What is the best pro-hormone for the average user? - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 3

What is the best pro-hormone for the average user?

Page 3 of 3 First 123
  1. New Member
    Deadlift3's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  184 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    193
    Rep Power
    175

    Reputation

    Do you also need a serm for these type of ph's?

  2. Advanced Member
    ktatro1's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  176 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Age
    26
    Posts
    563
    Rep Power
    350

    Reputation

    not for all prohormones. with the more mild PHs it is usually ok to run an OTC AI/serm type pct. For harder PHs or DS, yes a serm is usually the way to go, but without supplement names, its hard to point you in the right direction.
  3. New Member
    Deadlift3's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  184 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    193
    Rep Power
    175

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by ktatro1 View Post
    not for all prohormones. with the more mild PHs it is usually ok to run an OTC AI/serm type pct. For harder PHs or DS, yes a serm is usually the way to go, but without supplement names, its hard to point you in the right direction.
    Lets say 1-Androsterone and 4-ad? Do I need a serm? And do you think its smart to do a cycle of 1-ad while pulsing SD 3 days a week? Would it be beneficial?
    •   
       

  4. New Member
    American_Giant's Avatar
    Stats
    6'6"  270 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    62

    Reputation

    1-Androsterone + 4-Androsterone. where can this be bought?

    is taking just nolva a good pct?
  5. New Member
    HitMyMrk's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1
    Rep Power
    56

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by LegalGear View Post
    What makes the best prohormone for the average user?

    This question is one that many people want answered before they put something into their body. So, what really makes the best pro-hormone for people to use? First we need to understand the difference between prohormones and steroids and decipher the many products on the market that use both steroids and pro-hormones in their formulations.

    Steroids are active hormones in the body that are naturally produced or unnaturally taken to perform a specific task. Steroids are NOT anabolic steroids, there is a difference. Steroids can be birth control, cortisone or even cholesterol. Something that is a steroid isn’t anabolic (builds muscle) and it doesn’t make the item illegal. Legal steroids that are not anabolic that you will find in a health food store are: progesterone creams and pregnenolone. These are all considered steroids but they are NOT anabolic steroids or androgens. So, the word steroid is like “vehicle” composed of trucks, bikes, motorcycles and cars. It is a generic term that has no real meaning other than to classify a compound.

    Under this is a class called Androgens, which are anabolic steroids that are derived from testosterone and its analogs. These testosterone derivatives are the typical suspects that one would see on the black market or in cancer patients. Products like “deca” (nandrolone), equipoise (boldenone) or D-Bol (methandrostenolone) compose this class of drugs. Some anabolic steroids are sold as dietary supplements because they are not classified as drugs by the DEA. These are NOT legal however, since the FDA doesn’t recognize them as dietary supplements. The problem is that the FDA has a hard job in enforcing laws such as DSHEA. There is another class of legal products designed to increase levels of androgens legally and these are called prohormones.

    Illegal anabolic steroids are classified into two groups: oral anabolic steroids and injectable anabolic steroids. Oral steroids have a 17aMethyl group which blocks liver enzymes and therefore can cause liver enzymes to increase. Often grey market anabolic steroids (ones not classified by the DEA, yet not legal by FDA standards) use this 17a Methyl delivery system to increase potency. This delivery method should be clearly visible on the product information as in the grey market prohormone 4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1, 4-diene-3-17b-diol. This product is actually a prohormone but one that contains the 17a-methyl delivery system, making it liver stressful. Compounds that are in this category on the open market usual have a “Halo”, “Phera” or “Drol” in their name. They are clone products of the products ruled upon by the FDA in 2005 as not being DHSEA compliant. Also, black market steroids such as “D-bol”, “Anadrol 50” and “Winstrol” have this liver stressing delivery system. Injectable steroids do not share this liver stressing situation and they are not sold as supplements, since the FDA prohibits anything sold as a supplement from being injected however they are available on the black market as “Equipoise”, “Deca” and “Test Prop” or “Sustenon 250”. Injectables do not carry the liver stress of the oral pills, but they have their own set of issues like the need for often painful injections. Are these the best prohormone for the average guy? I think not, since they are either illegal or grey and are not always safe. I think the best prohormone is actually one that IS a prohormone vs. an anabolic steroid. If you see a 17aMethyl in the ingredient name, it is probably a grey market steroid, so look for the 17aMethyl to avoid liver stress if that is a concern for you. If you see a 17aMethyl in the ingredient name, it is probably a grey market steroid, so look for the 17aMethyl to avoid liver stress if that is a concern for you and if you wish to stay with legal products.


    There is another option which I feel is the best product for the average person, which is a TRUE prohormone. PRO means precursor to, or converts into. Provitamin A (beta carotene) is a vitamin that converts into vitamin A via an enzyme system. These “pro” drugs or “pro” supplements are much safer since your body converts them to active constituents as they are needed. True “pro” hormones are things that convert to testosterone and testosterone analogs in the body in order to be fully active. They do not carry the liver stress of the grey market steroids either which is a big benefit for long term use. Some pro-hormones are 100% legal by both the DEA and the FDA (complying with DHSEA) and will be outlined later. The FDA laws require that the hormone be naturally occurring and ALSO be sold as a dietary supplement intended for that use prior to 1994 (which is conveniently forgotten by many supplement companies). Things like Estra 4,9-Diene are not DSHEA compliant because they were not sold as dietary supplements prior to 1994, which makes them only legal if the companies in question apply for a New Dietary Ingredient Status which is costly and takes time. The FDA is slower to react, which is why this stuff is on the market, so people feel comfortable breaking FDA law, while DEA law is another matter entirely.

    Here is a short list of pro-hormones that are on the market and my opinion on their legal status and listing them in potency:

    Relative Potency of TRUE Prohormones:
    1-Androsterone (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) - Rating 10
    ** Search 1-Androstene-3b-ol,17-one
    (best used for size and strength gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-600mg/Day)

    4,9 Estra-Diene (DEA Legal, NOT Currently DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 9.5
    (best used for size gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300mg/Day)
    ** Search 4,9 Estra-Diene

    19Nor-Androsterone (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 8.5
    ** Search Norandrostene-3b-ol,17-one
    (best for safe size gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-400mg/Day)

    5a-epiAndrosterone (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 8.5
    ** Search epihydroxyetioallocholan-17-one
    (best for cutting cycles and strength gains in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300-600mg/Day)

    11-keto-Androstenedione (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
    ** Search Adrenosterone
    (best for mild gains and mild fat loss in cycles of 4-6 weeks @ 300mg/Day)

    DHEA Ethanoate Ester (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
    (400-500mg per day)

    4-Androsterone (DEA Legal, Pending DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 7
    ** Search 4-Androstene-3b-ol,17-one
    (400-800mg/Day)

    1,4 Andro-dione (DEA Legal, NOT DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 6.5
    ** Search Boldione
    (300-600mg/Day)

    DHEA (DEA Legal, DSHEA Compliant) – Rating 5
    (500-800mg/Day)

    Here are some good stacked items:
    Ultimate Mass Stack
    1-Androsterone + 4-Androsterone = Combination of wet and dry compounds for maximum gains

    Ultimate Wet Size Stack
    4-Androsterone + 1,4 Andro-dione = both can help you retain water weight for hard gainers who need instant “looks”

    Ultimate Cutting Stack
    5aEpiAndrosterone + 11-keto-Androstenedione = combination of anti-estrogenic, lipolytic and cortisol reducing effects

    Ultimate Safety Stack
    19NorAndrosterone + 11-Keto-Androstenedione = combination of mild prohormones

    Ultimate Strength Stack
    1-Androsterone + 5aEpiAndrosterone = crazy strength gains (use the 5aEpi right before working out)

    These products are much closer to what the government intended as a dietary supplement, meaning that they are not active anabolic steroids yet still provide benefits for the bodybuilder. They are usually quite potent yet do not carry the liver stress that the grey market steroids may have with the 17aMethyl delivery system. 1-Androsterone is the most potent prohormone on the market and although it is not an anabolic steroid, it does give your body the raw materials to make it’s own active steroids, which should give a nice increase to muscles without suffering negative side effects seen with the grey market steroids on the market (often referred to wrongly as “prosteroids” which is a misnomer since they are not “pro” anything, they don’t need to convert to be active and are not dependent on the body’s enzymes). This product is pending a study that will prove it to be DSHEA compliant and once that is complete we should expect to see 1-Androsterone products on the market, since it is the best choice for the average bodybuilder. The other products are all good too and have some distinct advantages as well. 1-Androsterone or “1-Andro” is the best for raw size and strength but others have some very good benefits, making them good choices for the “best prohormone for the average guy” 19NorAndrosterone has very little negative side effects like hairloss and prostate enlargement and is great for long term use and by people over 45, which makes it a very mild prohormone that may even increase hair growth and reduce the prostate size. 5aAndrosterone or 5aEpiAndrosterone is a great product for cutting body fat and increasing focus and intensity, since it stimulates both the mind and the muscle via natual pathways. 11-Keto-Androstenedione has the benefit of also cutting cortisol, which is healthy and good for cutting body fat. So, depending on the desired goals each hormone has some very positive benefits.

    All androgenic steroids and their precursors carry some minor issues that should be addressed. It is possible to lose hair when the androgenic profile of the body is changed. Additionally, the body is subject to many side effects that can occur in people, so it is best to check with a doctor prior to use and to stop using prohormones if there are any side effects that are noticed. I believe that TRUE prohormones can be used for 4-12 week cycles and that they are extremely safe when used in this manner. I can’t say the same for the illegal grey market 17a Methyl steroids on the market. In my opinion, they will not harm you long term and their safety is not horrible like the media suggests, but they are illegal and the FDA made a ruling in 2005 that these products should not be on the market as dietary supplements, so they are not legal in my book.

    I think the best prohormone for the average bodybuilder is one that balances the factors that I have identified. Legality is one factor and although you can get illegal grey market steroids like “Halo, Phera and Drol”, these products put all dietary supplements at risk and are really bad for your freedom to access quality dietary supplements. I don’t believe that the 17aMethyl products are terribly dangerous even thought they raise liver enzymes, but they are not something to be taken lightly. Also as I stated they limit your future access to legal DSHEA compliant dietary supplements like creatine and amino acids. Please understand to the media and congress, steroids are ANYTHING that builds muscle, so to them even protein is considered a steroid and certainly there have been many movements to ban creatine for example. So, making a choice from the list of DSHEA compliant pro-hormones is a vote for legal and defensible sports supplements. Once the FDA made a decision to specify certain products as not DSHEA compliant in 2005, it is best to avoid purchasing these items and to support legal, DSHEA compliant products as a way to ensure we have freedom to potent, yet safe dietary supplements for some time.

    The good news is that choosing a product off the legal list will give you some serious advantages as well! First, 17aMethyl steroids will make you gain 10-15lbs in two weeks, BUT they are gains that you are most likely to lose since your body has not adjusted to the extra size. Staying on a 17aMethyl product for more than two weeks isn’t advisable since raised liver enzymes are not something you want to have for long cycles. Choosing a pro-hormone that puts on size at a slower rate is actually a much better idea in my opinion. Gains with the DSHEA compliant pro-hormones can range from 7-17 lbs in a month. Certainly they are much slower, but they are gains that you can actually maintain and keep. This is actually a huge advantage since your body wants to be in a state of homeostasis whenever possible. Homeostasis is basically maintaining what you’ve been and resisting change. Only slow and steady changes in your body are permanent so although the lure of 15lbs in two weeks is nice and I have done it myself, the only thing that really made any difference in my physique was continual slow changes. That is why doctors recommend slow weight loss to crash diets and long term hormone use vs. quick cycles that cause you to gain tons of muscle in a short amount of time. We all know those kids in high school that did steroids and were huge for one football season yet now are tiny and scrawny. (I have a friend like this…I saw him a few years ago and you would never even know he did steroids) I have been able to change my body’s set point for muscle by doing long and steady cycles of LEGAL pro-hormones over many years. This is why it is so important to support legal supplements, since your goals for pro-hormone use should be thought in terms of years vs. weeks. You can’t plan for the year if your access to potent, safe and legal dietary pro-hormones is cut short because they get lumped in with the grey market steroids. So, in my opinion a pro-hormone that you can use safely for 8 weeks is much better than a short two or three week cycle. Also, it is one that you can use for 4 cycles a year vs. only one or two cycles a year. It may take longer to get the results, but they are results that you can keep for years to come and enjoy for a life time.

    So, balance your pro-hormone pick on side effects, goals and desired effect and make a positive choice that supports freedom and safe use yet gives maximum effects. Also, price is a factor, since the more potent the product, usually the higher price point (price is amount plus dose required). My final thought is to vary the types of legal pro-hormone you use for each cycle since I truly believe that the body adapts to one type of pro-hormone used consistently. Also, stacking pro-hormones is a good choice since they often have different functions. I hope this article helps put these products in perspective and helps you make an informed choice on which products are the best for making gains while being safe and responsible. In my next article, I will discuss timing your pro-hormone doses for maximum effect.

    Please do not put trade names of other people's products in ths thread. If you wish to buy other peoples stuff, that is cool, but please at least keep our forum clean!
    Hey Eric, about to order some LG porducts just want some direction on the most effective stack allowing me to pack on 20 or so lbs in approx. 6 weeks or less. Looking for something comp. to ax 3-ad and mass fx... Looking for the most powerful stack LG has to offer. I've found the Methyl 1-d, Methyl Masterdrol, Natadrol, and Formadrol (pct) waiting for your suggestion. I'm 42yo, 6'1 200lbs, been training for approx. 28yrs
  6. New Member
    maddog28's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    292
    Rep Power
    204

    Reputation

    can some one give me a stack or supplements of the ultimate saftey stack? ive been trying to find some ph's with the 19NorAndrosterone + 11-Keto-Androstenedione!???
  7. Diamond Member
    VolcomX311's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    13,250
    Rep Power
    78135

    Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by HitMyMrk View Post
    Hey Eric, about to order some LG porducts just want some direction on the most effective stack allowing me to pack on 20 or so lbs in approx. 6 weeks or less. Looking for something comp. to ax 3-ad and mass fx... Looking for the most powerful stack LG has to offer. I've found the Methyl 1-d, Methyl Masterdrol, Natadrol, and Formadrol (pct) waiting for your suggestion. I'm 42yo, 6'1 200lbs, been training for approx. 28yrs
    20lbs of sheer, unadulterated lean body mass is not realistic in 6 weeks. 20lbs in general, including plenty of fat and water is, but not 20lbs of LBM.
    NSCA - CSCS
  8. Senior Member
    Bravoboy's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  218 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    1,144
    Rep Power
    20236

    Reputation

    No doubt about that.
  9. New Member
    EXDOUS's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  214 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    17
    Rep Power
    66

    Reputation

    I'm looking for a quick jump in my physique and workouts. I was on the m-stack and now I'm looking for another product that has a little more strength I dont really need much. Which oone of these should I get?
  10. Advanced Member
    Broly's Avatar
    Stats
    6'6"  212 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    535
    Rep Power
    6576

    Reputation

    I've found this thread extremely interesting, but one thinf that suprised me most was the last prohormone on the list, DHEA, with a recomended dosage of 500/800mg a day, so I wonder, how could I use DHEA at these dosages and to what purposes?
    Plus, if I cycle it wich are the main concerns that I should have in mind and how can I counter them?
    I mean, I know that DHEA would convert into testosterone (and consequently estrogen) but at these dosages I've never read something about it nor about its effects.
  11. New Member
    zchen's Avatar
    Stats
    5'6"  149 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    8
    Rep Power
    50

    Reputation

    This thread may need a update. Boldione (androsta-1,4-diene-3,17-dione) and Tren (19-nor-4,9(10)-androstadienedione (estra-4,9(10)-diene-3,17-dione)) are now banned.
  12. New Member
    Finna Tay Ya's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    3
    Rep Power
    50

    Reputation

    I've got (5a)-androsten-17a-methyl-176-ol-3-one. 10mg capsules. What's a typical dosage for this?
  13. New Member
    jluisbarriga's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    22

    Reputation

    Smile


    I am looking to try one of these stacks can someone help me? I am trying to put on lean mass, if you need anymore info let me know. lg science seems to be the only company that has good reviews for their product.
  14. Banned
    JD261985's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  171 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,702
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    This is a very old thread but the original post by Eric is extremely informative and makes a lot of sense
  15. New Member
    bigflex0's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  235 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    356
    Rep Power
    143075

    Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by JD261985 View Post
    This is a very old thread but the original post by Eric is extremely informative and makes a lot of sense
    It sure does still relevant information to be found here. Thank you for taking the time to read it.
    LG Sciences/Legal Gear Rep
    Nothing I state is medical advice and is for informational purposes only.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 12-11-2011, 01:25 PM
  2. best pro-hormone for strength gains
    By garryb13 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-10-2008, 09:42 AM
  3. What's the best pro-hormone to gain mass?
    By JockoJohnson in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-16-2008, 07:40 PM
  4. Is there a Pro-hormone for cutting?
    By bert4332 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 05-24-2006, 07:47 AM
  5. The best Protien Bar for the buck?
    By bpdaddy in forum Supplements
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 02-04-2003, 08:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in