pGH (specifically the GABOB) and cortisol?!
- 02-24-2008, 09:07 PM
- 02-25-2008, 10:02 AM
Some people say that gh gives them prolactin related-sides. I would use 7-Keto DHEA and perhaps melatonan at night. That should control the cortisol.
Then perhaps add vit B-6 to address prolactin.
02-25-2008, 10:24 AM
i retain lots of water on GH, and many others do too...pretty much a sure sign of cortisol/corticosteroid action, in the absence of other water-related factors (salt increase, estrogen, etc)...
02-25-2008, 10:41 AM
good ideas. I use p-5-p as a safer alternative to high doses of B6, and I usually use Relora for cortisol control and (retain 2 in pct).
02-25-2008, 12:11 PM
I am a fan of DHEA and I believe there is probably additional benefits to 7-Keto beyond cortisol control. But I think whatever potential problems you might have are easily controllable.
Keep us posted.
02-25-2008, 12:50 PM
could 7-keto be used with DHEA? or should one or the other be used
02-25-2008, 02:38 PM
Eric from primordial performance seems to think that phosphatylserine is the best cortisol support you can get
02-25-2008, 04:46 PM
02-25-2008, 04:52 PM
02-25-2008, 05:03 PM
02-25-2008, 06:11 PM
02-25-2008, 08:57 PM
check out the debate on supplement section regarding 11beta hydoxysteroid dehydrogenase
i think the water bloat is from messing with that enzyme either 11bHSD1 or 11bHSD2 in kidneys, kinda like how if you take lots of licorice you get water retention because mineralcorticoids get over abundant
"Aldosterone and cortisol have similar affinity for the mineralocorticoid receptor however, glucocorticoids circulate at roughly 100 times the level of mineralocorticoids. An enzyme exists in mineralocorticoid target tissues to prevent overstimulation by glucocorticoids. This enzyme, 11-beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type II (Protein:HSD11B2), catalyzes the deactivation of glucocorticoids to 11-dehydro metabolites. Licorice is known to be an inhibitor of this enzyme and chronic consumption can result in a condition known as pseudohyperaldosteronism." from that link
GH reduces cortisol through inhibiting 11bHSD1 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...ractPlusDrugs1
i actually dont hear alot of people suffereing from prolactin sides and water retention and fat from GH use, ive always heard about fat loss and all the good stuff
so what solarus is saying is news to me. that kinda sucks, i was looking for sides free alternatives to androgens.
however i haven't searched pubmed for GH and prolactin yet, nor have i seen any studies where they looked at GH and 11bHSD2 in other organs (kidneys).
oh man not this enzyme discussion again.....
02-25-2008, 09:11 PM
02-25-2008, 10:00 PM
Solarus, i checked out outlaw, intersting stuff, so it has to be mineralcorticoids related sides since there is no other hormones involved (test to estro etc)
pudzian, you are on pGH currently aren't you? how do you like it so far? any sides? any gains?
02-25-2008, 11:51 PM
02-26-2008, 12:08 PM
and no I am not currently on pGH. I start once I fine tune my diet. So 1 or 2 weeks. I have used it before, and DID notice water retention. however, upon cessation the water came off and I was DEFINITELY leaner.
02-26-2008, 09:49 PM
GH increases (whether exogenous or otherwise) tend to bring with them undesirable ancillary effects....forearm pain, uneasy sleep (not everyone), water retention...aside from the muscular effects that are likely mediated by IGF-1...what i was getting at was it would be nice to be able to isolate the IGF-1 effects, without the other stuff.
02-26-2008, 10:32 PM
02-26-2008, 11:35 PM
02-27-2008, 06:41 AM
02-27-2008, 10:37 AM
02-27-2008, 10:45 AM
02-27-2008, 09:07 PM
Actually GABOB's action on cortisol should be beneficial since too low cortisol (as induced by high GH levels) can lead to tendonitis and such. Really low cortisol should be considered only in contest preparation.
02-27-2008, 09:56 PM
02-28-2008, 12:22 AM
i respect your viewpoint, bb, but i take all of your comments with a grain of salt, given your professional position.
not that many guys dont love GH...they do...but it's far from perfect. i can't do it long-term because i like to be lean and hard whenever humanly possible...plus i retain gobs of water on GH and my forearms just ache 24/7. obviously it's working, but i cant handle the sides.
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