injecting igf-1 into abs?
- 01-23-2008, 07:38 PM
- 01-23-2008, 08:47 PM
- 01-23-2008, 10:49 PM
well it all goes back to the argument of spot specific growth and whether or not PW shots really do directly effect the muscle worked. There are plenty of arguments both ways I personally have done both ways and saw no difference but to each his own. Either way I probably wouldn't take the chance just in case
01-23-2008, 11:03 PM
01-23-2008, 11:05 PM
01-23-2008, 11:10 PM
Then try it and let us know if you guts grow or your abs grow.
“Besides, it is a disgrace to grow old through sheer carelessness before seeing what manner of man you may become by developing your bodily strength and beauty to their highest limit.”
01-24-2008, 01:12 AM
01-24-2008, 08:11 AM
01-24-2008, 02:45 PM
01-24-2008, 06:36 PM
I was one of the first few humans to use IGF and I've seen literally hundreds of users and honestly they've noticed only temporary injection site improvement, most likely from the solvents irritating the tissues. All reported no intestinal growth, and honestly after all this time and people there is nothing more than theoretical BS and fools repeating it when it comes to it causing GH gut from IGF. That comes from super heavy lifting and insane food quantities combined with slin as well as IGF or GH. Not to mention, since IGF's effects are systemic, why would you say that abdominal injections would cause intestinal growth, as if delt injects wouldn't? That's repeating crap write-ups by theorists who need to stop writing and start lifting. I'm sure that since we've studied it A LOT together, Jminis would agree.
01-24-2008, 06:46 PM
Yea I think it would be great to do subq so that it gets even amounts every where. Looks like getting in the blood would be better and have it circulate it threw out the whole body.
01-24-2008, 08:37 PM
01-24-2008, 09:50 PM
I mean heck if its only going to speed it up by a small % than why go threw the pain when SubQ is zero pain compared to the some pain or lot of pain you do with IM.
01-24-2008, 11:34 PM
01-25-2008, 11:02 AM
I agree w/u N4cer. In fact I believe that human prescription igf products are indeed injected subQ. The only issue I have is the AA, and whether injecting shallowly under the skin can cause any problems. I 'heard' one guy who injected subQ and the AA ate thru his skin, but of course thats bromythology & no telling even if true if the guy diluted w/BW or sterile water.
01-25-2008, 11:41 AM
01-25-2008, 12:49 PM
01-25-2008, 01:31 PM
BA has way more sting. It's straight alcohol. Melted the skin right between his fingers. I'll tell you more some day.
01-25-2008, 07:51 PM
01-26-2008, 02:01 PM
This thread is good. I agree with N4cer. You have to think about how many things the pros use to get that big. And with heavy squats and deads of course itll grow their gut more. I see it even when i used to do deads religiously, my gut would firm up and bulge.
I think that this is good becasue most of the time people do tend to latch onto one theory and run with it. The only way to do it is research for yourself guys.
01-26-2008, 03:53 PM
All in all good info in here. Sam bottom line is if you want to try it go ahead but myself, n4cer, and many others don't see the point being IGF works systematically. As I said some will argue the point, but I don't have time to argue anymore with online tough guy guru's. I base my knowledge and opinions from two sources, 90% my personal experience 10% reading.
05-23-2008, 10:33 AM
ok, i decided to try this sub q. I can say it seems to reduce fat around my waist without calorie restriction. I'm using 40-50 mcg. 4-5 x week. I can tell you for certain this is what it is, as i started noticing the change after the second shot. I even went back to im for a couple, and there was no noticeable change in bf.
05-25-2008, 12:25 PM
So i thought i remember reading in a sticky here that most low dose is ok subQ. I think 50mcgs and lower it was.
The only reason most theories say chance of intestinal growth is casue most receptors are in the intestine.
I was thinking of starting long term use of it at a small 40mcgs. I have to say, after reading around a bit, I think it is mental or has no difference to go IM or SubQ with this. Im still kind of new to peptides though and learning.
05-25-2008, 03:29 PM
Heck at low dosage it should be fine. I am medium dosaging pegmgf and I do sub q and have no problems. I still have not seen difference much but I have only been using it for 5 weeks so far. I have to be on it for at least a good 8-10 weeks to notice any thing.
05-26-2008, 09:59 PM
Just for the record, injecting IGF-1 into the abs is not synonymous with injecting IGF-1 sub-q.
We need to distinguish this difference as abs are abdominals and that would be IM. Sub-q hs nothing to do with abs, Other than the fact that is the most common sub-q location (between the abdominals and skin). Sub-q can be done under the skin in many places in the body...
That being said, another note on dosage and delivery type (sub-q/IM).
If you are primarily looking for muscle cell agonism by IGF, IM makes more sense. Why? Well, because if you weigh 200lbs and want to maximally agonise your bicep (or abs or whatever muscle group) and inject 50mcg of IGF-1 sub-q, you have just injected 50mcg per 200lbs of body weight (0.25 mcg/lb). Without getting into complex science, I will guestimate that each lb of muscle will get an amount of IGF-1 closer to .025mcg/lb than the same 50mcg dose IM.
With IM the local muscle group receptor saturation will be exposed to the maximum amount of the same IGF dose before the rest goes sytemic. I'm sure it is quite obvious you have given the particular muscle group a greater exposure to the same dose of IGF-1 this way even if the remainder of IGF-1 ends up systemic.
Now, I have no real world proof of what systemic doses/duration one can be exposed to before gut growth is a concern.
I do know many claim to have decent fat loss with IGF-1 use. The mechanisms by which IGF-1 reduces lipogenesis in adipose tissue is not fully understood, however this study does draw some conclusions that IGF does not directly agonise adiposites as they do not have functional Type I IGF-1 receptors. The belief is that the actual mechanism lies in the decrease of insulin levels in the body from exogenous IGF-1. Given this it seems unlikely that sub-q IGF-1 for local fat burning is necessary as IM would affect this proposed method of action just the same as sub-q. This is however just another drawn conclusion from "another" study...
Who knows, we may possibly find out the method of action may be the weaker binding of IGF-1 to the IR (insulin receptor) in adipose tissue, occupying the receptor and keeping it from binding with insulin...
Anyhow, sorry for the rambling.. Just throwing out related interesting stuff (at least to me)
IGF-I is believed to mediate some of the effects of GH via endocrine and paracrine mechanisms (14, 17, 40). However, direct effects of IGF-I in the liver and adipose tissue are unlikely, because these tissues lack functional type I IGF receptors (18, 29). IGF-I inhibits both GH (17, 18, 29) and insulin secretion (18, 27, 29, 36), further indicating an intimate relation between these hormones in the regulation of growth and metabolism.
Our results suggest that IGF-I reduces body fat mass via an inhibition of the lipogenic capacity of adipocytes. IGF-I probably reduces lipogenesis in adipose tissue via inhibition of insulin secretion. Moreover, an increased catecholamine-inducible lipolysis may also contribute to reduced body fat mass. In view of the present results and previous reports, it seems appropriate to conclude that IGF-I plays an important role in the regulation of intermediary metabolism, serving as a modulator of the effects of GH and insulin in this regulation. The potential of IGF-I for treatment of type II diabetes is further substantiated in this study by the findings of a decreased lipogenesis in adipose tissue and an insulin-like effect in skeletal muscle.
05-26-2008, 10:06 PM
But if i may ask something simple....
So implying the IM injection will be more effective toward amount:recetor ratio as you mentioned using the bicep as an example.
Also, as you said, a skin flap is all you need. So would shooting SubQ quad area be more effective SubQ stomach?
It seems that is where most peoples fear is in the SubQ stomach area is that it is so close to the intestines.
But in theory, yours it would seem or just mine, SubQ quad, still disperses alot, BUT less chance of having as large of an effect on the instestine.
I hope what i said makes sense.
05-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Thats like saying if you are on a freeway, the other side (opposite lane of traffic) is closer to get to, when in fact you would need to travel down the freeway for a while get off the off ramp, traverse the surface streets, then get on the onramp for the opposite direction, and finally get to the point on the freeway you were just across from at the beginning of this statement...
Do you see the correlation? Subq anywhere in the body needs to go systemic and use the blood vessels (circulatory network)to get to the rest of the body. Sub q in the ab area is not close to the intestinse via the circulatory system network. There is no BV that goes from the subq region of the abs directly into the intestines (through the abdominal wall, or whatever is imagined)...
Good question, as many have had this misconception.
05-26-2008, 10:40 PM
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