[torture]

Hi to everyone. My first post here.
Question: Been working ou for 11 years, have never used anything but supplements. My natural potential is used. Which will be better for a start- IGF, or AAS? My thinking is igf, because after it there will be more receptors for AAS, right?
One more thing- steroids are legal in my country

[papapumpsd]

Originally Posted by torture

Hi to everyone. My first post here.
Question: Been working ou for 11 years, have never used anything but supplements. My natural potential is used. Which will be better for a start- IGF, or AAS? My thinking is igf, because after it there will be more receptors for AAS, right?
One more thing- steroids are legal in my country

Wow, could I go on for days with this question. You ask whether IGF-1 or AAS should come 1st. Well, are you asking which will result in better "gains" or which will be better suited for a 1st-time "pinner"? Lots of other scenarios here.

The assumption will be that you are asking which of the two should be used 1st to yield the best return on injection ;D

Logic: IGF-1 leads to more new muscle cells (not a whole lot of size here). AAS typically lead to no new muscle cells, but a dramatic increase in the muscle cells' SIZE.

Hmmm.....chicken or the egg? What is your goal? Bigger muscles or more muscles? Are you in it for the short-term or long-term? Are you willing to use IGF-1 and AAS over a period of time so they work synergystically? yadda yadda.

In my opinion, I'd use IGF-1 to generate new muscle cells, then use AAS to blow them up. Wanna get fancy-shmancy? Throw in PEG-MFG to keep your stem cell pool full..that pool from which new muscle cells are derived from. -that's a whole other topic, sorry-

-Papa!-

[Bobaslaw]

Originally Posted by torture

Hi to everyone. My first post here.
Question: Been working ou for 11 years, have never used anything but supplements. My natural potential is used. Which will be better for a start- IGF, or AAS? My thinking is igf, because after it there will be more receptors for AAS, right?
One more thing- steroids are legal in my country

IGF-1's method of action has nothing to do with upregulating androgen receptors as you allude in your posting.

IGF will ideally agonise IGF-1 receptors, causing proliferation/differentiation of muscle stem cells and eventually (hopefully) some degree of muscular hyperplasia (fusion of stem cells). Hyperplasia is the creation of completely new muscle fibers as opposed to hypertrophy which is the enlagement of existing muscle fibers.

The proposition of hyperplasia due to IGF-1 is very subtle and takes many cycles at most to achieve this possibility. The subtlty lies in the creation of new immature muscle fibers that are quite underdeveloped and need time to mature and grow, not unlike the existing muscle fibers we strive to put into a state of maximal hypertrophy. With the creation of these new fibers (after some time of IGF-1 use) there will be a benefit of using AAS to speed up their maturation and rate of hypertrophy.

Other than hyperplasia with IGF, we also benefit from some other actions as well. IGF-1 agonises insulin receptors to a lesser degree than insulin, but thus it is also responsible for glucose/amino shuttling & nutrition partitioning effects which are beneficial to muscle growth in and of itself to some degree.

So, for hyperplasia the most logical reasoning is to already have some degree of hyperplasia for there to be a benefit of AAS taking action on these newly created fibers. Thus, running a first cycle of IGF with AAS concurrently will probably not create this environment as IGF needs much more time and numerous cycles. However, the nurtient partitioning and glucose shuttling effects can definitely be of benefit during cycle or stand alone.
Honestly, the question of whether to run IGF first or run AAS first or both may only be questionable IF and only if you are planning on using IGF-1 only one time and never again. This is not realistic, and if you plan on using IGF-1 you better be preparred to run it for quite a few cycles to hope for any real benefits. Thus, you can run it at any point. It will benefit you in cycle and in PCT to help hold onto gains. Personally I love it in PCT as this is a time when IGF-1 levels are quite low.
If you run a shor cycle of 4 weeks with an PH, you could follow up with IGF in PCT and then rely on the next PH cycle for stimulating the growth of the possible new fibers.
If you run a long cycle (10-12 weeks), you could ideally run IGF at the beginning of the cycle with equal time off, then in PCT.
So you see there are many ways to do this depending on the immediate benefits you want, however, the constant is that you will repeat these cycles to in in such a way that new fibers will mature with following AAS or PH cycles.

Hope this helps.

Take Care.

[Bobaslaw]

Papa, damn your quick draw trigger finger happy morning response!! Igf-1 must be making your spider senses tingle, eh?

[papapumpsd]

Originally Posted by Bobaslaw

IGF-1's method of action has nothing to do with upregulating androgen receptors as you allude in your posting.

IGF will ideally agonise IGF-1 receptors, causing proliferation/differentiation of muscle stem cells and eventually (hopefully) some degree of muscular hyperplasia (fusion of stem cells). Hyperplasia is the creation of completely new muscle fibers as opposed to hypertrophy which is the enlagement of existing muscle fibers.

The proposition of hyperplasia due to IGF-1 is very subtle and takes many cycles at most to achieve this possibility. The subtlty lies in the creation of new immature muscle fibers that are quite underdeveloped and need time to mature and grow, not unlike the existing muscle fibers we strive to put into a state of maximal hypertrophy. With the creation of these new fibers (after some time of IGF-1 use) there will be a benefit of using AAS to speed up their maturation and rate of hypertrophy.

Other than hyperplasia with IGF, we also benefit from some other actions as well. IGF-1 agonises insulin receptors to a lesser degree than insulin, but thus it is also responsible for glucose/amino shuttling & nutrition partitioning effects which are beneficial to muscle growth in and of itself to some degree.

So, for hyperplasia the most logical reasoning is to already have some degree of hyperplasia for there to be a benefit of AAS taking action on these newly created fibers. Thus, running a first cycle of IGF with AAS concurrently will probably not create this environment as IGF needs much more time and numerous cycles. However, the nurtient partitioning and glucose shuttling effects can definitely be of benefit during cycle or stand alone.
Honestly, the question of whether to run IGF first or run AAS first or both may only be questionable IF and only if you are planning on using IGF-1 only one time and never again. This is not realistic, and if you plan on using IGF-1 you better be preparred to run it for quite a few cycles to hope for any real benefits. Thus, you can run it at any point. It will benefit you in cycle and in PCT to help hold onto gains. Personally I love it in PCT as this is a time when IGF-1 levels are quite low.
If you run a shor cycle of 4 weeks with an PH, you could follow up with IGF in PCT and then rely on the next PH cycle for stimulating the growth of the possible new fibers.
If you run a long cycle (10-12 weeks), you could ideally run IGF at the beginning of the cycle with equal time off, then in PCT.
So you see there are many ways to do this depending on the immediate benefits you want, however, the constant is that you will repeat these cycles to in in such a way that new fibers will mature with following AAS or PH cycles.

Hope this helps.

Take Care.

Ok, what this guy said...ya, spot on. A much more elaborate, intelligent answer than my "morning quickie" above. HE HE!

[torture]

Thanks for the great info.
My logic for the new receptors was that maybe after running several cycles of IGF for a year there will be more fibres-cells-nucleii, therefore more receptors.
Probably will start with igf and test and again igf in the pct.
Saying that there is the need for multiple cycles, is ther any data whether long term use of igf is expected to have side effects, or suppressed endogenous production?

[Distilled Water]

At 6'2" 170lbs.....I highly doubt you have reached your potential with all do respect.

[torture]

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

At 6'2" 170lbs.....I highly doubt you have reached your potential with all do respect.

Started out very skiny- 110lbs. Bad genetics. But I gained more than 70lbs. Have lost about 12, because of work, but will recover for couple of months and then I start seriously.

[Distilled Water]

Originally Posted by torture

Started out very skiny- 110lbs. Bad genetics. But I gained more than 70lbs. Have lost about 12, because of work, but will recover for couple of months and then I start seriously.

I know its a biotch but I doubt your very close to your genetic potential. I mean Im only 5'9" and about 15-20lbs heavier and Im probably closing in on my potential but I dont think Im there. I just think that you using now wont give you as much as if you did so when you really needed it. Say at like 200lbs.

I am by no means telling you what to do, just offering my advice.

[SOLARUS]

Originally Posted by Distilled Water

I know its a biotch but I doubt your very close to your genetic potential. I mean Im only 5'9" and about 15-20lbs heavier and Im probably closing in on my potential but I dont think Im there. I just think that you using now wont give you as much as if you did so when you really needed it. Say at like 200lbs.

I am by no means telling you what to do, just offering my advice.

agree 100%

get REALLY familiar with chicken, tuna, brown rice and oats (etc etc) until about 200lbs, then ask this same question.