Varicocele & Hypothyroidism - Strong connection (Who is treating?)
- 08-07-2008, 08:52 PM
Varicocele & Hypothyroidism - Strong connection (Who is treating?)
It's now became common knowledge that almost all varicocele sufferers that have negative effects are getting either full blown hypothyroidism or sub-clinical hypothyroidism too. Varicocele dosen't just effect androgens, but also adrenals and thyroid too.
I strongly believe this causes the following problems:
1. Testicular atrophy
2. ED/Penile shrinkage
3. Skin problems
4. Sensation problems
5. Weight problems
6. Fat distrubution problems
7. Hair problems
8. Reduced muscle mass
Roughly 6 months before i got the varicocele and took the rollercoaster ride of hell, i had a TSH of 0.7. It's common knowledge that 0.6/1 is considered "optimimal" for thyroid function (asssuming T4/T3 total/free levels are in check).
8 Weeks after getting the varicocele and atrophy my TSH shot up to 2.2 (and in some tests - even higher). I was getting most of the symptoms of hypothyroidism. The worse being no libido, ED and shrinkage issues.
Because thyroid is responsible for metabolism, blood flow and so fourth it can HUGELY effect the blood flow to the groin area and thus have negative effects when it's reduced. Now i believe the missing part of the jigsaw for all varicocele sufferers is treating hypothyroidism.
I am curious to know if anyone is on any kind of thyroid treatment and if anyone has noticed improvements in symptoms?
All input is welcome!
- 08-07-2008, 08:56 PM
- 08-07-2008, 10:11 PM
08-08-2008, 09:44 AM
08-08-2008, 10:28 AM
08-08-2008, 10:57 AM
08-08-2008, 02:00 PM
08-08-2008, 08:10 PM
DB, my TSH was exactly that at one stage too. However take into account my "normal" TSH before i had the varicocele was 0.7. So i am going to assume that your TSH was probably similar too.
Thyroid is the thing we NEED to treat and nobody is. HCG WON'T work without proper thyroid hormone levels and we won't get any benefits. Ultimately treating thyroid might be the key to solving almost all the problems, but i can't say without giving it a go.
Needing to urinate more is a combination of factors. Reduced testosterone means less estridol in the body. Less estridol means less water retentation and thus needing to urinate more often. Estridol is the reason girls get such smooth and "thick" skin when young. They also hold more weight because they hold more water.
Varicocele effects thyroid hormone (and progesterone), which in turn effects testosterone/estridol/dht/shbg/free levels.
08-08-2008, 08:50 PM
Do you have weight gain. One of main symptoms of hyperthyroidism is weight gain. I dont have that.
Hypothyroid men experience
Low sex drive, delayed ejaculation and erectile dysfunction was a complaint in 64.3% of men
Premature ejaculation was a complaint in 7.1% of men
Hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism in men
Men: Is Your Thyroid Causing Sexual Problems?
Last edited by darkblue1; 08-08-2008 at 08:56 PM. Reason: changed
08-08-2008, 09:27 PM
The best way of treating it is with thyroid medication. This can either be T4, T4/T3 or Armour.
I am getting back some new labs on monday (With Free T3/4 levels) which i will post up.
Also based on the article you have found (i discovered a similar one myself a while back). It makes even more sense now.
08-08-2008, 09:30 PM
The traditional normal laboratory range is relative. Many, especially women, have symptoms -- or are hypothyroid -- when TSH is anywhere but at the lower end of the normal range or 2 or thereabouts.
Many patients with TSH level of 2.0 (not 4.5) or more have classic symptoms and signs of hypothyroidism. Even though their TSH is considered "normal" by traditional standards, many are suffering from under active thyroid or sub-clinical hypothyroidism. If your routine blood work comes back with a TSH of 2.0 and you have symptoms of hypothyroidism, ask your doctor! Chances are your thyroid gland is not working properly
08-08-2008, 09:32 PM
db, you are getting this the wrong way round.
Hypothryoid = Not enough thyroid hormone for our bodys (thus effecting all the glands - testicles inluded)
Hyperthyroid = too much (thus generating TOO much heat, etc).
Hyperthyroid means you have too much thyroid hormone in your bloodstream. Which means your metabolism is faster and thus you LOOSE weight (fat) quicker. This is usually muscle weight if you don't keep an eye on thing's. However due to the increased metabolism, testosterone and other factors improve.
From this article i discovered this:
Low sex drive, delayed ejaculation and erectile dysfunction was a complaint in 64.3% of men
Which matches me perfectly. Intrestingly:
# Low sex drive was a complaint in 17.6% of men
# Erectile dysfunction was a complaint in 14.7%
# Delayed ejaculation was a complaint in 2.9% of men
Which proves thyroid hormone is essential for libido/erections. Notice how the percentage in hyperthyroid are MUCH lower than hypo (which we both are - though sub-clinical).
08-08-2008, 09:50 PM
Some other important things to remember:
- Hypothyroidism causes stress to the body (in all kinds of ways) and thus tires the adrenal glands.
- The adrenals then become the main source of energy for the body (no longer thyroid hormone as much) and thus cause further stress and negative catabolic effects (due to cortisol rise).
- It effects the E2 balance which causes problems.
- Many more things...
Both of us need to get on thyroid medication. This should help both our situations a great deal.
08-08-2008, 10:06 PM
08-08-2008, 10:25 PM
Interesting thread Mega. About 10 years ago during a physical the doc said I had some varicocele but he just told me to wear more supportive briefs and keep an eye on it. I never thought twice about it really until reading your post now.
So I just broke out some past bloodwork to review TSH levels:
6/19/07: 2.30 (range .35 - 5.50)
Any cause for concern? I dont believe I'm experiencing any other symptoms... Perhaps supplementing with some T4/T3 would be of benefit?
08-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Thanks for all the replies guy's, this is very useful in figuring out the whole picture and building a proper case to present to the medical practice.
Royd The Noyd, thanks for posting your blood work. You seem to have the exact same TSH levels as everyone else with varicocele. So this theory is matching up more and more. Have you experienced any testicular atrophy or any symptoms of hypothyroidism (or hypogonadism - low t)?
It would be good to see what your T3/4 levels were like.
08-08-2008, 11:36 PM
It should be noted the bloodwork what type of hormones were being administered:
6/19/07: 2.30 - End of 4 week PCT
10/16/07: 1.94 - End of PCT
2/12/08: 2.97 - Last week of an 8 week cycle
I cannot say that I've experienced any other symptoms. My entire life I was relatively small, fragile, up until about 4 years ago when I started weight training and paying attention to diet/nutrition. Regardless its very difficult for me to put on LBM even with "super supplements". I went from about 150lbs and soft to 215lbs and hard in approx 4-5 years. But it wasnt moving to fast until I started using "super supplements".
My phenotype is ectomorphic in nature however I carry the majority of fat in my abdomen area.
Also I did get T4 (free) tested on the 10/16/07 bloodwork:
1.94 (range .40-5.50)
08-08-2008, 11:43 PM
Now this is getting strange. I literally fit your description 100%. I have long thin limbs, fragile body, low muscle mass and almost zero fat. Very much like yourself.
I was considering going onto TRT and using 200/250mg weekly to see how thing's worked out (splitting the dossage into two weekly shots to keep estridol under control).
I am curious to know if you have ever ran HCG in the past and recovered from testicular atrophy?
08-08-2008, 11:46 PM
08-08-2008, 11:53 PM
Yeah that's pretty much it mate. One day i was oversexual, 8 weeks later after getting a varicocele (Caused by a hit/pull to the groin) i had testicular atrophy, muscle loss, ed/no libido, lack of sesnation, delayed ejaculation, mild depression, felt cold all the time, etc.
The problem is when you are "borderline" hypo, many doctors won't treat you. So i am still searching for a way to get the medication i need and start recovering properly.
How are you doing on the TRT program? Have you noticed good improvements in libido/erection area?
08-08-2008, 11:58 PM
I am wondering if my condition would worsen at a later age. It seems to be stagnant at this time based on symptoms alone.
I actually feel HOT a lot. I seem to have a pretty high resting temperature. Sweat a lot during sleep even in what many would consider a cold room.
08-09-2008, 04:36 PM
When we say to doctors that I got varicocele all of a sudden they dont believe it. I said the same thing to my urologist.He did not beleive it. he said varicoceles wont come all of a sudden you have it by birth. I got varicocele alll of a sudden and my testicles became small, especially left one. I asked him why it happened to me, he said because of bad luck.I also asked him about loss of muscle in limbs and buttocks. He said it's not because of testosterone , but its because of stress and depression. I stopped going to this doctor.
08-09-2008, 06:13 PM
i have a question:
at twelve years old i had a torsio testis, or also known as a twisted testicle.. this was set straight
at 18 years old i had my testosterone levels measured because of ed complaints, it turned out to be 792 ng/dl
apparently no problem and my other testicle is still producing testosterone, so this couldn't have been the cause of my ed
one visit to the urologist he told me i should have no ed problems and did diagnose some veins on my nuts, which could make me infertile, is this the same as varicocele vein??
now 25, still have the varicocele and am being treated for adrenals at the moment (15 mg hc and 30 mg dhea, next month 7-keto-dhea to increase t3 levels)
hopefully this will solve the horrible ed issues, what do you think megazoid?
08-09-2008, 07:13 PM
cumkwakka, that's a varicocele mate. It can cause infertility due to the negative effects on the effected testicle.
Did you suffer testicular atrophy/shrinkage and are you on any kind of TRT/HRT program?
Everyone that has varicocele MUST get there thyroid looked into. Do you have any other symptoms?
Your ED is most likely caused by the varicocele. Something i am going to personally drive home to the medical society.
08-09-2008, 09:38 PM
Hey Megazoid, I have a question, if my varicocele did not start hurting until last week and a half, am I already most likely suffering the effects of varicocele? Right now, my testicles are hanging pretty far down, but they did not seem like they have shrunk..but I am seeing more veins now...and my right side hurts too but I dont see a varicocele..I am only 21, do you think I will need to be on supplements?
08-09-2008, 10:20 PM
Really difficult to say for sure mate. I am only 25 and got varicocele at 23/24, it pretty much ruined my sex life. I had the surgery to fix it and while the pain was resolved, the issues still continued. However i am holding on because i know this is fixable.
Thyroid is being overlooked too much and i believe this is the key problem. Simply because thyroid itself controls blood flow around the body and low levels of thyroid hormone result in slowing down the body.
08-09-2008, 10:44 PM
I see, thanks for your pretty quick response, I was also wondering, since you are now 25, have you done a sperm count to see if you were still fertile? Thats my main worry right now, not being able to father a child in the future
08-09-2008, 10:54 PM
I also meant to add that it took roughly 6/8 weeks to go from having normal erections to suffering libido/ED problems. This was from day one of varicocele to the problems.
It usually takes years of varicocele (high grade) to cause serious fertility problems. Don't worry too much about this right now, because HCG has solved the sperm problems for other varicocele sufferers. In fact one guy had full blown primary hypogonadism (his testicles basically stopped working) and HCG got his sperm count right back up even after that.
08-10-2008, 12:03 AM
alright thanks a lot megazoid, I really wish you find a solution to your problem. You've been a big help to a lot of people. My varicocele is hurting a lot once in awhile and its definitely annoying and frustrating as i cant even walk right...but i probably cant even get surgery till next week and i gotta make sure my urologist there will do surgery for me soon...thanks again
08-10-2008, 04:32 AM
My left nut contains the varicocele but it is not smaller, it's larger than the other one. The difference isn't THAT big. Is this also possible that the nut is enlarged as opposed to smaller?
No not on TRT. At 18 issues started since i then tried having sex. I still had 792 ng/dl test levels. Momentarily i have levels of 397 ng/dl. I am seeing a natural doctor, who has put me on HC and DHEA. FT4 levels are at the top, FT3 is at the lowest on the range (4 at a scale that goes to 8). I am not converting. HC has taken my blood pressure back to normal and gives me more energy. After taking 10 mg HC and 30 mg DHEA i get VERY thirsty, which has never happened before.
I am hoping that once FT3 is up i will have even more energy and better bloodflow all along. I haven't had the time to test this all with my g/f, used to have viagra to keep it up.
My estradiol levels are low also. I am skinny.
Am considering after my next blood test if thyroid and adrenals are supported and test levels haven't come up, to ask for a round of clomid to restart. If that doesn't work might try a natural test booster such as diesel test or tongkat and do my own blood test to see if it comes up. Doc isn't to much on the testosterone, more on the tiredness and HC/Thyroid aspect. I am getting 7-keto-dhea as it's supposed to increase FT3.
Varicocele removal is that dangerous or does it hurt?
10-02-2008, 07:04 AM
man Megazoid you are one smart guy, I would say I probably have this as well, the last week or so I have definetly been noticing I am feeling alot colder, while it has gotten colder outside, not enough for me to be wearing a wool hat and a jacket which I am doing now when it is probably about 55 degrees in my apartment
You are a smart guy Megazoid, what do you do for a living? You should work in the medical field if you dont already, although you might not get far if you dont have some drug to push, one day someone is going to copy all your research and take credit for it and then try to make money off it somehow
11-12-2009, 03:48 PM
02-23-2010, 10:45 PM
03-13-2010, 03:56 PM
I am 27. I got a varicocele when I was 20. Then I was 5-9, 195lbs and very lean.
The varicocele came on quick and painful. I was doing heavy leg presses and then boom, crazy ache in left nut. It didn't go away so I went to the doc that week and he said just to wear tight underwear and forget about it. I got out of seriously weight lifting after that.
Went to a urologist when I was 24 due to the ache and bag of worms still being there and finding out that it could affect fertility. He said he could do the surgery but did not recommend it. I wasn't sure what to do, so I just tried to forget about it.
Now I'm 27. The past two years I have lost all energy, libido and motivation and body temp stayed around 97.6 My primary doc checked my TSH but not my Testosterone. TSH stayed around 2.2. That was about 15 months ago.
I just had new blood work done a few weeks ago by a new doc.
TSH was 7.5
Free T4 was 1.5
Free T3 was 3.2
Free Testosterone Serum was 348
Free Testosterone Direct was 8.1
He put me on a compound version of Armour Thyroid. I've been on it for a week and have noticed some difference in energy. He wants to put me on TRT too. I'm hesitant to go on the TRT because I'm only 27. After reading all the info here I'm wondering if trying to get surgery on the varicocele would be a good idea or not. Its not longer painful like it was, just a little tender sometimes. The left ball used to be bigger than the right, not its just a little over half the size of the right. Whenever I work out, which is rare since I never have energy, the varicocele does get bigger again.
Should I just stick with the Armour and possibly TRT? Or see if surgery and reverse some of these effects?
One last thing, two years ago when I started feeling bad I was also going through some very serious chronic stress issues at home and work which lasted about 18 months. I know cortisol can kill testosterone and mess up thyroid function as well. I'm thinking that could have more to do with it than the varicocele, but the stress is gone now, yet I still have all the effects. Could the varicocele have gotten progressively worse over the years and gradually brought my testosterone down and led to the spiral of symptoms?
Any thought or advice would be greatly appreciated.
03-16-2010, 10:54 AM
Varicocele can contribute to low T, but its more likely the chronic stress (I've experienced both). It can take awhile for the whole system to recover. Correct your adrenals (hydrocortisone if needed), thyroid, and then see where your T level is at. Then add HCG or TRT if necessary. A good doc is critical.
03-17-2010, 10:14 AM
I've noticed your posts on a few varicele threads, particularly interested because we're similar ages with what soundl like similar effects. Unfortunately my surgery isn't until summer as I'm deployed til then, and realized what I had right before leaving, after investigating some mysterious symptoms I initially attributed to melatonin.
Anyway, seems you've had some luck with HCG, which makes me think you're one healthy testicle is in great working order, along with some good function out of your left side. If that's the case, could your problem be pituitary related from stress and worry over the varicocele.
I say that because I've noticed much more effects of this varicocele after researching and worrying about it, and think perhaps I've caused more damage worrying to my endocrine system than if I didn't know about the varicocele. Shrinkage doesn't have to mean less T in the long run, as the leydig cells are a small part of the testicle.
I'm just rambling as I'm stuck on deployment with no hope to verify any of this till summer, but it seems to me many people have atrophy and always assume it's normal and lead normal lives.
Guess that makes this a 3 part question.
Have you tried Clomid, did it work as well as HCG?
After getting a handle on stress did you T levels improve on their own?
What were your symptoms before treating your varicocele?
Thanks much for the info and help!
10-04-2011, 12:05 PM
Now i finally figured out whats going on with me. I've been all over the place pushing testo, AI's meds and stuff trying to reverse my symtoms i went from a oversexual beast to a enuck in a week after damage to my circulation, dilated veins in testicles scrotum (especially left testicle have like a large bag of worms below it). So i stumbled onto some articles on pubmed(cant post links yet) but basically search for variocele and DHT plasma levels on pubmed to get those.
The only thing that put me anywhere near normal again is proviron which is oral DHT(took a few weeks to feel normal). I think variocele ****s up the enzymes 5a reductase converting the testosterone to DHT, so even if you have normal T levels you can feel like **** because it wont convert to DHT, probably it will continue converting to estradiol though. I'm gonna try get an variocele operation see if it improves things. Enzymes are very specific proteins that works only under right circumstances, probably if you get a higher temp due to increased blood flow and also accumulated radicals and metabolites poisoning testicles you will have a dysfunction of the enzymes and cells depending on the conversion. OT: I think the hair loss med propecia disables these enzymes and gives similar symtoms. Those who don't get symtoms from this medication probably have a more robust genetic production of these enzymes.
BTW Megazoid are you and the others still alive, fixed or still active somewhere in a forum?
06-04-2013, 01:07 AM
just noticed i have varicocele and my TSH #'s have always been high.. hmm.
i also have bad heat intolerance and sweat alot.
07-30-2014, 12:41 AM
I noticed a couple of you guys posted about sweating a lot. I have found that for me it is just my balls that are doing most of the sweating, probably because of the increased temperature caused by the dilated veins. If the rest of your body is sweating, I do not think that that is caused by the varicocele.
08-05-2014, 03:48 PM
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