Igf-1 Lr3 Dosing Protocol Post Your Opinon\experience
- 12-25-2007, 01:50 AM
- 12-25-2007, 09:02 PM
igf is meant to be used post workout no more than 3x a week. you should not expect to gain immediate muscle mass off igf. i read so many threads where people claim igf did nothing for them in their 4 week cycle. this is not true as it takes time for the cells you created to mature. all in all i feel it takes 6-9 months of proper eating and training for one to realize igf's full potential. the longer you are on the juice the faster easier it is for this to take place.
i came to this conclusion because after a cycle i used to drop down to about 220-224 after being around 235 "on". i did a igf lr3 cycle ( 4 weeker 40 mcg bi laterally on body part trained) and ran a long cycle which i got as high as 247. Now when i am off or cruising on low hrt doses i weigh around 230-233. i feel the igf is what add the permanent weight gain. i will know for sure as i plan to do this again soon.
12-26-2007, 04:40 PM
i typically use 20mcg PWO with a combination of EOD or E3D (i have only run 1mg so far total and i weigh about 180-190lbs) depending on my workout schedule that week, i definately get noticable effects from this, subtle but noticable, one thing i recenlty noticed is that i was forced to take about a month straight off from the gym where i was working 14+ hours a day and eating garbage, and surprisingly i kept my size much much better then i ever have before during gaps in my training. it just seems that after running igf my bodies base weight that it is comfortable with is higher since i usually drop weight quite rapidly, i also find it great in that i can eat almost whatever i want when on IGF and it doesn't seem to go to fat. this next IGF cycle i'm going to run it with GHRP6 then take a few weeks break and run it with tren/test. so should be awesome
also seems like you should be able to take igf here and there whenever you want, as opposed to steroids where you obviously cant just take a shot whenever you want.
12-26-2007, 07:51 PM
12-27-2007, 01:08 PM
yeah, thats why i only use 20-40mcg split up between 2 or four muscle groups, would rather go on the lower dose side with these experimental peptides.
i have been noticing lately that my sleep isn't as fulfilling/resting lately since i've been on IGF this time. i'm wondering if the IGF is suppressing my normal GH and messing with my sleep patterns, i'm still dreaming and all, it just seems like it takes later in my sleep to start dreaming (i wake up from dreams now after 7+ hours of sleep) and i dont feel very rested when i wake up. could be because i'm training harder now, but i thought it was interesting, i guess i'll find out when i throw some GHRP6 in the mix!
the stuff is great between cycles too, i hate that feeling that i'm "wasting my time" between cycles since progress goes back to normal, IGF helps deal with the mental ups and downs of cycles for me, even if i only pin twice a week at 20mcg it just makes it easier between cycles.
01-22-2008, 01:25 AM
01-22-2008, 07:35 AM
01-22-2008, 11:06 AM
01-22-2008, 07:41 PM
I think years ago Bobo felt he would get just as much out of 20mcg as 40mcg & said 20mcg would be his dosing scheme.
Dave Palumbo talks about 11mcg per day for 30 days w/ 2 weeks off then back on for 30days , off for 2 weeks and 30days on again.
The only downside is you will have to buy a box of 100 pins.
But seriously think about it...even 10mcg per day is going to more than double your normal IGF output. If you more than double your levels of IGF for 3 months it will have a consistent positive effect in building strength & some muscle or even preserving muscle on a diet.
People spend a lot of money on supplements just to get a small increase in IGF...they do heavy stretches under load, D.C. stretches etc. hoping to trigger a little more IGF release. So a vial of IGF-1 & a box of insulin pins is cost effective when you figure you will be able to maintain a higher level of IGF for a quarter of the year.
I've been using 10mcg IGF per day for the last 7 weeks. I've used small doses of Nettle Root (250mg taken 3 times per day) to slightly increase my free test. Plenty of BCCAs...but nothing hormonal. I've made very good gains in strength over that time (50+ pounds on my deadlift) and I've been lifting for 20+ years so there are no longer "easy" gains to be had.
So I give low dosing schemes
01-27-2008, 03:50 PM
I agree with DatBtrue. I think that less over a longer period of time is not only 'healthier', but considerably more efficient and will yield a better net result.
01-27-2008, 03:53 PM
btw. I think I am going to try the 20mcg EOD for about 4 weeks on 2 off and then continue from there. I may change the dosing regime If I feel necessary. I mean, I would rather use less IGF-1 (meaning not shooting a consistent excess and wasting money) over a longer period of time and be on a positive progress schedule.
not to mention I like IGF-1 for its connective tissue repair abilities, so having some extra IGF-1 floating around more consistently throughout the year would be better than the ups and downs of higher doses over shorter periods of time.
01-27-2008, 09:07 PM
The results of my IGF-1 LR3 + Insulin (both on & off cycle) experiments were disappointing. There wasn't the synergy I was hoping for. It doesn't appear that IGF-slin works the same as HGH-slin.
01-28-2008, 01:14 PM
that may be becuase increases in IGF-1 (from using IGF-1 standalone instead of the increases in IGF-1 from HGH use), doesnt inhibit insulin sensitivity/production the way that HGH does.
The only thing I like about slin OFF cycle is that it is a strong anti-catabolic and may promote (when used IGF-1 and other anti-catabolics / anabolics) some slight growth instead of just flirting with muscle preservation.
01-29-2008, 12:48 PM
If IGF-1 is active for 72 hours, then why not use more of a E3D dosing scheme? That is what is recommended in Grunt's thread.
I believe the most common dosing I've seen is 40 mcg E3D bi-laterally 5 minutes PWO into the muscles just worked.
01-30-2008, 04:08 PM
01-30-2008, 08:08 PM
I respect Grunt. But it would be a mistake to take him as the ultimate authority.Originally Posted by CryingEmo
Maybe so. A lot of people seem to dose even higher. But many commonly held "beliefs" such as IGF-1 LR3 is responsible for recognizable local site growth has turned out to be wrong. Keep in mind that in the earlier days some of those same pundits claimed injecting IGF-1 LR3 into adipose tissue would bring localized fatloss as well.Originally Posted by CryingEmo
CryingEmo have you injected IGF-1 LR3 before? How many vials have you used? What was your protocol each time? What sort of conclusions have you drawn? Thanks for your time and consideration bro.
01-30-2008, 08:20 PM
There is a lot of user evidence now that short burt cycles of high dose HGH & Insulin (ex. 10iu/10iu) taken together post workout for 2 to 4 weeks in a pulse fashion (i.e. EOD etc.) produce significant muscle growth. This growth is evident within the cycle time period. This seems to work w/ and w/o steroids.
I was hoping to get at least some of the same "synergy" from the IGF-1/Slin combo run the same way w/ hormones BUT I did not see it. So the "magic" seems to come from taking HGH & slin together in high enough dose in a pulsating fashion.
01-30-2008, 08:53 PM
Currently doing it now, and have been for 5 weeks. The only things I can conclude so far are it's remarkable healing abilities, and strength/size gains. While it takes much longer to realize the latter, I have noticed it somewhat already. I can't comment on fat loss until my diet stabilizes, which has constantly been changing lately. I haven't gained any fat, and have lost some however.
My opinions are just based on what I've read for the most part.
01-30-2008, 10:35 PM
01-30-2008, 10:49 PM
I do 30mcg(split 15/15) every now and then...usually twice a week...sometimes once
The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
01-31-2008, 02:52 AM
My latest IGF-1 run has been 10mcg per day for more than 3 months straight w/o anabolics and I have noticed increased strength for every workout during the entire time. I think the key to success w/ IGF-1 is being able to run it for very long periods of time. This really allows the anti-catabolic effect Pudz was talking about to really become evident.
01-31-2008, 03:03 AM
The peptide cjc1295 might end up being a cheaper & just as effective substitute for HGH though.
01-31-2008, 10:18 AM
I've tried it a bit recently, thought it might help upregulate my hpta, and for other benefits. Used it for 4 weeks.
I've tried 50mcg, split bilaterally pwo, and I've tried 60mcg, split bilat (3 x a week). Neither of these doses have significantly increased my hunger like I've heard some people mention. And the only time I've felt hypo, was when I stopped it for a week, and then had a heavy fullbody workout (went hypo pwo). I know it's a good source (c1) but I wonder if somehow I've mechanically degraded it by carrying it around with me several times on the subway, etc. It's been reconstituted with 6% aa and I'm diluting it by drawing up a bit of NaCl before use.
I'm noticing some gains and more vascularity, but nothing major. Things have been busy for me since I've stopped it, haven't been hitting the gym as much or eating as much, and I find I am retaining gains more on lower cals than I ever used to. So I guess that's a good sign
01-31-2008, 12:42 PM
if cjc1295 is a good substitute for GH, than how much would need to be taken to get the effect of say 8-10IU GH? also, since its a secretagogue (correct me if im wrong my preliminary research in this dept is not as extensive as it is in others) wouldnt it place a rebound/negative 'post-cessation' effect on the body? (assuming very large amounts need to be taken to achieve a comparable outcome to 8-10IU GH).
also....I like your theory of 10mcg/day for extended amounts of time, but in the interest of your body not getting accustomed to using it indefinitely, should a week or two off here and there be included? and maybe something to support GH output? I've heard otherwise, but many say that IGF-1 can downreg GH output over time.
01-31-2008, 12:45 PM
forgot to add:
the last source I got my IGF from did not make me as hungry, but I sure felt sick after PWO injects for a week. I know it worked because of its almost immediately noticed healing properties. it may not be that my new source's product is any more potent or pure, but other circumstances (using PCT instead of with cycle kickoff) that are making me so damn hungry NONSTOP all day, and craving carbs(mostly sugars---lots of OJ).
What is your guy's thoughts on the use of pegMGF with IGF-1 and whether the price is worth the synergy. I mean, I find IGF-1 to work well on its own. I dont have personal experience to conclude that MGF makes it any better. Anyone else?
01-31-2008, 08:46 PM
One big problem w/ using it this way is that it elevates GH for too long a period of time when what you are after is PWO spikes, not overall rise in baseline.
To be honest I haven't explored it seriously because at my age I'm eligible for prescription GH as a "deficient-adult" and I am planning on moving more into anti-aging quality of life protocols rather then muscle building.
Still I always found Dorian Yates approach interesting...namely priming his body for growth via a sustained cut and then an immediate all out bulk w/ all of the anabolic factors in play. The body is ready to grow and piling on the GH/slin protocol on top of AAS w/ massive eating meant he could exagerate the growth phase before his body caught on and started attempting to bring about homostasis. Once the body caught on he wouldn't fight it he'd come off w/ an easy recovery and solidify his gains before priming again for another growth phase.
So far w/ no breaks I see no signs of diminished GH output.
02-01-2008, 10:31 AM
thats awesome that you brought that up. I agree with dorian yates' approach. Dorian yates was one of the best bbers to ever live IMO (and been seen 'healthily' retired after a career as a 300lb successful beast). Sometimes i sit here and think to myself that although no matter how educated and planned and precautious i am I do not like to be ON more than I am OFF (over the course of the year). Also...I think that too many people are still assuming the "more is better" approach applies to the amount of time spent on a cycle.
from personal observation I noticed that once I put on my initial blast of weight during my cycle. the rest was just a plateau. It only took me about 6 weeks (after the 5 weeks of time it took for the esters to kick in) for all of my gains that I have now to be present on my physique. I think that the only thing being ON for those extra weeks did was let my body become adjusted to holding that weight and refine it a little. moreso, The rest of it was spent processing 'extra' gear, and tiring my body out.
I agree that the probem with recovery comes when you are trying to reverse a newly found homeostasis. No matter what conditions (healthy or not) your body is being forced into, it will try to create homeostasis. combating this with ancillary drugs and supplements only does us so much good, becuase each additional one of them come with their own side effects/body stress. plus, there are too many biological mechanisms working together to create this balanced system that we cannot truly understand (at least yet) how 'everything' works.
the theory of burst cycling is to take advantage of the time window before the body realizes that this influx of anabolics and adrogens is not just temporary but 'permanent' (becuase what else is your body to 'think'[for lack of a better word] when it is consistently processing these compounds). the few weeks it takes for the body to realize and adapt an equilibrium to this synthetic endocrine manipulation is the time during which the drugs are most successful at performing our desired muscle growth. that said, it makes sense to flood the system (within healthy reason) with anabolics and anti-catabolics that cover almost every angle of growth during these few weeks. so for instance one could be using a PWO combination of gh/slin/igf-1 to take advantage of their benefits and synergy, as well as flooding their AR's with maybe 1g test prop and some deca/tren (gotta watch BP etc in higher doses). the steroidal compounds suggested may not be the best combination, but of course that in itself can open up some new discussion.
during the 4-6 weeks that we flood our system with these compounds, we take advantage of the body not having the homeostatic mechanisms in place to regulate and embrace/limit this new muscle (hypertrophy and hyperplasia when covering every angle). we also avoid some of the adjustments the body makes/accounts for when we finally do adjust to the manipulated endocrine system. these would include, severly impacted lipids, possibly BPH(under the assumption that it takes much time to enlarge the prostate), excessive estrogen formation (estrogen is also a player in BPH), aggrivated hairloss and other negative effects associated with DHT conversion over time. Obviously testosterone does aromatize, therefore increasing the likelihood of water retention and BP elevation, it also converts to DHT. But....time is the different variable here. and of course and AI and possibly a systematic DHT blocker like dutasteride or fina could be used if found necessary.
I truly believe that there is only so much you can 'calculate' and at some point one has to rely on a sense of feel. like you said DatBtrue, as mr yates would 'feel' himself getting burnt out he would come off and have a much easier time recovering. this makes a lot of sense, the body hasnt had time to decide to be shut down fully and place all the mechanisms that keep it that way becuase if feels that its androgens are being 'replaced' for a while. with this method, concept of replacement is avoided because full shut down isnt reached. I think that 250mg test is just as suppressive as 1g. so the dose isnt the issue, its the time.
the downside I can see here is side effects from rapid hormonal changes. obviously there is a risk taken there.
the underlying idea is why not USE when you NEED to and come off as soon as you dont NEED to be on (and not have to spend so much unproductive time on, as well as trying to recover). we can also avoid problems like the risk of infertility when our bodies have been relying on artificial androgens most of the year.
let's face it. we all want to improve our physiques and it would be so nice to just get detailed advice from the best (pro bbers etc), BUT many of them have their reasons not to share such info. It takes years to build a physique like that with our without drugs. Its an accomplishment either way. I just think some of them are not relying on drugs the way others do. (doesnt mean they dont use them when they need to make progress). I think opening some discussion to these alternative methods cycling would be interesting. I will probably start planning a cycle of my own like this.
02-01-2008, 10:37 AM
01-26-2010, 06:52 PM
10-12-2010, 01:23 AM
I believe I am going to go with a en EOD dosing only 3x a wk. I got 10 vials w120mcgs per vial. Will it be ok to use only 60 EOD because I was wondering if the dose for the 3rd day once reconstituted would still be good on Monday, reconstitute on Fri, sit Sat, Sun, and use other 60 on Monday. Anyway, from what all I have read it seems to be the best way to go.
Also, I see some use an AA to reconstitute and say do not use water at all, but some of the websites that offer it say to use the water only. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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