Customer Peptide Manufacturing

[papapumpsd]

Title should read: Custom Peptide Manufacturing
Moderator, is discussion regarding custom peptide manufacturers, practices, pricing, quality standards, etc. acceptable?

Nobody post; please wait until Moderator responds.

Thanks,

-Papa!-

 

[papapumpsd]

Hmmm....Mod want to comment here please? Um waiting patiently...ho humm....de dumm......*yawn*.... ;-P

 

[babyblu]

Papa did you pm the mods?

bb

 

[bioman]

I think as long as you do not link to said custom manufacturers, it's ok.

My knowledge of this area is hazy at best, but since only HGH is illegal, you should be ok. We will, of course, defer to B5150 or Bobo's final verdict.

 

[papapumpsd]

Papa did you pm the mods?

bb

BB, no I didn't. Not sure which one to contact. I will hit up one of the two mentioned above.

EDIT: how do I find BoBo so I can PM him? You guys know of a way I can find a mod fast? I wish there was a way to see which mods were online at any given time. Ugh. Help?

 

[datBtrue]

I can answer the question.

Here is what is clearly NOT appropriate:

The name or link to any legitimate custom peptide manufacturer. They sell peptides for research and they do not wink or sell to people for human consumption.

The name or link to where brokers for Chinese peptide manufaturers advertise their "bargains".

The pricing of specific peptides.​

What is appropriate:

The discussion of the science of peptide synthesis, desalting, purification & analysis.

Discussion of storage, reconstitution and the like.

Discussion of the synthesizing machines, lypholizers, etc..

Discussion of the amino acids, etc.​

What did you want this thread to discuss Pap?

In general based on my contact North American & European manufatures will discount for bulk purchase but you need to purchase 1000 grams+ before pricing is reasonable. Then you have to pay for aliquating service if you want the bulk lypholized into smaller containers...this can get to be expensive.

So if the peptide doesn't oxidize you save a lot by doing that yourself.

You won't run into any problems buying and paying for the cold shipping from those manufacturers because all the paper work for customs is provided, everything is legal and you are buying for research ...they won't sell to you otherwise. They are the same places that sell peptides for the research that is done in published studies. Their names are often cited in those studies as well.

The Chinese are a whole different kind of "service". With them you NEED to have an independent analysis done on the received compounds to verify EXACTLY what it is you receive, purity level and contaminents.

You see the problem is that chemicals are used in the peptide synthesis process and for in vitro studies it doesn't matter if these peptides are "clean". But for use in clinical trials it does matter because these things are toxic to the human body.

 

[papapumpsd]

I can answer the question.

Here is what is clearly NOT appropriate:

The name or link to any legitimate custom peptide manufacturer. They sell peptides for research and they do not wink or sell to people for human consumption.

The name or link to where brokers for Chinese peptide manufaturers advertise their "bargains".

The pricing of specific peptides.​

What is appropriate:

The discussion of the science of peptide synthesis, desalting, purification & analysis.

Discussion of storage, reconstitution and the like.

Discussion of the synthesizing machines, lypholizers, etc..

Discussion of the amino acids, etc.​

What did you want this thread to discuss Pap?

In general based on my contact North American & European manufatures will discount for bulk purchase but you need to purchase 1000 grams+ before pricing is reasonable. Then you have to pay for aliquating service if you want the bulk lypholized into smaller containers...this can get to be expensive.

So if the peptide doesn't oxidize you save a lot by doing that yourself.

You won't run into any problems buying and paying for the cold shipping from those manufacturers because all the paper work for customs is provided, everything is legal and you are buying for research ...they won't sell to you otherwise. They are the same places that sell peptides for the research that is done in published studies. Their names are often cited in those studies as well.

The Chinese are a whole different kind of "service". With them you NEED to have an independent analysis done on the received compounds to verify EXACTLY what it is you receive, purity level and contaminents.

You see the problem is that chemicals are used in the peptide synthesis process and for in vitro studies it doesn't matter if these peptides are "clean". But for use in clinical trials it does matter because these things are toxic to the human body.

Well ladies 'N gentlemen, that basically sums it up! Thanks Dat....I was researching peptide mfgs. I had a few questions, but you seemed to have cleared them up in one post. HA HA. good stuff dood!

I agree 150% on the Chinese products......absolutely! I had no clue 1 kg was where pricing discounts came into play...umm...that's a $hitload! Cheers brother!

-Papa!-

 

[datBtrue]

Well ladies 'N gentlemen, that basically sums it up! Thanks Dat....I was researching peptide mfgs. I had a few questions, but you seemed to have cleared them up in one post. HA HA. good stuff dood!

I agree 150% on the Chinese products......absolutely! I had no clue 1 kg was where pricing discounts came into play...umm...that's a $hitload! Cheers brother!

-Papa!-

No every place is different. In North America it is more expensive and there are price breaks at all quantity levels -100grams, 500grams, 1000grams.

You see MOST peptide synthesizers can not make more than 1000grams at a time. There are plenty of bigger manufacturers all over the world. In China they seem to invest in huge plnts for EVERYTHING and so they need to make as much use of their plant as possible.

There costs seem to be lower in China not just because the size of their plant BUT those same or neighboring facilities also manufacture the raw materials (i.e. amino acids and reagent chemicals).

It is a gross error on my part to taint the Chinese manufacturing. That is a generalization that is only fair IF you don't know who you are dealing with. There pricing by the way IS worth looking into ...especially if you go into it with a few friends. So please don't let me dissuade you... I just want you to be aware that the area is loaded with "brokers" who may not have your best interests at heart so just deal with the legitimate manufacturers directly.

Okay now that we have covered that lets talk about peptides. Each manufacturer has a catalogue of peptides that they routinely synthesize. Some places just have a few items other places a thousand. They all have standard reference numbers.

There are for instance antagonists for "Growth Hormone Releasing Peptide" that may be listed. These would be suitable for anti-cancer research.

The wonderful thing about dealing with a manufacturer is that you can have them custom synthesize any peptide (off catalogue). So in the studies & patents a group may have created a GHRH antagonist for a specific type of cancer. That group may have studied it and shown that it has a special characteristic of penetrating the blood brain barrier for use in brain tumours. Then they may have a study or two showing that it stopped the brain tumour from metastizing [sic] and maybe in conjuction with chemotherapy they have a statistical higher cure rate (as opposed to mere survival rate) in patients givien this conjunctive therapy.

Of course this therapy would have been experimental & pre-approved by say NIH.

Well you can get the basic structure for THE GHRH-antagonist that was used succesfully in the study and have the peptide synthesizer make it for your own research.

This is just an example. Say you like tanning peptides and the sexual side effect. You notice in the literature that an amino acid side chain attached to the peptide enhanced the sexual side effect even more. Well you can have them make THAT peptide if you give them the formula.

Custom made peptides are priced based on the number of amino acids tht make up the peptide. GHRP-6 is just six aminio acids & simple & cheap to make. Long structure say 100 amino acids and up have to be done piecemeal and then linked. This process is more complex and costly. A lot of small peptide synthesizers don't have this capablitity.

Then you have to look at the amino acids & terminals themselves. The D form of an amino is more costly then the L form...different terminals have different costs. If you want your peptide to bioconjugate with say albumin in plasma then you need to have the peptide synthesizer attach this bioconjugation complex. You NEED to know which one because there ain't just one method.

You want to create your own longer lasting peptide then pegylation is a simple thing to add. BUT you need to comb the studies to see IF & how the pegylation process changes bioactivity. By-the-way patent searchers often give you great info. in this regard.

I'm tired of typing...but please please don't think we have exhausted this topic. My previous post wasn't the be all and end all on this topic by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[papapumpsd]

Dat, thanks a lot for elaborating. Really great info here. And to clarify, I did not take your comment regarding Chinese mfg's as being negative toward them. I agreed with you because I do NOT personally know any mfgs, thus would need to do post-mfg QA. But, ideally, one would do his/her due diligence and discover the "who's who" in Chinese mfg of peptides.

From my research (limited), I too noticed that mfgs price based on # of AAs in the peptide. Also, additional fees for, as you mentioned, pegylation, termini, etc.

Do you know if the end product is supplied sterile & lyophilized? I believe you said that aliquots into vials (for larger orders) is an additional cost (makes sense).

Also, do you have to be a legitimate R&D company to order peptides? I know that certain chemicals/reagents, for example, are only available to R&D facilities (registered) if you want to order from VWR or Sigma Aldrich. ??

-Papa!-

 

[datBtrue]

Do you know if the end product is supplied sterile & lyophilized? I believe you said that aliquots into vials (for larger orders) is an additional cost (makes sense).

Also, do you have to be a legitimate R&D company to order peptides? I know that certain chemicals/reagents, for example, are only available to R&D facilities (registered) if you want to order from VWR or Sigma Aldrich. ??

-Papa!-

The peptides are always lyophilized (i.e. freeze dried).

The problem is that MOST legitimate purchases of peptides are not for clinical trials (human use). So often they are not fit for human consumption. There is a process called desalting and HPLC which should remove the impurities but isn't always done.

Purity level means the reciprocal percent of the remainder (made up of basically random amino chains that didn't form properly). Only 98% purity level is acceptable for human use w/ a small 2% making up the remainder.

Low purity levels are fine for places that just want the peptide as a reference. A lot of research is just compiling huge libraries of reference peptides and analyzing them ...looking for similarities...or characteristics which can lead them into discovering new peptides...or processes

Anyway 95% purity level is too low for humans because 5% is too high a level to be injecting "junk".

I was told that GHRP-6 doesn't oxidize rapidly so I could buy a large amount in a single big vial and then break it down myself in the open air and freeze the small batches.

But GRF{1-29} (basically GHRH) contains one or more amino acid couplings that are more suceptable to oxygen breakdown. Would it be better for them to aliquot this compound for me...yes.

You see the lyophilizer machine freeze dries and aliquots in a pressurized limited oxygen environment in one process.

As far as reagents being available only to licensed facilities I don't think so. I'm talking about those involved in peptide synthesis.

I looked into buying the peptide synthesizing machines. They make automated ones with modular canisters for amino acids and the reagent. You just purchase these canisters from the supplier and insert them into your machine. You use the computer to choose the formula and process and then just run the process. Simple...

...but HPLC would have to be done afterwords. Also the length of the peptide chain is limited. GHRP-6 is just a few aminos & simple to make...no problem. BUT IGF-1 forget about it. Then I could not find the "D" form of amino acids in canister form from these suppliers of automated machines.

Does that mean they don't sell them or the machines are not capable of assembling them into a chain? I don't know.

So instead I looked at nonautomated machines which can do it all BUT require a greater knowledge of chemistry.

By-the-way there is no mystery in finding facilities with this type of machinary willing to make peptides for you. Many Universities will do this...they need to recoup the investment in these machines. There are hundreds of places small, medium and large that are in this business. You can learn a lot from them BUT they are stricter in the US (meaning IF they get a hint that you are not a legitimate researcher they won't deal with you).

Now these "closer to home" places will sell you large batches for a lower price but the pricing is still too high. A Canadian firm had reasonable pricing BUT they seem to have gone out of business.

The places with good pricing are primarily in Asia. Unfortunately some of those places will sell you ANYTHING (including things that are illegal in the U.S.) which means they are on a watch list and any money transfer to them or package sent to you will come under scrutiny by enforcement agencies. Even though your purchase may be legal it still has very negative feel to it...you know what I mean?

Thats as far as this thread should go on general discussion of costs. Believe me this is a beautiful forum BECAUSE of the steps they take in keeping this place safe, legal and comfortable.

 

[pumbertot]

and above are the reasons you should only deal with a mfg that will send you small samples of their products of interest and then you should pay to have an analysis done. it isnt cheap but well worth it.

 

[BLACK747]

good imfo alot of the peptides are overpriced big time and that is excellent advice there datbtrue

 

[papapumpsd]

Is it common practice for doodz to "group purchase" to get lower rates, or do "resellers" only do that? Just wondering what people to do get more reasonable prices.

 

[datBtrue]

Is it common practice for doodz to "group purchase" to get lower rates, or do "resellers" only do that? Just wondering what people to do get more reasonable prices.

I'm sorry Papa. I'm not a moderator here...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night...

...but I believe we need to police ourselves on this subject. Here is the reason.

I don't care what people want to pretend about research chemicals or peptides. In the US and a great many countries it IS illegal to consume these items period. There is no gray area. It is not legal. It is not legal. It is not legal.

Peptide synthesis especially longer chains and more difficult structures are not easy to synthesize at the highest purity levels. It takes time and there is waste which means the use of more raw materials. The machinery that is used in an industrial setting can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Keep that in mind because chaining amino acids together is not like creating a lot of other compounds.

 

[papapumpsd]

I'm sorry Papa. I'm not a moderator here...but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night...

...but I believe we need to police ourselves on this subject. Here is the reason.

I don't care what people want to pretend about research chemicals or peptides. In the US and a great many countries it IS illegal to consume these items period. There is no gray area. It is not legal. It is not legal. It is not legal.

Peptide synthesis especially longer chains and more difficult structures are not easy to synthesize at the highest purity levels. It takes time and there is waste which means the use of more raw materials. The machinery that is used in an industrial setting can run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Keep that in mind because chaining amino acids together is not like creating a lot of other compounds.

LOL, you slept at a Holiday Inn huh? Then you must know ALL!

Sorry if my question was unacceptable toward board rules...I'm usually all over that. I'm not sure if I crossed the line or not. Hmmm.

Thanks for the response Oh Father Of Peptides! I hear you on the expensive machinery and raw material waste. I will continue to do my own research as this is interesting.

Ok Dat Man, I have been wondering...what is your background? You seem awfully intelligent on this Peptide stuff. You a scientist or a intense bookwork w/Peptides??!!!! LOL, cheers u P.I.M.P.!!! :thumbsup::lol:

-Papa!-

 

[pumbertot]

Is it common practice for doodz to "group purchase" to get lower rates, or do "resellers" only do that? Just wondering what people to do get more reasonable prices.

it is amongst people i know. not to say anythimg against Dat's answer, one of the few people i have a lot of respect for on here(not that my respect counts for much ).

but yes like i had said as long as you are prepared to take the steps to be able to trust your Asian source you can obtain very good products at great prices. and you dont necessarily have to make direct payment to a lab or have them send you peptides labelled correctly. there is no need for anyone to know who you paid or what you received and I will not elaborate on that.

Id guess Dat is degree level graduate who does a lot of reading/researching. correct?

 

[pumbertot]

My background?

Its been so long since I've been in school I've almost forgotten where I started.

B.S. - Finance
Masters - Economics
Doctorate in Law

I am a principal in a private int'l financial concern.

As for being "knowledgeable" on this peptide stuff...I didn't want to be. I hoped to find accurate information available to read in summary format. But like most things in life IF you want to fully understand something you have to go to the source material and build up your knowledge from the ground up.

I've done that sort of thing all of my life...it means in areas that are important to me at any given point in time noone has power over me because I never have to fully rely on predigested notions that pass for fact.

the education figures precisely. yes i feel the same way about the knowledge we need in this 'game'. i just no longer have as much time to spend on education, which is why its good to have guys like you and grunt to lean on.

 

[Mach .78]

I second what pumbertot just said.

 

[papapumpsd]

My background?

Its been so long since I've been in school I've almost forgotten where I started.

B.S. - Finance
Masters - Economics
Doctorate in Law

I am a principal in a private int'l financial concern.

Wow, how worthless do I feel now? LOL. I have always wanted a doctorate......I love to "specialize" and that certainly gives you a specialty.

You're a "principle" in a private int'l financial concern? Venture capital are you implying or are you keeping it ambiguous?

And you're in Britain? They have the Ultima GTR I think.(? ) Britain has some killer rides!!!!

:head:

 

[pumbertot]

did papa get banned for this thread??????

 

[datBtrue]

did papa get banned for this thread??????

Nope. He got banned for attempting to sell the prohormone Superdrol on this site in the auction section.

MOD EDIT: He's out of the penalty box.