pGH (specifically the GABOB) and cortisol?!

  1. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    pGH (specifically the GABOB) and cortisol?!


    GABOB has been shown to elevate not only HGH, but prolactin and cortisol....this cant be beneficial..Others studies conclude that it 'improves' amounts of HGH, prolactin, and cortisol...whatever that means.

    GABOB is one of the ingredients in pGH

  2. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Some people say that gh gives them prolactin related-sides. I would use 7-Keto DHEA and perhaps melatonan at night. That should control the cortisol.

    Then perhaps add vit B-6 to address prolactin.

    bb
  3. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    GABOB has been shown to elevate not only HGH, but prolactin and cortisol....this cant be beneficial..Others studies conclude that it 'improves' amounts of HGH, prolactin, and cortisol...whatever that means.

    GABOB is one of the ingredients in pGH
    virtually every GH-related product will cause this, including GH. check the pubmed studies. you can use high-dose B6 to help with prolactin, but the cortisol bump will be harder to manage. i honestly doubt any OTC supplement will be able to abate it - the two pathways seem linked (GH and cortisol) although i'm not clear on the specifics.

    i retain lots of water on GH, and many others do too...pretty much a sure sign of cortisol/corticosteroid action, in the absence of other water-related factors (salt increase, estrogen, etc)...
    •   
       

  4. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    good ideas. I use p-5-p as a safer alternative to high doses of B6, and I usually use Relora for cortisol control and (retain 2 in pct).
  5. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    I am a fan of DHEA and I believe there is probably additional benefits to 7-Keto beyond cortisol control. But I think whatever potential problems you might have are easily controllable.

    Keep us posted.

    bb
  6. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    I am a fan of DHEA and I believe there is probably additional benefits to 7-Keto beyond cortisol control. But I think whatever potential problems you might have are easily controllable.

    Keep us posted.

    bb
    I know that retain-2 should not be run indefinitely, HOWEVER i believe that a combination of Relora, 7-keto DHEA/ DHEA and lots of Vit.c CAN be run all year. I would resort to something like Retain 2 for after suppressive cycle when cortisol would likely skyrocket.

    could 7-keto be used with DHEA? or should one or the other be used
  7. Board Moderator
    Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,843
    Rep Power
    768803
    Level
    95
    Lv. Percent
    23.22%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity RoyaltyActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting Pro

    Eric from primordial performance seems to think that phosphatylserine is the best cortisol support you can get
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  8. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Eric from primordial performance seems to think that phosphatylserine is the best cortisol support you can get
    except in the doses needed it=$$$$$$$$$$$$$ up the wazooo
  9. Board Moderator
    Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,843
    Rep Power
    768803
    Level
    95
    Lv. Percent
    23.22%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity RoyaltyActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting Pro

    he has said thru his supplier I think it was 800mg of active a day for $50 a month kind of range
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  10. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    he has said thru his supplier I think it was 800mg of active a day for $50 a month kind of range
    yea thats not ridiculous. Wish I knew his supplier.
  11. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    I dont know why you couldnt run 7-keto w/regular DHEA

    bb
  12. New Member
    comacho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    388
    Rep Power
    279
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    56.93%

    check out the debate on supplement section regarding 11beta hydoxysteroid dehydrogenase

    i think the water bloat is from messing with that enzyme either 11bHSD1 or 11bHSD2 in kidneys, kinda like how if you take lots of licorice you get water retention because mineralcorticoids get over abundant

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineralcorticoid

    "Aldosterone and cortisol have similar affinity for the mineralocorticoid receptor however, glucocorticoids circulate at roughly 100 times the level of mineralocorticoids. An enzyme exists in mineralocorticoid target tissues to prevent overstimulation by glucocorticoids. This enzyme, 11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type II (Protein:HSD11B2), catalyzes the deactivation of glucocorticoids to 11-dehydro metabolites. Licorice is known to be an inhibitor of this enzyme and chronic consumption can result in a condition known as pseudohyperaldosteronism." from that link

    GH reduces cortisol through inhibiting 11bHSD1 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ractPlusDrugs1

    another
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ubmed_RVDocSum

    i actually dont hear alot of people suffereing from prolactin sides and water retention and fat from GH use, ive always heard about fat loss and all the good stuff

    so what solarus is saying is news to me. that kinda sucks, i was looking for sides free alternatives to androgens.

    however i haven't searched pubmed for GH and prolactin yet, nor have i seen any studies where they looked at GH and 11bHSD2 in other organs (kidneys).




    oh man not this enzyme discussion again.....
  13. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by comacho View Post
    i actually dont hear alot of people suffereing from prolactin sides and water retention and fat from GH use, ive always heard about fat loss and all the good stuff

    so what solarus is saying is news to me. that kinda sucks, i was looking for sides free alternatives to androgens.

    however i haven't searched pubmed for GH and prolactin yet, nor have i seen any studies where they looked at GH and 11bHSD2 in other organs (kidneys)......
    water retention on GH is actually really common. check on more "conventional" boards, you'll see it reported very often.
  14. New Member
    comacho's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    388
    Rep Power
    279
    Level
    16
    Lv. Percent
    56.93%

    Solarus, i checked out outlaw, intersting stuff, so it has to be mineralcorticoids related sides since there is no other hormones involved (test to estro etc)

    pudzian, you are on pGH currently aren't you? how do you like it so far? any sides? any gains?
  15. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by comacho View Post
    so what solarus is saying is news to me. that kinda sucks, i was looking for sides free alternatives to androgens.
    for what it's worth, i think IGF-LR3 is just that. it aint anadrol, but it's got virtually nil drawbacks, if you can afford it. i sure wish there was a precursor/potentiator to IGF like there are so many to GH (arginine, gaba, ghb, baclofen, clonidine, etc etc)...
  16. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    for what it's worth, i think IGF-LR3 is just that. it aint anadrol, but it's got virtually nil drawbacks, if you can afford it. i sure wish there was a precursor/potentiator to IGF like there are so many to GH (arginine, gaba, ghb, baclofen, clonidine, etc etc)...
    GH is a precursor to IGF-1 in the sense that increased GH usually leads to increased IGF-1

    and no I am not currently on pGH. I start once I fine tune my diet. So 1 or 2 weeks. I have used it before, and DID notice water retention. however, upon cessation the water came off and I was DEFINITELY leaner.
  17. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    GH is a precursor to IGF-1 in the sense that increased GH usually leads to increased IGF-1
    i know. perhaps you missed my point.

    GH increases (whether exogenous or otherwise) tend to bring with them undesirable ancillary effects....forearm pain, uneasy sleep (not everyone), water retention...aside from the muscular effects that are likely mediated by IGF-1...what i was getting at was it would be nice to be able to isolate the IGF-1 effects, without the other stuff.
  18. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    i know. perhaps you missed my point.

    GH increases (whether exogenous or otherwise) tend to bring with them undesirable ancillary effects....forearm pain, uneasy sleep (not everyone), water retention...aside from the muscular effects that are likely mediated by IGF-1...what i was getting at was it would be nice to be able to isolate the IGF-1 effects, without the other stuff.
    yea, but in the long run GH seems to work better than just IGF-1. (even if just looking at it from a muslce-gain standpoint) From what I have seen, read etc
  19. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    yea, but in the long run GH seems to work better than just IGF-1. (even if just looking at it from a muslce-gain standpoint) From what I have seen, read etc
    Agreed 100%. You can run a mg of igf a week and you wont see your skin smoothen & soften as the wrinkles run away and you look 5-10yrs younger. I have heard of guys having their gray hair darken on gh. GH also supports natural test production. Improves bone density. Fat loss. Etc. Does a lot that igf doesnt do.

    bb
  20. Board Moderator
    Never enough
    EasyEJL's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Age
    46
    Posts
    31,843
    Rep Power
    768803
    Level
    95
    Lv. Percent
    23.22%
    Achievements Activity VeteranActivity RoyaltyActivity ProActivity AuthorityPosting Pro

    time for me to buy some GH then
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
  21. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Agreed 100%. You can run a mg of igf a week and you wont see your skin smoothen & soften as the wrinkles run away and you look 5-10yrs younger. I have heard of guys having their gray hair darken on gh. GH also supports natural test production. Improves bone density. Fat loss. Etc. Does a lot that igf doesnt do.

    bb
    which is a great reason to keep it highly elevated with the use of secretagogues * (spelling)....unless one can afford synthetic GH $$$$
  22. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    which is a great reason to keep it highly elevated with the use of secretagogues * (spelling)....unless one can afford synthetic GH $$$$
    Agreed.

    bb
  23. Professional Member
    Grunt76's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  272 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Age
    47
    Posts
    3,131
    Rep Power
    1784
    Level
    39
    Lv. Percent
    22.11%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Actually GABOB's action on cortisol should be beneficial since too low cortisol (as induced by high GH levels) can lead to tendonitis and such. Really low cortisol should be considered only in contest preparation.
  24. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt76 View Post
    Actually GABOB's action on cortisol should be beneficial since too low cortisol (as induced by high GH levels) can lead to tendonitis and such. Really low cortisol should be considered only in contest preparation.
    good point.

    Speaking to cortisol...I would like to hear more about phosphotydylserine....maybe we could get primordial over here to comment
  25. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Agreed 100%. You can run a mg of igf a week and you wont see your skin smoothen & soften as the wrinkles run away and you look 5-10yrs younger. I have heard of guys having their gray hair darken on gh. GH also supports natural test production. Improves bone density. Fat loss. Etc. Does a lot that igf doesnt do.

    bb
    no offense, but if i want an opinion about automotive engineering, i dont ask a car salesman.

    i respect your viewpoint, bb, but i take all of your comments with a grain of salt, given your professional position.

    not that many guys dont love GH...they do...but it's far from perfect. i can't do it long-term because i like to be lean and hard whenever humanly possible...plus i retain gobs of water on GH and my forearms just ache 24/7. obviously it's working, but i cant handle the sides.
  26. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Solarus,

    For one, I dont know what you mean by my 'professional position'? I'm a law school student. I am a rep for a supplement company (that is not a sponsor here so I will leave the name out). However I certainly dont sell HGH and if you are implying that then you need to check your sources of information.

    But whatever you might think of me, I stand by my statement on hgh. Yes I understand there is water retention (which quickly goes away when a person comes off). HGH made my hands constantly numb. I'm a big boy I can handle the sides. I never said hgh is perfect. All I'm saying is that the plethora of benefits that HGH offers far outweighs igf-1, lr3 or any other singular peptide.

    Certainly I believe if someone ran a combination of igf-1 lr3, pegMGF, hexarelin, ghrp6, & 176 gh frag at high dosages for at least 4-5 months they would obtain a similar range of benefits (vascularity, fat loss, skin improvements, etc). However I am simply stating that in a 1 on 1 comparison, hgh beats out any other peptide.
    bb
  27. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    no offense, but if i want an opinion about automotive engineering, i dont ask a car salesman.

    i respect your viewpoint, bb, but i take all of your comments with a grain of salt, given your professional position.

    not that many guys dont love GH...they do...but it's far from perfect. i can't do it long-term because i like to be lean and hard whenever humanly possible...plus i retain gobs of water on GH and my forearms just ache 24/7. obviously it's working, but i cant handle the sides.
    Also I dont understand why you are making this personal? I dont even know you. I was simply taking part in the hijacking of this thread (since I was discussing hgh and the original topic was pGH). Further I have lots of personal experience with peptides. Just because I haven't been on this board for years doesnt mean I havent been around the block. So can we leave the personal attacks out?

    bb
  28. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Solarus,

    For one, I dont know what you mean by my 'professional position'? I'm a law school student. I am a rep for a supplement company (that is not a sponsor here so I will leave the name out). However I certainly dont sell HGH and if you are implying that then you need to check your sources of information.

    But whatever you might think of me, I stand by my statement on hgh. Yes I understand there is water retention (which quickly goes away when a person comes off). HGH made my hands constantly numb. I'm a big boy I can handle the sides. I never said hgh is perfect. All I'm saying is that the plethora of benefits that HGH offers far outweighs igf-1, lr3 or any other singular peptide.

    Certainly I believe if someone ran a combination of igf-1 lr3, pegMGF, hexarelin, ghrp6, & 176 gh frag at high dosages for at least 4-5 months they would obtain a similar range of benefits (vascularity, fat loss, skin improvements, etc). However I am simply stating that in a 1 on 1 comparison, hgh beats out any other peptide.
    bb


    and if one were to run such a combination....they might as well fork out for HGH....I mean 1 compound vs a bunch of newer compounds is safer anyway...who really knows wtf else those single peptides can do in combination or in the long run.
  29. New Member
    babyblu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    474
    Rep Power
    335
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    44.84%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    and if one were to run such a combination....they might as well fork out for HGH....I mean 1 compound vs a bunch of newer compounds is safer anyway...who really knows wtf else those single peptides can do in combination or in the long run.
    I agree. I do like the newer peptides and hope to see more peptides brought to market that will be more efficient, with less side effects, etc. However you have to remember is that the side effects and long-term effects of HGH are well-documented because tons of research studies have been conducted on it. Not so much with a lot of other peptides.

    bb
  30. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    I agree. I do like the newer peptides and hope to see more peptides brought to market that will be more efficient, with less side effects, etc. However you have to remember is that the side effects and long-term effects of HGH are well-documented because tons of research studies have been conducted on it. Not so much with a lot of other peptides.

    bb
    yea thats exactly right. especially considering how framiliar the body is with HGH
  31. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblu View Post
    Also I dont understand why you are making this personal? I dont even know you. I was simply taking part in the hijacking of this thread (since I was discussing hgh and the original topic was pGH). Further I have lots of personal experience with peptides. Just because I haven't been on this board for years doesnt mean I havent been around the block. So can we leave the personal attacks out?

    bb
    it isnt personal at all.

    it's possible that i have you confused with someone else....but i really dont think so. there's plenty of anonymity in a board name, so there's no way to know for sure....listen, i wont go into any more details on this matter, because this isnt the sort of board where sources are called out or even mentioned.

    my final thought: i believe that you truly like HGH, and i guess in the context of this thread, that's all that really matters. even if you did have a professional bias, it wouldnt really matter because there are plenty of other guys out there who share your viewpoint.
  32. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    i really dont understand the need for any conflict here
  33. New Member
    SOLARUS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    360
    Rep Power
    262
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    63.09%

    Quote Originally Posted by pudzian2 View Post
    i really dont understand the need for any conflict here
    is there a conflict?
  34. Banned
    pudzian2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,476
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    28
    Lv. Percent
    85.7%
    Achievements Posting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLARUS View Post
    is there a conflict?
    ....well something was goin on between you and babyblu. hopefully it is over
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. X-dream vs. GABOB
    By Matt Skiba in forum Supplements
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 12-03-2009, 12:04 PM
  2. GABOB vs. other gaba analogues
    By TheLeper in forum Celtic Labs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 05-12-2009, 10:25 AM
  3. tyric or gabob experiences
    By primal1 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-04-2008, 10:41 PM
  4. Gabob
    By EasyEJL in forum Supplements
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-01-2007, 02:57 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in