Herniated Disc ~ Young unknowledgable Individual
- 07-03-2007, 06:37 PM
Herniated Disc ~ Young unknowledgable Individual
Preface : Need help and advice
Posted that in the general section and it goes over all whats going on, and luckily made my way over here thanks to Crunch.
I was doing a little research on some other threads and came across this (back injury IGF-1?)
Werewolf I wanted to point out this part of your post: "What this says is combination of HGH (or booster) (for platelet-derived growth factor) and IGF-1R3 would be strong choice to help heal disks. I have more, but this is the easiest to understand."
I am completly novice in this area and never thought I would have to be looking into this but it appears this could help me with my goal (as seen in the preface.)
Is IGF-1 or IGF-1R3 (never even heard of this one) a possiblity for myself, would it be safe? Any information on the possibility of aiding in my recovery would be much appreciated (both regarding IGF and the like substances or supplements more common such as BCAAs)
I really appreciate any help you guys can offer, Id rather discuss it here and see some quality information than wondering if what Im reading of google is legit.
- 07-03-2007, 08:41 PM
first, a herniated disc is a mechanical problem. Only therapy or surgery can fix that. Second igf does not do anything for discs.
Pretty much nohing can help your discs except the above.
the only other thing i can think of i stem cell.. but thats still being researched and experimented.
- 07-03-2007, 09:09 PM
Well it is a mechanical problem as the physical touching of the jelly is putting pressuring on the nerve, but the rupture in the disc's cartilage is what I was seeking information on IGF for. Im already undergoing physical therapy (so hands on stretching, electircal treatment, traction) and am going to start epirdural injections to get the jelly back inside the disc. The disc rupture site though needs to heal and could be benefited by the use of IGF-1R3 and potentialy HGH with it (as seen in the link above). This is what I interpreted from the reading I did in some other threads and why Im so curiouse as to its effectivness, Im not sure if IGF would have no impact on healing.
07-03-2007, 09:31 PM
07-04-2007, 04:25 AM
discs dont regrow that is fact ask ans spine specialist or neurologist.
If you have a rupture your screwed unless you plan on being sedentary, but if you play any contact sports or lift weights then you will have the same problem again IF you can fix the original rupture....i dont recomend the steroid injections because they actually make your disc weaker. The only way to really fix it is either spinal fusion or artificial disc replacement.
07-04-2007, 04:27 AM
you can give this a try it has worked wonders for me, i have degenerative discs.. its pricey but worth every penny.
DRX9000 Spinal Decompression
Prior to the recent advances in Spinal Decompression technology NO curative treatment was available for Degenerative Disc Disease. Treatments aimed at symptomatic relief only include physical therapy, anti-inflammatory medication, chiropractic care, home exercises, bed rest, narcotic pain medication, muscle relaxant medication, anti-depressant medication, epidural steroid injections and nerve blocks. The main surgical intervention has been to eliminate the disc entirely and fuse the bones above and below the disc together – cervical fusion or lumbar fusion surgery. Unfortunately, the success rate of this surgery is notoriously poor and repeat surgery rates approach 100% approximately 7 years following the initial surgery. Disc Replacement Surgery is still several years away from general use and initial results have been less-than-favorable.
DRX9000 Spinal Decompression reverses the ravages of Degenerative Disc Disease by slowly and methodically separating the bones of the spine thereby reducing pressure within the spinal discs. During treatment pressure within the disc is reduced from approximately 25 millimeters of mercury (25 mmHg) to approximately 200 millimeters of mercury BELOW ZERO (-200 mmHg). This negative pressure forces water, oxygen and nutrients to diffuse INTO the disc thereby rehydrating the degenerated disc. Repeated spinal decompression treatments retract the gelatinous core (Nucleus Pulposus) back to the center of the disc. Recentering the nucleus pulposus relieves direct pressure on the nerve caused by the disc degeneration.
The Spinal Decompression treatment motion is computer controlled to provide gentle and painless decompression of the injured spinal discs. The DRX9000 Spinal Decompression Unit incorporates an advanced treatment technique that slowly separates the bones of the spine while preventing protective muscle spasm from hindering the treatment. This decompression motion cycles between brief moments of separation and relaxation, known as oscillation, creating the pumping action necessary to re-hydrate the disc. The decompression is targeted to a specific disc level unlike outdated “traction” techniques that merely “pulled” the entire spine. This is accomplished by changed the Angle of Distraction. The natural curvature of the cervical spine and lumbar spine makes it possible to direct the decompressive distraction exactly perpendicular to the targeted disc by changing this Distraction Angle. This DRX9000 innovation makes the treatment far more effective than other existing techniques AND more comfortable at the same time. In fact, the DRX9000 Spinal Decompression treatment is so comfortable that patients often fall asleep during the treatment!
07-04-2007, 07:48 PM
07-04-2007, 08:33 PM
Thanks for the reply grunt, and Im sorry for making the post seem smaller than it was but I did read and take from the entire post. I am currently doing the McKenzie stretch at home, and tommorow I am going to instigate your ball on a flat bench technique when I go to the gym to do a calves, long walk, and your stretch workout (I like you exercise selections but I figure since I need to be going heavy Id rather stay away from lifting completly (except sitting calves) and just let it heal completly. Question about the stretch though, how long do you stay on the ball, do you do sets for a certain amount of time? Also do you move your legs up and down or just let them bend down?
Also had a a quick question regarding disc regeneration. Am I correct to understand that the fluid that has come out of the disc goes back in, and then they rupture in the disc itself mends? That was what I thought happened but then got a little confused.
As I said before Im starting the epdidural injections shortly so I may even try some Super Cicuss Rx to help with pain/healing propertries in the short term and then in a few weeks attempt IGF potentialy (thats the main reason I wanted to do research on it now instead of later)
I appreciate the threads and posts in various threads the info has been quite helpful in my outlook and how to get better.
07-04-2007, 09:07 PM
At first, just remain on the ball as long as feels comfortable. Then SLOWLY, GENTLY put the weight back on your spine. If you get off the ball too quickly, you will get some pain, and if you do it gently enough, you will get no pain. That's when you know your disc is back in its proper position.
At first, don't move the legs up and down, but you can very slowly roll forward and back on the ball, to change the apex of the stretch. Only begin to move legs up and down once you are pain-free.
And then a couple weeks later you can start lifting light and gentle again.
07-05-2007, 12:48 PM
some people just dont listen.
do you even know what those steroid injections do???
have fun wasting your money and further weakening your disks.
i just gave you the best and only method that works to reverse the herniation...
just because i dont have 5,000 posts doesnt mean i dont know what im talking about
we will be hearing back from you in about a year with the same problem.
07-05-2007, 01:11 PM
Its not a matter of not listening its a matter of being told one thing by my doctor and physical therapist and another here. I dont know what these steroid injections due other than that they shrink the size of the disc or something to pull it back in. It was also my understanding that removing the disc should be the last option (but in all honesty if thats what its going to take to get back into the gym and preparing for football than maybe I should just ask about that.
I'll ask my physical therapist today about the removal of the disc but have seen people on here and other patients that have had herniated discs before and through other means of treatment have gotten better.
Your post count has nothing to do with what I take from this board its a matter or not seeing why my doctor would tell me to do something thats going to make my disc weaker?
Ill ask about the deal at physical therapy today
07-05-2007, 03:46 PM
I talked to my physical therapist about it and agreed that instead of the injections I would be better off going for a removal of the fluid ooutside of the disc (and yes the cartildge that tore open does heal and repair itself.) I will discuss that with the neuroseurgen on Monday. Therapist agreed this would be the quicker solution and give me a better chance at football training in the nearer future
07-05-2007, 09:21 PM
It's all ugly. Doctors simply don't know how to repair these injuries. It is a sad state of affairs.
07-05-2007, 11:45 PM
I guess I have to assume its case by case (the MRI stated Large disc protrustion to the right side) and the severity is what is pushing me away from just physical therapy healing it (although the two other bulges will benefit from it.)
I dont what to expect on Monday, I guess Ill report back on what happens and what the neurosurgeon suggests becuase despite P/T and non-activity it feels like its getting worse rather than better.
07-05-2007, 11:50 PM
what level is your herniation?
the problem with a spinal fusion (thats when they take out the disc and fuse the two vertebre dogether) is that it compounds the pressure in the other discs because you eliminate that joint.
and no discs do not heal! I had a ruptured disc. I got a laminectomy (take out the nucleus pulpus that is sticking out)after all kinds of therapy didnt work. A year and a half later that same disc gave me problems again. WHY do you ask... because the disc does not heal. I my surgeon was one of the best neurosurgions in the world. He doesnt believe in fusions because he is an old cranky bastard. SO i asked him what am i supposed to do about this disc... he said keep having laminecomties. I gave him the finger and walked out. Goes to show you how doctors are scumbags and only care about $$$. Saw another top specialist in the country and got a spinal fusion.
I am fine now. And i am a pro fighter i train every day and have no problems.
i separated my shoulder once and my doc at the time wanted to give me cortizone... i asked him "doesnt cortizone weaken your joints?" he avoided my question. So i told him to go fck himself and said a bunch of other mean things and walked out.
They tried to make me pay for my visit and i threatened to sue their asses so they STFU and let me go.
I bet you if you go to 5 different doctors they are each going to tell you something different. That is why they call it a "practice" they are practicing at the expense of our well being and making us pay for it.
Doctors are like cops... most of them are scumbags, few of them actually do their job right and honestly.
07-06-2007, 12:00 AM
and even IF igf could heal discs it would take forever because there is verry little blood supply that goes to discs. But it doesnt so it doesnt matter.
07-06-2007, 12:12 AM
find a place that has the DRX9000 Spinal Decompression and go there.. its better than surgery and its better than injections.
However if you have a rupture you may need to end up having surgery. if its in the lumbar ot thorasic spine i think artificial disc replacement has been researched and experimented enough.. but you need to find out and do some reaserch yourself.
The other route would be fusion.
If you play football... and you dont eliminate that disc i will bet my house you will have more problems with that disc again in the near future 1-5 years if not sooner.
07-06-2007, 11:15 AM
07-06-2007, 12:30 PM
07-06-2007, 02:05 PM
07-06-2007, 06:26 PM
07-07-2007, 12:07 AM
I completley ruptured a disc about 6 years ago. I had sciatica..........couldn't get out of bed for 3 months..............the whole nine yards.
I went to doctors, chiropractors, physical therapists.......I f***ing went everywhere, because bodybuilding was my life and I felt like I had just lost a piece of me.
The doctor told me I needed to have surgery .....I TOLD HIM TO **** OFF........he wasn't about to cut on me..........I was 27 years old, in the prime of my life, and my body was strong enough to heal itself.
I'm now 34.........my back is completley healthy has been for about 2.5 years. I am bigger and stronger than I have ever been. I squat but don't deadlift, I feel like I could if I wanted to but I'm just a little scared I guess. In time I probably will.
The point is my back is completely healthy, with no steroid injections, no chiropractors, no physical therapists, no surgery, no nothing but some time, a positive attitude , and a little exercise. So don't buy into the "your screwed unless you plan on being sedentary". That's not the attitude you need.
This guy said he has degenerative disc disease. He isn't in the same situation as you. His back is pretty much f***** without constant medical attention. I know my boss and her mom have this. It's usually heredity.
One ruptured disc is not equivalent to degenerative disk disease. His discs have pretty much lost the ability to heal themselves.
And for the record discs can heal, they just do so very slowly. They have no direct blood supply. They get their nutrients from diffusion. During the night when gravity is no longer acting on your back the discs expand slightly. During this expansion they pull fluid and nutrients into their cells.
That's all basic spinal anatomy taught in any spinal anatomy course.....yes I know this from experience.
Anyway keep your head up and everything will be alright.
07-07-2007, 02:46 AM
07-07-2007, 12:24 PM
Yes your right, it took about three years before I was able to train legs and back.
I would say I was 99% at about 4 years.
07-07-2007, 01:06 PM
See thats the only reason I cant afford to do this naturally. I mean I will use these techniques (already started Grunt's advice on exercises) but I have one chance to to try for football and I know it sounds like Im being ignorant but I cant bring myself to not try and complete this dream/desire. If I fail I can always reabilitate and use tennis to get into Fordham but I had that ability and turned it down for football. 3 years is just too long for what I need to do. Friends of mine who are atheltes in college have had this problem and recived epidural injections and even though I may face it down the road again Ill have to hope I dont, or atleast not until after I have made it.
I will keep posted on what goes on and I appreciate everyones advice and insight. Who knows maybe I will be back here in a month to two months training legs and back and conidtion for football and maybe a year from now I wont. If Im smart I think I can pull this off.
07-07-2007, 11:40 PM
just know that the injections sound like the easiest way... they are not going to fix the rupture, so if you back to play you could cause more dammage and end up dammaging nerves or even your spinal cord.
if your going to go that route make sure you really strengthen your abs and back. That will at least help keep you more stable.
you still never told us what level the herniation was.
07-07-2007, 11:42 PM
If thats the case then immediate surgery is required unless you want to live with permanent nerve dammage and that can range from motor function to sensory function.
07-08-2007, 12:47 PM
Do you think it would be a smart idea to potentially recieve the shots and undergo DRX9000 treatment at the same time? When I got my MRI done there was advertisments for a doctor near me with the DRX9000 and I brought home some info and now it really has my attention (both from info online and the reccomendations on here.)
Would there be any drawbacks by going through both or is that not on option (like will the disc be irratated by the injections and not work well during decompression? I figured Id get the pain relief of the injections and the healing effects of the DRX but maybe it doesnt work it combination. I will also also the doctor tommorow but also highly value your opinions on it as well.
And on a side note it is a Large paricentral disc herniation at L5-S1 wand moderate bulging discs at L3 and L4. I figure the DRX will defintly help with the bulging discs and hopefully the herniated disc.
07-08-2007, 11:59 PM
I have had 5 micro-discectomy's, starting when I was 17 and every year and a half after that. My last surgery was a disaster, it left me with permanant nerve damage. I refused to have surgery the last time and found a great chiropractor, it was the best thing I have ever done for myself, as long as I go for an adjustment every six weeks (for $45) I can squat and deadlift all I want. You gotta do your homework before trying one, there are a lot of quaks out there.
07-10-2007, 03:31 AM
i wouldnt go with the epidural... you need to be patient this isnt a new video game that you cant wait to get. The effects making the wrong decision or a hasty decision are permanent and you may not like them.
I have said it several times DO NOT DO TH STEROID INJECTIONS!!!! all they will do is give you pain relief. They lessen the inflamation on the nerve. At the same time weaken the integrity of your discs. You are going to be playing football and lifting weights why in the FUUCK would you want to weaken already herniated and ruptured discs???????? TAKE THE TIME TO HEAL, DO THE THERAPY and go from there you just might be able to get through this without surgery. Dont act like a little kid that cant wait to open his Christmas presents.
07-10-2007, 10:19 AM
Can you provide any links/info on how the epidural injection makes them weaker? Its not that I dont belive you its just that this is a internet forum and deciding to cancel the appointment (injection is set for next monday) would need some solid proof. However I do see what you mean with these f***ing doctors. He basiclly said lifting heavy should be a thing of the past, Im 18 years old and he says Im done lifting heavy? Your right these guys really dont know what the f to do with this ****, sure it will take a while but I can recover form this...
I cant just get the one shot for pain relef and do all the rest of the pt at the same time? Like I said can you provide any information on how its negative/ what are the long term effects? Because the way you desscribe it I dont even see why anyone would prescribe this treatment if its so awful?
07-10-2007, 11:02 AM
07-10-2007, 12:13 PM
Im not sure if it is cortisone, I didnt think it was and Im almost positive it isnt because I do know the risks of it but Im going to call today to find out what exactly he will be using.
07-10-2007, 12:42 PM
Alright I found out the shot is a corticosteroid and see the point your making of weaking tissues, eliminatiing healing ability, and so on (not just with cortisone but all steroid shots.) Im very close to cancelling this procedure because it just isnt what Im looking for and it sounds like an immideate relife instead of cure like you have been saying, but this is what Im thinking.
If I dont take this shot how do I get ride of this pain? Just continuing physical therapy, trying the drx9000 (which the pain managment guy said he didnt like becuase of lack of results it has produced, but I dont see that as proof not to try it because I figure most of his patients are older and not in the same situation,) visting a chiropractor, and conituing lifting (specialized lifting) and put in certain lifts that help the damaged areas (like Grunts thoughts and McKenzies stretches)?
07-10-2007, 12:51 PM
Now you're talking.
07-10-2007, 06:15 PM
Well now that I have decided to go this route and rehab on my own (and the help of individuals on AM who have delt with this before) I have to come up with a solid/detailed plan to follow (and will also make a log so I can track my recovery and also give another resource to potential people with the same problem in the future.)
Im not real sure ont he exercises I can/can't do, I have an idea but dont want to hnder progress by doing an exercise that is putting pressure (or atleast extra that is unneeded.) The underlined exercises are the one I figure I can do, the others are ones I would love to use but dont think I can. **also taking Grunts suggestions on the other threads list**
BB/DB Presses: I was told they were a bad idea (too much pressure and lack of back support.)
Smith Machine Bench/Incline: Any thoughts?
Hammer Strength Press/Incline Press: Any drawbacks?
Dips: Any Info?
Push Ups: Would this be putting too much stress on the disc?
Any exercises you would suggest/incorporate?
Lat Pull Down: Seems like it would help take pressure of the disc if anything?
Pull Ups: again less pressure on the back, except stablizer muscles with I should be strengthing anyway right?
Single Arm Hammer Strength Lat Pulldown
Reverse Extension: The one where you rest your ack on the pad and push towards the back, like a backwards hyperextension. Doing this in PT so I figure I can do them at the gym.
Obviously I know deads, bent over rows, t-bar rows, one arm db rows are all out of the questions (for NOW , one day Ill be back!)
Bis: Im a little lost on this because I dont see how to do them without putting pressure on the disc.
Dumbell Curls/incline Curls: too much pressure, I am at about 45-50 lbs for them so thats 100lbs bearing down doing curls.
Preacher Curls: Either free weight or a machine, I dont see too much pressure being put on the disc?
Skull Crushers: I would use a BB instead of an easy bar so that I wouldnt have to lug a heavy bar around and bend over and such and it would only be between 50-100 lbs on the bar so not too much pressure.
Tate Presses: Since its single armed and a hard exercise anyway light weight can still be utalized.
Diamond Push Ups: Again not sure if pushups can be utalized but would love to use these in the program if I can.
Forearms: I dont see too much problem here. No reverse curls or hammer curls right?
Standing wrist curls: Wont be more than 50-100 lbs.
Kneeling wrist curls: Forarm on bench
Grip Strength Thing: where I just squeeze the hand gripper, this one is money ahah ~ gonna need that grip strength when I get back to normal
Legs: I really have no idea what to do... Although I plan on beating the living hell out of my calves the next few months ahha.
Leg Extensions: I still see pressure being put on
Leg Curls: Same as above
Seated Calf Raises: Will be using DC calves and planning on seeing some serious growth.
Thats about it.
Lateral Raises: Only 20-35 lbs on this and will only do one arm at a time to redcue pressure even more.
Front Raises Same as above
Thats all I can think of. I cant wait to be able to do upright rows and shoulder press again though. One day.. one day.
Core Work: Its imporant but Im lost here, I have no idea what I can do since I cant flex forward too far at the moment.
Extreme Decline Situp: I tried this the other day to take pressure off my back and it worked pretty well. I take a decline situp bench and put some stepup things under it to make it basiclly vertical and I just sit on it and lett gravity pull me down. I didnt try situps but when I got off it I dont remeber it hurting at all that much. It is essentially like Grunts Inverted situps using those boots but with a decline bench.
Kneeling Cable Crunches: What ya think, I ussualy go heavy on them but I could go light (unless heavy would be good?)
Cardio: Planning on using this as a time to shed some pounds so I would like to do some light cardio.
Walking: AM empty stomach. Extended walks but not jogging or anything atm.
Machines: walking on a treadmill and eliptical.
Grunts Ball Exercise: Will be doing this every time Im at the gym. Only thing Im wondering is do I do sets of this or just stay on the ball as long as I can?
Decline Bench: Just setting up an extreme decline bench and lieing on it some days to take some pressure of the disc and sort of use it as a traction tool.
Any other streches to help?
Only thing Im unsure of is can I go heavy with correct exercises? I plan on using this time of recooping to not only get better but shed some pounds so I can afford to not always go heavy and instead use higher reps. Also like above I will be incorporating some light walking cardio.
Supplements I plan on using are Super Cissus RX and potientialy some fat loss ones but doubtfull.
Thats about it and appreciate any help/advice that be offered about the exercises and stretches.
07-10-2007, 06:41 PM
O and also one point of calrification. All these stretches and what I will be doing is in attempt to get the nucleus pulpus away from the nerve and potentially back into the disc and then the disc heals? Im just curious about what Im trying to achieve.
07-10-2007, 11:11 PM
GO EASY ON PRETTY MUCH ALL EXERCISES
BB/DB Presses: I feel they are fine, just go EASY on them, none of that driving with your feet or arching your back stuff. DB presses are a pretty bad idea since the DB's are heavy and you will have to carry them.
Smith Machine Bench/Incline: Flat is OK
Hammer Strength Press/Incline Press: Very good.
Dips: Don't do them. When you get off the dip station you have a tendency to just land on your feet much harder than your disc would hope.
Push Ups: NO! Don't do these! Bad, bad.
Lat Pull Down: Good
Pull Ups: Don't do these at first. Later when you are pain free 100% of the time you can incorporate them.
Cable Rows: Do them when you are pain-free.
Single Arm Hammer Strength Lat PulldownI would do them with both arms at the same time. The lateral movement is not very good for your disc. Whatever you do, STAY PAIN-FREE. Any time you have pain, you are making the injury worse.
Reverse Extension: Do the one on the ball atop a bench, it is MUCH better than a straight reverse hyper.
Bis: Im a little lost on this because I dont see how to do them without putting pressure on the disc.
Dumbell Curls/incline Curls: too much pressure.
Preacher Curls: If you do them right they are OK.
You can do machine curls. DB preachers can be nice too.
Skull Crushers: Only do them later.
Tate Presses: Dunno this one.
Diamond Push Ups: Nope
Cable triceps extensions should be the core of what you do. Do them straight-grip, reverse-grip, slow motion, etc.
Standing wrist curls: Nope.
Kneeling wrist curls: Yes
Grip Strength Thing: Sure.
Leg Extensions: Light and slow
Leg Curls: You should be able to do them. Always work pain-free.
Lateral Raises: Yep
Front Raises Yep
If you have a flye machine you can do reverse flyes for the posterior delt. You can also do the raises with cables.
Not much you can do.
Extreme Decline Situp: Sounds fine
Kneeling Cable Crunches: Nope.
Cardio: Planning on using this as a time to shed some pounds so I would like to do some light cardio.
Walking: As little walking as possible
Machines: Recumbent bike. By far the best.
Grunts Ball Exercise: Do some sets, stay 30, 60 seconds on the ball. Get back on your feet GENTLY.
Decline Bench: No this is not a good idea. You do my stretch instead.
Don't go heavy on ANYTHING. Training should be considered iffy every single day. Don't COUNT on being able to train AT ALL at first. Whatever you do, stay pain-free. The moment you have pain back there, you have just made the injury slighlty worse. It will take a day or two of ZERO pain for you to recoup from that damage. Keep tabs on that.
07-10-2007, 11:13 PM
07-11-2007, 01:09 AM
you finaly listened after someone else told you what i told you several times ... i cant believe i wasted my time.
I just looked at the workout your planning on doing and there is hardly anything for strenghtening your core and lower back which is what is going to give you protection.
I dont know why i am giving you any more advice but if you want to work your core without engaging your back and puttin pressure on your discs, do crunches and leg raises. And for your back do the super man.
Thats all I have to say.. your welcome!!!!
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