whats the worst that could happen

[mw525]

if you run trifecta stack at 19...i currently have many friends running ph cycles back to back and i always tell them it is extremely bad to run it at such a young age..but they never believe me because i do not know the actual sides or permanant damge

 

[Steveoph]

You could permanently screw up your natural test production and have to go on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of your life.

 

[mw525]

wow that makes me extremely happy to never have touched the stuff

 

[Steveoph]

Worst case scenario though; with proper PCT and reasonable cycles there is very little chance of that. Back to back with no PCT though, and they're setting themselves up for it if they don't smarten up.

 

[mw525]

so what if they ran it perfectly...like cycle support before and proper pct nolva and a test booster...probably nothing?/

 

[Steveoph]

so what if they ran it perfectly...like cycle support before and proper pct nolva and a test booster...probably nothing?/

Correct, which is how many guys do it on the forums. You may put extra strain on the liver with methyls, but that is countered by Cycle Support. The suppression of your natural production can be minimized using hCG for long cycles, or just properly timed short ones/pulsing. If done properly, I think it can be relatively safe. Nothing wrong with going all natural though , more respect to you for it :bandit:

 

[mw525]

so what is a relatively safe or non-methylated ph that i could recomend to someone that is not willing to give up ph

 

[Steveoph]

LG may have some; A popular one is 19-Norandrosta 4,9 diene 3,17 dione. Perhaps start a thread in the anabolics section for more replies.

 

[Craigmatthew]

We always recommend being 21+ to run PH's.

 

[EasyEJL]

wow that makes me extremely happy to never have touched the stuff

how about

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZpLjpiatoc"]YouTube - Gynecomastia & You & Me[/ame]

 

[Dadof2]

Here is the thing about ph's, anabolic steroids, designers, etc. They are a tool, not a means to an end.

With proper training and nutrition supplements, or in this case, pro-hormones can help someone in their quest to improve their physique/strength. However, they are not magic bullets.

I know guys who used to do serious juice (injectables stacked with hardcore orals such as Anadrol) and workout like animals, and as a result they were the some of the biggest guys in the gym. Some of those guys don't even train anymore, and you know what? They look like anyone else who doesn't work out.


So while they were something to look at while they were juicing in the end all of those drugs have not benefited them at all. Hopefully those guys did things the right way and they are not suffering from hormone problems, hardened arteries or any of the other issues that misuse of steroids can cause.

Odds are that your friends are heading down a similar path. One day they will just look like any other schmoe, except maybe they will be on testosterone replacemet meds, blood pressure pills, etc.

The pitiful thing is that young guys that age rarely know **** about training and nutrition(they usually think they know, but odds are they don't). If they would focus their energies into learning how to eat and how to train, they would have fantastic results. Couple that knowledge with staple supplements such as Creatine and BCAA's then they would really see some great gains.

Be an example, not a follower. If you love bodybuilding then learn it inside and out. Apply your knowledge to build your body, and be a leader. Save the hormones for when you are older, wiser, and have a solid foundation of knowledge/physical development to take your physique to another level.

 

[suncloud]

You could permanently screw up your natural test production and have to go on hormone replacement therapy for the rest of your life.

worst case scenario by far.

here's best case scenario. your hormones are trying to stabilize, and you're shutting down your natural testosterone production causing an effect similar to a "false positive". your hormones recover with a perfect PCT at a level lower than normal, because it took your crashed hormonal levels and tried to average it into the mix.

will you notice that 1-5% loss of testosterone? probably not. will you notice what adding 5% to your total test would do when you're 30? you betcha.

not that i can back that up with studies, because its illegal to conduct those studies

 

[Aggravated]

I am not so sure I would take a chance if I were 19. Better to wait anyway IMO.

 

[mw525]

reaally good info guys thankss alott

 

[EasyEJL]

worst case scenario by far.

here's best case scenario. your hormones are trying to stabilize, and you're shutting down your natural testosterone production causing an effect similar to a "false positive". your hormones recover with a perfect PCT at a level lower than normal, because it took your crashed hormonal levels and tried to average it into the mix.

will you notice that 1-5% loss of testosterone? probably not. will you notice what adding 5% to your total test would do when you're 30? you betcha.

not that i can back that up with studies, because its illegal to conduct those studies

see you left out that part of the best case scenario is that you likely dont keep much of the gains anyhow. If you are 19 and not managing to gain as it is, then you aren't eating enough, and will loose the gains after cycle anyhow

 

[mw525]

see you left out that part of the best case scenario is that you likely dont keep much of the gains anyhow. If you are 19 and not managing to gain as it is, then you aren't eating enough, and will loose the gains after cycle anyhow

who said anything about these kids not gaining..two are npc teen competitors

 

[EasyEJL]

if they are already gaining, then why bother with juicing?

 

[suncloud]

see you left out that part of the best case scenario is that you likely dont keep much of the gains anyhow. If you are 19 and not managing to gain as it is, then you aren't eating enough, and will loose the gains after cycle anyhow

you're right about that. i covered that in my bulking link http://anabolicminds.com/forum/training-forum/99607-gaining-mass-nutshell.html

If your diet is off, how can you possibly maintain your gains anyways?

 

[mw525]

if they are already gaining, then why bother with juicing?

juicing=ph?

and because please give me an instance in the world where somebody wouldnt want to gain faster, easier, and more efficiently considering they dont take their health into consideration becuase that was the whole point of this thread

you could not possibly be saying that someone that has their training down and the diet down and the sleep down would get better gains leaving ph out of the equation

 

[EasyEJL]

no but the difference is much smaller than you think over time. If you gain 8 lbs in 4 weeks on a ph, loose 1lbs during 4 weeks of pct, then stay flat for first month post pct, and gain another 2 the month following, you've gained 9lbs in 4 months. if you can gain 2 a month natural, you've gained 8 anyhow without the strain on your body. thats a whopping 3lbs a year difference if you continuously cycle on and off. Not worth if if you are still gaining anyhow.

 

[mw525]

ok but now your making up the scenarios when thats not the case at all..i said back to back meaning once they finish pct its onto another ph

 

[mw525]

and just asking as a question..if you ran one ph why cant you gain on you pct or the month after as effectievly?? does it have to do with hormone or test levels at all or are you just saying as natural gains

 

[EasyEJL]

i'm making up safe scenarios. you said

so what if they ran it perfectly...like cycle support before and proper pct nolva and a test booster...probably nothing?/

and thats what i'm talking about. running back to back eventually leads to loss of testicular function - sterility + little to no testosterone, lower growth hormone levels, lower igf levels

 

[EasyEJL]

and just asking as a question..if you ran one ph why cant you gain on you pct or the month after as effectievly?? does it have to do with hormone or test levels at all or are you just saying as natural gains

its just the way it seems to work out in reality. The gains are largely there because of the external hormone, and very few people if any seem to hold it all, much less gain anything. most guys if they take in enough calories to continue "gains" gain only fat in PCT.

 

[mw525]

i'm making up safe scenarios. you said



and thats what i'm talking about. running back to back eventually leads to loss of testicular function - sterility + little to no testosterone, lower growth hormone levels, lower igf levels

yea they do cycle suppurt and pct but once there done theyll run it all over again imedieatly instead of time on+pct=time off isnt that the rule not time on+pct=start another ph right away

 

[EasyEJL]

yeah, eventually you have to stop doing that, or you end up with significant liver damage. and when they finally stop, you'll get to watch them deflate like balloons as they will not be able to hold those gains any longer.... it should be funny at the very least.

 

[mw525]

hahaha...so in your opinion what is the age to do a ph i know 21 i recomended but everyoens bodys are different so what is the overall safest time

 

[EasyEJL]

anywhere after that is likely ok, its best to keep on natural with the basics of creatine, beta alanine, etc until you reach a sticking point sometime after that, run a single short cycle to break thru and then continue on natural. more than 2 cycles a year eventually becomes unmaintainable after 4-5 years.

 

[mw525]

anything i can recomennd to these guys..there doing epi and phera and **** like that...more mild phs..i searched for the one that stevoph gave me but found a thread saying something about that not being able to bond and fake or something like that

 

[EasyEJL]

really its more the volume of doing it, plus the no rest to let your body stabilize that is the problem. once they've already run a few cycles of phera, the growth plates are closed and all that other negative stuff is already in play, shifting to something lighter to run the same piss poor way wont fix anything

Look around on this board, or anywhere else for that matter. If it was that easy to just take cycle after cycle and gain 8-10lbs per cycle at 6 cycles a year like your buds are doing, then we'd have thousands of 300lb guys at 6% bf running around. And we dont...............

 

[Aggravated]

Good advice here Easy.