigue, mood swings, softer testicles, frequent urination, almost nonexistent libido, insomnia......the list goes on and on. Every time I see him he takes my weight, blood pressure, review my labs tells me nothing is wrong with them, examines my chest and genitals, and then tells me to retest and schedules another appointment. If there is nothing wrong like he says why does he keep testing and sh*t so frustrating. Kinda feels like he is just trying to make money off the visits. I have insurance so I only co pay $30, but I think each visit is a couple hundred not sure though. There is only 1 endo, a couple urologists, no osteopaths and no anti aging clinics or doctors. So My rope is really short hopefully there is someone who will help me here as I cannot afford to travel right now and I am far from the states. He hasn't said I have hypogonadism, but he hints towards it with all his questions. I think he is scared to diagnose me, because maybe my insurance would get mad or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    The reason I say I am secondary is that my lh and fsh are low normal and so is my testosterone. Since my testosterone is low they should both be high and since they aren't it points toward secondary. I will look into your suggestions. Thanks.
    Where is your LH? If it's normal clomid won't do the trick. My LH is low normal (3.9) and I have responded very well to HCG alone for over two years. Do you have numbers to post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Where is your LH? If it's normal clomid won't do the trick. My LH is low normal (3.9) and I have responded very well to HCG alone for over two years. Do you have numbers to post?
    I tested my hormones about 3 months ago and here are the results

    Dhea(NL) 458ng/DL Ref range142-1410
    Testosterone, total (DSL) 346Ng/DL Ref range 190-1037
    Estradiol (DSL) 32 PG/ML None given
    Cortisol 14.8 Ug/DL None given

    I retested a month ago

    FSH 5.7 Miu/ml Ref range 1.3-19.3
    Lh 3.7 Miu/ml Ref range 1.2-8.6
    Total testosterone 230 ng/dl Ref range 190-1037
    Free testosterone 51.3pg/ml Ref range 35- 155
    Shbg 12 nmol/l Ref range 7-49
    Prolactin 15.7 ng/ml Ref range 2.6-13.1
    Estradiol 55 pg/ml Ref range <207 (they changed the method of testing to siemens method)

    Please keep in mind I just turned 26 years old and these were taken when i was 25. I have never used any AAS or any external hormones. Estradiol is high and prolactin is out of range. Endo said estradiol is fine and the prolactin might be out of range because I touch my gyno too much? I am not a doctor but that sounds kinda dumb. Will my insurance cover it if I am still "within range"? My endo says there is nothing wrong with my numbers despite my symptoms. Can I still be diagnosed with hypogonadism if my levels are "within range"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    I tested my hormones about 3 months ago and here are the results

    Dhea(NL) 458ng/DL Ref range142-1410
    Testosterone, total (DSL) 346Ng/DL Ref range 190-1037
    Estradiol (DSL) 32 PG/ML None given
    Cortisol 14.8 Ug/DL None given

    I retested a month ago

    FSH 5.7 Miu/ml Ref range 1.3-19.3
    Lh 3.7 Miu/ml Ref range 1.2-8.6
    Total testosterone 230 ng/dl Ref range 190-1037
    Free testosterone 51.3pg/ml Ref range 35- 155
    Shbg 12 nmol/l Ref range 7-49
    Prolactin 15.7 ng/ml Ref range 2.6-13.1
    Estradiol 55 pg/ml Ref range <207 (they changed the method of testing to siemens method)

    Please keep in mind I just turned 26 years old and these were taken when i was 25. I have never used any AAS or any external hormones. Estradiol is high and prolactin is out of range. Endo said estradiol is fine and the prolactin might be out of range because I touch my gyno too much? I am not a doctor but that sounds kinda dumb. Will my insurance cover it if I am still "within range"? My endo says there is nothing wrong with my numbers despite my symptoms. Can I still be diagnosed with hypogonadism if my levels are "within range"?
    I don't know how your insurance company works. Possibly your doctor's opinion factors into the equation. You may only be 26, but appears that more young men are becoming testosterone deficient than before. One study suggests that testosterone levels in men of all ages have declined nearly 30% since the 1980s. Perhaps environmental changes are to blame.

    You need to find out more about your condition before you treat it. Don't rule out a primary condition or even a restart. You don't necessarily need steroids to disrupt your HPTA. I've heard nothing but complaints about endos from people in this forum. You may want to take this to a urologist - one who is willing to work with you. Numbers aside, your most important point is how you feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    I don't know how your insurance company works. Possibly your doctor's opinion factors into the equation. You may only be 26, but appears that more young men are becoming testosterone deficient than before. One study suggests that testosterone levels in men of all ages have declined nearly 30% since the 1980s. Perhaps environmental changes are to blame.

    You need to find out more about your condition before you treat it. Don't rule out a primary condition or even a restart. You don't necessarily need steroids to disrupt your HPTA. I've heard nothing but complaints about endos from people in this forum. You may want to take this to a urologist - one who is willing to work with you. Numbers aside, your most important point is how you feel.
    I feel like crap so I need to get this fixed. How do I test for primary my endo just ordered a retest of free test, total test, Lh, fsh, estradiol, and prolactin. Should I go back to him or just ditch and find a urologist? i am really scared and of primary, because I want to have kids and so does my wife. Don't my numbers point towards secondary though?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    I feel like crap so I need to get this fixed. How do I test for primary my endo just ordered a retest of free test, total test, Lh, fsh, estradiol, and prolactin. Should I go back to him or just ditch and find a urologist? i am really scared and of primary, because I want to have kids and so does my wife. Don't my numbers point towards secondary though?

    Get the tests done! Clomid is a good way to test your condition. If you're secondary you will respond well. Try it for 8 weeks and see what happens. If you respond take a month off and retest. You might reset your HPTA. If not HCG will be the way to go. If you don't respond you'll need exogenous testosterone.

    I can see you're a big guy. Is it all muscle? Fat can contribute to high estrogen levels - it likes to live there. While on clomid you can start a diet. I've purchased a few really good plans. If you're interested PM me. You can also research diet and testosterone. I would try everything before HRT. Hopefully your endo will prescribe clomid - if not you should find a good urologist, but only after you test. It's wise to get that covered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Get the tests done! Clomid is a good way to test your condition. If you're secondary you will respond well. Try it for 8 weeks and see what happens. If you respond take a month off and retest. You might reset your HPTA. If not HCG will be the way to go. If you don't respond you'll need exogenous testosterone.

    I can see you're a big guy. Is it all muscle? Fat can contribute to high estrogen levels - it likes to live there. While on clomid you can start a diet. I've purchased a few really good plans. If you're interested PM me. You can also research diet and testosterone. I would try everything before HRT. Hopefully your endo will prescribe clomid - if not you should find a good urologist, but only after you test. It's wise to get that covered.

    No sir sad to say it is mostly fat. I do have muscles and they are visible, but I have "problem" areas. Please don't get me wrong either I realize this may have been the cause of all of this and I realize it is my fault. I never knew all these things could happen ed, gyno etc... Anyway I quit smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, started exercising, and dieting. Here is my routine.

    My workout routine is:

    Weight training complete body workout 5 times a week

    Cardio Mountain biking 45 min-1hr 5 times a week

    2 days off rest every week

    Diet (without going into to much detail)

    8:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    10:00 1 cup oatmeal 2 pack equal 1/2 cup 3%milk 1 multivitamin, fish oil capsule

    12:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    5:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    8:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    10:00 1 TBSP virgin coconut oil, 1/2 cup peanuts, and a zma

    I try to follow this and most of the time I do. I started 2 months ago and feel a little better. My gains are noticeable I am slimming down a bit and muscles are more defined. I am going to ask about the clomid thing and if he says no I will look for another doctor. If he says no though I am going to wait at least 3 to 4 months to get in better shape. If he gives it to me I will run it like you suggested, and if when I retest it goes back down I will request hcg. Can you conceive while on clomid or do you have to run it first? My endo is always talking about studies. Do you know of any that would help me state my case regarding using hcg instead of t?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    No sir sad to say it is mostly fat. I do have muscles and they are visible, but I have "problem" areas. Please don't get me wrong either I realize this may have been the cause of all of this and I realize it is my fault. I never knew all these things could happen ed, gyno etc... Anyway I quit smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, started exercising, and dieting. Here is my routine.

    My workout routine is:

    Weight training complete body workout 5 times a week

    Cardio Mountain biking 45 min-1hr 5 times a week

    2 days off rest every week

    Diet (without going into to much detail)

    8:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    10:00 1 cup oatmeal 2 pack equal 1/2 cup 3%milk 1 multivitamin, fish oil capsule

    12:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    5:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    8:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    10:00 1 TBSP virgin coconut oil, 1/2 cup peanuts, and a zma

    I try to follow this and most of the time I do. I started 2 months ago and feel a little better. My gains are noticeable I am slimming down a bit and muscles are more defined. I am going to ask about the clomid thing and if he says no I will look for another doctor. If he says no though I am going to wait at least 3 to 4 months to get in better shape. If he gives it to me I will run it like you suggested, and if when I retest it goes back down I will request hcg. Can you conceive while on clomid or do you have to run it first? My endo is always talking about studies. Do you know of any that would help me state my case regarding using hcg instead of t?
    Get rid of muscle milk. Even the lite has too much sugar(s). Do not use equal or splenda. Look for stevia as a sweetener. You can get drops or small packets at a whole foods store. Jay Robb makes his protein powder with stevia. You can also buy protein with stevia at True Protein, a vendor at this site. Stop eating at least three hours before bedtime, and try to incorporate more fresh fruits and vegetables into your diet. I purchased an excellent plan that help me lose 17 lbs since last month. I'd be more than willing to share it with you. PM me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jon671 View Post
    No sir sad to say it is mostly fat. I do have muscles and they are visible, but I have "problem" areas. Please don't get me wrong either I realize this may have been the cause of all of this and I realize it is my fault. I never knew all these things could happen ed, gyno etc... Anyway I quit smoking cigarettes, drinking alcohol, started exercising, and dieting. Here is my routine.

    My workout routine is:

    Weight training complete body workout 5 times a week

    Cardio Mountain biking 45 min-1hr 5 times a week

    2 days off rest every week

    Diet (without going into to much detail)

    8:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    10:00 1 cup oatmeal 2 pack equal 1/2 cup 3%milk 1 multivitamin, fish oil capsule

    12:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    5:00 Muscle milk lite protein shake with water

    8:00 Chicken breast 8-10 oz and potato with a vegetable, fish oil capsule

    10:00 1 TBSP virgin coconut oil, 1/2 cup peanuts, and a zma

    I try to follow this and most of the time I do. I started 2 months ago and feel a little better. My gains are noticeable I am slimming down a bit and muscles are more defined. I am going to ask about the clomid thing and if he says no I will look for another doctor. If he says no though I am going to wait at least 3 to 4 months to get in better shape. If he gives it to me I will run it like you suggested, and if when I retest it goes back down I will request hcg. Can you conceive while on clomid or do you have to run it first? My endo is always talking about studies. Do you know of any that would help me state my case regarding using hcg instead of t?
    Look at the study I quote in my post #79
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-3.html

    Specially the chart, then the red lined part of the chart.
    -------
    I think that there is no need to stop TRT, if one is on it.
    Dr John quotes people conceiving while on his T+hcg TRT.
    His most basic protocol is a T once/week and 250iu HCG two days before Tshot.

    There is also, most likely, no need to try clomid (unless attempt is making for a HPTA restrart).
    Just go for the HCG and try to conceve.
    If not, add HMG as recomended on chart.

    Fertility docs do not care if one gets gyno or have other E2 problems, so hi is not even addressing E2 in the article.
    For us, worrying about this things, I would make attempt at managing E2.

    Managing e2, by using less than 3x 2000iu HCG/week, also adding Arimidex to the mix.
    .
    .
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    If you have group insurance ie through your job. Your insurance should cover a percentage of anything if it is perscribed by a doctor. Call your insurance company and check on things. It doesn't have to be diagnosed if perscribed by doc. I would recommend Dr. Crisler because it doesn't sound like your endo is ever going to do anything. check allthingsmale.com you really have to push hard to get things better with condition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Look at the study I quote in my post #79
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-3.html

    Specially the chart, then the red lined part of the chart.
    -------
    I think that there is no need to stop TRT, if one is on it.
    Dr John quotes people conceiving while on his T+hcg TRT.
    His most basic protocol is a T once/week and 250iu HCG two days before Tshot.

    There is also, most likely, no need to try clomid (unless attempt is making for a HPTA restrart).
    Just go for the HCG and try to conceve.
    If not, add HMG as recomended on chart.

    Fertility docs do not care if one gets gyno or have other E2 problems, so hi is not even addressing E2 in the article.
    For us, worrying about this things, I would make attempt at managing E2.

    Managing e2, by using less than 3x 2000iu HCG/week, also adding Arimidex to the mix.
    .
    .
    Is it not worth his time to see if he can restart HPTA? He is only 26 years old.
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Get rid of muscle milk. Even the lite has too much sugar(s). Do not use equal or splenda. Look for stevia as a sweetener. You can get drops or small packets at a whole foods store. Jay Robb makes his protein powder with stevia. You can also buy protein with stevia at True Protein, a vendor at this site. Stop eating at least three hours before bedtime, and try to incorporate more fresh fruits and vegetables into your diet. I purchased an excellent plan that help me lose 17 lbs since last month. I'd be more than willing to share it with you. PM me.
    Where I live there are not many options when dealing with protein shakes. I did comparative shopping and considering calories, sugar and amount protein Muscle milk lite was my best option it only has 2 grams per shake of sugar. Is that too much? I am thinking about ordering optimum gold standard whey and casein. A lot more expensive with the shipping included. I am limited on my budget I have tried stevia and don't mind giving it a go again. I usually go to sleep around 1 or 2 in the morning. I do get at least 7-8 hours of sleep as I work later in the day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanSz View Post
    Look at the study I quote in my post #79
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-...oodtest-3.html

    Specially the chart, then the red lined part of the chart.
    -------
    I think that there is no need to stop TRT, if one is on it.
    Dr John quotes people conceiving while on his T+hcg TRT.
    His most basic protocol is a T once/week and 250iu HCG two days before Tshot.

    There is also, most likely, no need to try clomid (unless attempt is making for a HPTA restrart).
    Just go for the HCG and try to conceve.
    If not, add HMG as recomended on chart.

    Fertility docs do not care if one gets gyno or have other E2 problems, so hi is not even addressing E2 in the article.
    For us, worrying about this things, I would make attempt at managing E2.

    Managing e2, by using less than 3x 2000iu HCG/week, also adding Arimidex to the mix.
    .
    .
    Thank you sir. I will print some of those out to use as reference before I go to see my endo in a few weeks. For the clomid I was under the impression that it "might" restart me and it would indicate weather I am primary or secondary hypogonadism. I wish to treat the problem at hand so I want to know what is wrong before I begin treatment. I am currently trying to conceive I was just curious as to if I get treatment the effects it would have and if it is safe to conceive while on the drug itself. If my levels raise while on clomid and then drop again I wish to use hcg and arimidex like you say. We will see though. Thanks
  22. New Member
    jon671's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingston pt View Post
    If you have group insurance ie through your job. Your insurance should cover a percentage of anything if it is perscribed by a doctor. Call your insurance company and check on things. It doesn't have to be diagnosed if perscribed by doc. I would recommend Dr. Crisler because it doesn't sound like your endo is ever going to do anything. check allthingsmale.com you really have to push hard to get things better with condition.

    Thanks for the reply. I wish I could see Dr. Crisler, but it is almost impossible. Just to travel to see him would cost at least a couple grand. I live very far away. I need to find someone closer. I wonder if insurance covers foreign doctors. I live near the philippines and I was wondering if I go there and get prescriptions if it would be honored here in the U.S.. I live in a US territory. What I mean is if you want to see a specialist you need a referal from your GP. What if you see a doctor without the referal and get prescribed something. Will insurance cover the medication if you don't follow the specified protocol?
  23. New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by colkurtz_spf View Post
    Is it not worth his time to see if he can restart HPTA? He is only 26 years old.
    To me it is worth the time even if it doesn't work. I want to give it a good effort before going on HRT. As of now this includes the changes I listed above and maybe adding clomid. If it works and drops down again then definetly HCG and Arimidex. Just curious as to where you are located and if it was dificult to get your doctor to put you on a hcg regimen.
  

  
 

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