So,,, is T3 pointless now?

[FullyBuilt]

If on GH, is it pointless to run T3 while dieting, ever since this new T4 info came out?

 

[Ubiquitous]

what new t4 info? I'm out of the loop.

 

[FullyBuilt]

There are tons of articles on it. I just skimmed them, but basically from what i've heard, using T4 is much more effective in fat buring when on HGH. I guess the coversion of T4-T3 causes much better gains than taking just T3. Not sure though. Some of the more expierenced members of this subject will chime in, it will be appreciated. Thanks

 

[Drew1200]

I remember an article in MD where Palumbo was talking about T4, and how your body automatically regulates the amount of T4 that it converts into T3, so basically anything in excess of your normal T3 output isn't used... basically he said T4 didn't do much of anything, and T3 is the only form that actually ramps up metabolism.

I dont know much about the way T4 would interact with GH tho...

 

[Rocky82]

I remember an article in MD where Palumbo was talking about T4, and how your body automatically regulates the amount of T4 that it converts into T3, so basically anything in excess of your normal T3 output isn't used... basically he said T4 didn't do much of anything, and T3 is the only form that actually ramps up metabolism.

I dont know much about the way T4 would interact with GH tho...

This makes more sense biochemically. If you take lots of T4 for prolonged periods of time, you will exhaust your body's supply of thyroid peroxidase (TPO), which converts T4 into T3. On the flip side of the coin, taking pure T3 will shut your thyroid down hard, which is why you need to ramp up and down when using it and being extremely careful. I personally don't use T3 as I believe it's extremely dangerous (especially when used in conjuction with Beta agonist stims) and as most of us know, your thyroid is nowhere near as resilient as your testes when responding to axis shutdown.

 

[FullyBuilt]

I always thought the thyroid was the easiest and fastest to recover. Hasnt there only been 1 or 2 cases ever of thyroid shutdown? So what would you consider a long time for T4? Think a month at 200mcg is too much? That would only be equivilant to 50mcg t3.

 

[Chewster]

ive read a few saying t4 is the way to go with gh. Id actually like to know which is better because my test subject is 2 months into some blue tops and one article said your basically wasting your money if you take gh without t4.

 

[drumirvin]

My lil' old monkey used t4 for his last show instead of t3. I dosed him at 300mcgs every morning(ramping up of course). This was stacked with gh as well as ghrp-6/igf/slin. The fat lil' bast'd lost tons of fat and won his show. I ramped him down 25 to 50 mcgs every third day until 0 on the Wednesday before his show. He had no problems with rebound effects and in actuallity he has stayed fairly lean since his show. Oh...I kept him on t4 for over 3 months. I had his levels checked by his vet and all is good in the thyroid. Just my three cents worth.

 

[Rocky82]

My lil' old monkey used t4 for his last show instead of t3. I dosed him at 300mcgs every morning(ramping up of course). This was stacked with gh as well as ghrp-6/igf/slin. The fat lil' bast'd lost tons of fat and won his show. I ramped him down 25 to 50 mcgs every third day until 0 on the Wednesday before his show. He had no problems with rebound effects and in actuallity he has stayed fairly lean since his show. Oh...I kept him on t4 for over 3 months. I had his levels checked by his vet and all is good in the thyroid. Just my three cents worth.

Your test monkey is lucky to have such a knowledgable owner. And please congratulate him on winning the show!

The main plus I can see from T4 is the added "safety" if you want to call it that, over T3. Please dont misunderstand me here, a T4 overdose is just as serious as T3, but T3 is roughly 4 times as potent as T4 (100 mcg T4 = 25 mcg T3), giving you a little room in dosing. Also, as I stated above, your body only has so much Thyroid Peroxidase that it produces. If you're taking T3 you're bypassing this enzyme and there's no "safety net" in place. The T3 will go right to the receptors and start working. The T4 must first interact with TPO and is then converted to T3 in a ratio of approximately 4:1.


Hey Drumivirin, what anabolic steroids cycle did your test monkey use prior to his show?? I also have a chimp that's getting ready for a show soon and he likes to ramp up hard on androgens (1g+ test e or sust) for the first month, then switch to prop for the remaining 8 weeks with tren ace, Halotestin, and masteron, all the while running GH. He doesn't like messing with his thyroid or using diuretics. Any tips from your monkey to my chimp?

 

[drumirvin]

Hey Rocky...
This last show my lil' monkey started his diet right at 19 weeks out and was on 1gm of Sustanon 250 and 500-600 mg of Deca with GH and slin. I switched him to Prop/Tren ACE just like you said...8 weeks out...I threw Masteron in at 6 week out at 100 ED. I started Winny oral at 150mg per day and ramped it to 300 by the friday right before the show. I know this is a heavy load on orals but I guess I had to do what I had to do for to make that lil monkey win...He had HUGE competition. My monkey used halotestin the last two weeks..oh how I love halo..I just had to watch the lil moneys liver. I added ghrp-6 with igf and peg mgf at the last 5 weeks. My monkey was interested in some experimenting. My monkey did use clen/t4 as well throughout and alternated with ECA stack. Boy talk about synergy with asprin and t4 <phew!> I dropped all the oils at 10 days out and dropped gh 14 days out but continued with ghrp-6 and igf until that monday. I cut slin out completely at 8 weeks. My monkey used dyazide so I wasn't concerned to much with bloating...I added creatine in with his carb load (just to see) and with the igf and slin, PHUKKKK ME!! The pumps that my monkey got were insane!! This was the first time I used slin on a carbload without F...ing it up. Oh my monkey took the winny to friday and halo on show day. It sounds to me that you run cycles for your test subjects very similar to me...let me know what you did...I think the above is what I will use for next year as well..I might tweek some dosages but will have to see. Goodluck!!

 

[FullyBuilt]

Can you run T4 2weeks on/2off like T3 or is that not a good idea since T3 is out of your system in a few days and T4 is like a week right? I wanted to add T4 into my 16week bulker with GH, only to make the GH more effective. I'll probably only use 125mcg T4 but don't wanna run it the whole 16weeks. What do you think is best? Maybe 1month on/1off?

 

[Rocky82]

Hey Rocky...
This last show my lil' monkey started his diet right at 19 weeks out and was on 1gm of Sustanon 250 and 500-600 mg of Deca with GH and slin. I switched him to Prop/Tren ACE just like you said...8 weeks out...I threw Masteron in at 6 week out at 100 ED. I started Winny oral at 150mg per day and ramped it to 300 by the friday right before the show. I know this is a heavy load on orals but I guess I had to do what I had to do for to make that lil monkey win...He had HUGE competition. My monkey used halotestin the last two weeks..oh how I love halo..I just had to watch the lil moneys liver. I added ghrp-6 with igf and peg mgf at the last 5 weeks. My monkey was interested in some experimenting. My monkey did use clen/t4 as well throughout and alternated with ECA stack. Boy talk about synergy with asprin and t4 <phew!> I dropped all the oils at 10 days out and dropped gh 14 days out but continued with ghrp-6 and igf until that monday. I cut slin out completely at 8 weeks. My monkey used dyazide so I wasn't concerned to much with bloating...I added creatine in with his carb load (just to see) and with the igf and slin, PHUKKKK ME!! The pumps that my monkey got were insane!! This was the first time I used slin on a carbload without F...ing it up. Oh my monkey took the winny to friday and halo on show day. It sounds to me that you run cycles for your test subjects very similar to me...let me know what you did...I think the above is what I will use for next year as well..I might tweek some dosages but will have to see. Goodluck!!

Hey I'm gonna start a new thread when I get a chance on pre-contest AAS cycles. I'll link it to this one, but I dont want to hijack anymore.

 

[Chewster]

good posting

 

[skull]

I kinda suspected[no medical proof]that I had trouble converting t4 to t3 just because I was taking armour at 40mcg 2xs per day with no results [couldnt get my waking tem p above97*hypo]now Im thinking maybe I just needed a larger dose? Actualy Im thinking my thyroid is FU*KED because Im takin liquid t3 at 200mcg and still cant get my temp much over 97*[unless its bunk]

 

[Grunt76]

Can you run T4 2weeks on/2off like T3 or is that not a good idea since T3 is out of your system in a few days and T4 is like a week right? I wanted to add T4 into my 16week bulker with GH, only to make the GH more effective. I'll probably only use 125mcg T4 but don't wanna run it the whole 16weeks. What do you think is best? Maybe 1month on/1off?

Look FB stop being so paranoid about your thyroid.

Research has PROVEN that thyroid recovers easily after T3 or T4. Unless you are already going hypothyroid, in which case it will only hasten the process.

 

[FullyBuilt]

Look FB stop being so paranoid about your thyroid.

Research has PROVEN that thyroid recovers easily after T3 or T4. Unless you are already going hypothyroid, in which case it will only hasten the process.

SO you think just run it the at 100-125mcg(T4) the whole 16weeks?

 

[skull]

what would you make of somone who does not fully respond to t3 [no matter the dose]? Ive been hypo for years--when Im not using any thyroid meds my waking temp is 96*when I am using t3[and Ive been thru a couple brands]in upwards of 200mcg I still cant get past 97.5*.Ive also used different thermometers.

 

[J-Will]

Taking T4 is like taking pro-hormones. Just take the real thing.
IE. The drug T4 converts to....T3 Cheaper and easier-half the tabs!

 

[J-Will]

t3

what would you make of somone who does not fully respond to t3 [no matter the dose]? Ive been hypo for years--when Im not using any thyroid meds my waking temp is 96*when I am using t3[and Ive been thru a couple brands]in upwards of 200mcg I still cant get past 97.5*.Ive also used different thermometers.

I onced asked Dan Duchaine and Bill Roberts about this in seperate phone consults. They bascially said the same thing-some people just need ridiculously high doeses of T3 to get the effect.

The same way some don't respond to Clen (myself included) while others do great on it. (at least the first 2-3 weeks)

 

[Grunt76]

SO you think just run it the at 100-125mcg(T4) the whole 16weeks?

Uh... Depending what you want to do, you'd surely do better at 300 to 400mcg. I've been using 300mcg for a couple months now. When reaching the end, taper down over a couple weeks and you should be fine.

 

[FullyBuilt]

Uh... Depending what you want to do, you'd surely do better at 300 to 400mcg. I've been using 300mcg for a couple months now. When reaching the end, taper down over a couple weeks and you should be fine.

Oops, should have mentioned that. I def don't want to diet. Gonna add it in a 16week bulker with AAS GH/IGF/Slin(3x per week protocol) just to get the most out of the GH.

 

[Grunt76]

Oops, should have mentioned that. I def don't want to diet. Gonna add it in a 16week bulker with anabolic steroids GH/IGF/Slin(3x per week protocol) just to get the most out of the GH.

Oh. Right. Well 125mcg should be about right.

 

[Rocky82]

Agreed...wouldnt go higher than that unless you're cutting

 

[CHAPS]

How would you cycle it Rocky? I'd like to use it in my cutter

 

[Rocky82]

How would you cycle it Rocky? I'd like to use it in my cutter

It's very dependent on your tolerance to thyroid hormones. The rule of thumb seems to be (using T3 as an example) to start at 12.5 mcg daily and increase by 12.5 mcg every 3rd or 4th day until you reach a comfortable dose. You can then hold at this dose and repeat the dosing increments in reverse order to taper off. From everything I've heard, read, and seen, 75-100 mcg of T3 seems to be the cap. So this transaltes into 300-400 mcg of T4. Personally, I'm going to be giving T4 a try soon and will start very, very conservatively at 12.5-25 mcg daily of T4 and work my way up every 4th day. It will take a while to get up to a meaningful dose, but it's always better to be slow and steady when dealing with your thyroid.

 

[Grunt76]

It's very dependent on your tolerance to thyroid hormones. The rule of thumb seems to be (using T3 as an example) to start at 12.5 mcg daily and increase by 12.5 mcg every 3rd or 4th day until you reach a comfortable dose. You can then hold at this dose and repeat the dosing increments in reverse order to taper off. From everything I've heard, read, and seen, 75-100 mcg of T3 seems to be the cap. So this transaltes into 300-400 mcg of T4. Personally, I'm going to be giving T4 a try soon and will start very, very conservatively at 12.5-25 mcg daily of T4 and work my way up every 4th day. It will take a while to get up to a meaningful dose, but it's always better to be slow and steady when dealing with your thyroid.

This is wrong.

T4 and T3 are very different animals in some respects.

One of those is half-life. T4 has a half-life of days or weeks. It is very long and it takes a couple weeks to feel the full effects of a given dose. So start with 300mcg on a cut, maintain 3-4 weeks and then adjust, keeping in mind that it will take a couple weeks for you to be under the effect of that given dosage.

 

[Rocky82]

This is wrong.

T4 and T3 are very different animals in some respects.

One of those is half-life. T4 has a half-life of days or weeks. It is very long and it takes a couple weeks to feel the full effects of a given dose. So start with 300mcg on a cut, maintain 3-4 weeks and then adjust, keeping in mind that it will take a couple weeks for you to be under the effect of that given dosage.

Regardless of half life, advising someone to start with 300 mcg is a bit reckless and ill-advised, especially if they have no experience with T4 or T3. Patients with clinical hypothyroidism are given a replacement dose of usually 1.6 mcg/kg/day, meaning that for a 220 lb bodybuilder (of which maybe 1% of the people on this board are) 150-160 mcg daily would do it. For someone who is looking for a metabolic boost but who is actually euthyroid, such a dose at once would be more likely to cause a thyroid storm and other adverse side effects. Just because T4 has a longer half life than T3 does not mean you shouldn't titrate up accordingly. I may have mis-spoken regarding the manner of titrating up (i.e. too gradually), but nevertheless either dumping or removing a large amount of exogenous thyroid hormone on your system at once is a mistake. I'm not saying that 300-400 mcg is too much by any means, just that beginning at that dose in a euthyroid individual would not be wise.

But this is all academic. I don't have any experience with thyroid hormone so I'm open to anyone and everyone with real world experience. I'm interested in using thyroid hormone in my future cycles and would prefer T4 to T3.

 

[Grunt76]

Regardless of half life, advising someone to start with 300 mcg is a bit reckless and ill-advised, especially if they have no experience with T4 or T3. Patients with clinical hypothyroidism are given a replacement dose of usually 1.6 mcg/kg/day, meaning that for a 220 lb bodybuilder (of which maybe 1% of the people on this board are) 150-160 mcg daily would do it. For someone who is looking for a metabolic boost but who is actually euthyroid, such a dose at once would be more likely to cause a thyroid storm and other adverse side effects. Just because T4 has a longer half life than T3 does not mean you shouldn't titrate up accordingly. I may have mis-spoken regarding the manner of titrating up (i.e. too gradually), but nevertheless either dumping or removing a large amount of exogenous thyroid hormone on your system at once is a mistake. I'm not saying that 300-400 mcg is too much by any means, just that beginning at that dose in a euthyroid individual would not be wise.

But this is all academic. I don't have any experience with thyroid hormone so I'm open to anyone and everyone with real world experience. I'm interested in using thyroid hormone in my future cycles and would prefer T4 to T3.

What you fail to understand is that even when starting with 300mcg from day one, the active compound, T3, will only gradually increase over the span of about 3 weeks. T4 itself isn't active. Well it figures since you don't have experience with it.

300 from the get-go should be just perfect. For a cut.

 

[Rocky82]

What you fail to understand is that even when starting with 300mcg from day one, the active compound, T3, will only gradually increase over the span of about 3 weeks. T4 itself isn't active. Well it figures since you don't have experience with it.

300 from the get-go should be just perfect. For a cut.

I don't appreciate the condescending attitude Grunt. You can pontificate all you want, I'm just trying to save some young guys from going into atrial fibrillation because they took the advice of someone with a degree from WebMD. For someone that talks so much game about thyroid hormone, IGF-1, and everything else you should be on stage next to Jay and Ronnie.

 

[J-Will]

300mcg may cause rapid heart beat if you start that high. My blood pressure goes up quite a bit when I take more than 200mcg's.
I think 100mcg would be a better "starting point" for a new user.
Another popular method is just using 12.5mcg of T3 indefinitely to boost metabolism WITHOUT any suppression.

 

[mywetnightmares]

300mcg may cause rapid heart beat if you start that high. My blood pressure goes up quite a bit when I take more than 200mcg's.
I think 100mcg would be a better "starting point" for a new user.
Another popular method is just using 12.5mcg of T3 indefinitely to boost metabolism WITHOUT any suppression.

If one were looking for a boosted metabolism for an extended period of time would t3 be the way to go or would t4 be what you need? Also would there be a necessity for an anabolic or if the dose is low enough could you get by without it?

 

[FullyBuilt]

300mcg may cause rapid heart beat if you start that high. My blood pressure goes up quite a bit when I take more than 200mcg's.
I think 100mcg would be a better "starting point" for a new user.
Another popular method is just using 12.5mcg of T3 indefinitely to boost metabolism WITHOUT any suppression.

Doesnt the body produce close to 25mcg T3 natually, so wouldnt 12.5, just cause your thyroid to put out 1/2 what normally would?

 

[mywetnightmares]

Doesnt the body produce close to 25mcg T3 natually, so wouldnt 12.5, just cause your thyroid to put out 1/2 what normally would?

That number would be an average, if somebody used a low dose of t3 maybe instead of causing the thyroid to only produce half it would speed up the metabolism just a little bit. Maybe turn an endomorph into more of a mesomorph.

 

[FullyBuilt]

Yah but wouldnt T3 kinda be like test, where no matter what amount you take, your natty production will shut off and you'll only use what your injesting.

 

[mywetnightmares]

Yah but wouldnt T3 kinda be like test, where no matter what amount you take, your natty production will shut off and you'll only use what your injesting.

Not necessarily, shut off is dose dependent, if the dose is low enough then it will be like a boost rather than a replacement.

 

[Jared]

Not necessarily, shut off is dose dependent, if the dose is low enough then it will be like a boost rather than a replacement.

Now if we could only find out exactly what that dose was for every individual.

 

[Grunt76]

Now if we could only find out exactly what that dose was for every individual.

Under 20mcg. Somewhere around 15mcg will give you a total T3 level of about 40mcg, which is a 60% boost from the normal 25mcg level.

 

[mywetnightmares]

Under 20mcg. Somewhere around 15mcg will give you a total T3 level of about 40mcg, which is a 60% boost from the normal 25mcg level.

Would an androgen be needed to stave off muscle loss?

 

[Grunt76]

Would an androgen be needed to stave off muscle loss?

At that level, no. These levels of T3 are actually beneficial to both fatloss and muscle gain.

 

[Ubiquitous]

As t3 promotes protein synthesis as well.

 

[finneyc]

T-4 vs T-3

Not sure if this has been covered, but I saw on another board that the actual conversion of T-4 to T-3 has an effect on Protein Synthesis. So while your rat may lose weight on HGH/T-3, the use of T-4 may be indicated for its anabolic effect when using GH.

I hope I got that right. Here's a part of the post:

Thyroid Hormone & Growth Hormone
by: Anthony Roberts & James Daemon, PhD

originally posted on:
http://www.mindandmuscle.net/mindandmuscle...ew.php?artID=42


Additional T3 is not all that’s needed here. What’s needed is the actual conversion process of T4-T3, and the deiodinase presence and activity that it involves. This is because Local 5'-deiodination of l-thyroxine (T4) to active the thyroid hormone 3,3',5-tri-iodothyron’ine (T3) is catalyzed by the two 5'-deiodinase enzymes (D1 and D2). These enzymes not only ‘create’ T3 out of T4, but actually regulates various T(3)-dependent functions in many tissues including the anterior pituitary and liver. So when there is an excess of T3 in the body (but levels of T4 are normal), the body’s thyroid axis sends a negative feedback signal. This produces less (D1 and D2) deiodinase, but more of the D3 type, which signals the cessation of the T4-T3 conversion process, and is inhibitory of many of the synergistic effects that T3 has!

Remember, Type 3 iodothyronine deiodinase (D3) is the physiologic INACTIVATOR of thyroid hormones and their effects (13), and is well known to have independent interaction with growth factors (which is what GH and IGF-1 are).(14) This is because with adequate T4 and excess T3, (D1 and D2) deiodinase is no longer needed for conversion of T4 into T3, but levels of D3 deiodinase will be elevated. When there is less of the first two types of deidinase, it would seem that the T3 which has been converted to T4 can not exert it’s protein sparing (anabolic effects), as those first two types are responsible for mediation of many of the effects T3 has on the body. This seems to be one of the ways deiodinase contributes to anabolism in the presence of other hormones.

All of this would explain why anecdotally we see bodybuilders who use T3 lose a lot of muscle if they aren’t using anabolics along with it - they’re not utilizing the enzyme that would regulate some of T3’s ability to stimulate protein synthesis, while they are simultaneously signaling the body to produce an inhibitory enzyme (D3). And remember, for decades bodybuilders who were dieting for a contest have been convinced that you lose less muscle with T4 use, but that it’s less effective for losing fat when compared with T3? Well, as we’ve seen, without something (GH in this case) to aid in the conversion process, it would clearly be less effective! Since the deiodinase enzyme is also located in the liver, and we see decreased hepatic nitrogen clearance with GH + T3, it would seem that the D3 enzyme is exerting it’s inhibitory effects, but in the absence of the effects of the first two deiodinase enzymes, it remains unchecked and therefore not only limits the GH’s nitrogen retention capability.

In other words, if we have enough to GH in our body to aid in supraphysiological conversion of T4 into T3, but we already have the too much (exogenous) T3, the GH is not going to be converting any excess T4 into T3 after a certain point - which would be a limiting factor in GH’s anabolic effects, when coupled with the act that we’ve allowed the D3 enzyme to inhibit the T3/GH synergy that is necessary.

As further evidence, when we look at certain types of cellular growth (the cartilage cell in this case) we see that GH induced rises in IGF-I stimulates proliferation; whereas T3 is responsible for hypertrophic differentiation. So it would seem that in some tissues, IGF-1 stimulates the synthesis of new cells, while T3 makes them larger. In this particular case, the fact that T4 and (D1) deiodinase is an active component in this system is noted by the authors. They clearly state (paraphrasing) that: “T4 is converted to T3 by deiodinase (5'-DI type 1) in peripheral tissues…[furthermore]GH stimulates conversion of T4 to T3 , suggesting that some effects of GH may involve this pathway.” The thing I want you to notice is that the authors of this paper state that the conversion PATHWAY is probably involved, and not the simple presence of T3. (15 )

Also, that same study notes that T3 has the ability to stimulate IGF-I expression in tissues, whereas GH has no such effect (ibid).

So what are we doing when we add T3 to GH? We’re effectively shutting down the conversion pathway that is responsible for some of GH’s effects! And what would we be doing if we added in T4 instead of T3? You got it - we’d be enhancing the pathway by allowing the GH we’re using to have more T4 to convert to T3, thus giving us more of an effect from the GH we’re taking. Adding T4 into our GH cycles will actually allow more of the GH to be used effectively!

Remember, the thing that catalyzes the conversion process is the deiodinase enzyme. This is also why using low amounts of T3 would seem (again, anecdotally in bodybuilders) to be able to slightly increase protein synthesis and have an anabolic effect – they aren’t using enough to tell the body to stop or slow down production of the deiodinase enzyme. Hence, although this analogy isn’t perfect, think of GH as a supercharger you have attached to your car…if you don’t provide enough fuel for it to burn at it’s increased output level, you aren’t going to derive the full effects.

Thyroid status also may influence IGF-I expression in tissues other than the liver. So what we have here is a problem. When we take GH, it lowers T3 levels, but we need T3 to keep our GH receptor levels optimally upregulated. In addition, it’s suspected that many of GH’s anabolic effects are engendered as a result of production of IGF-1; so keeping our IGF receptors upregulated by maintaining adequate levels of T3 seems prudent. But as we’ve just seen, supplementing T3 with our GH will abolish Growth Hormone’s functional hepatic nitrogen clearance, possibly through the effect of reducing the bioavailability of insulin-like growth
factor-I (12.)

So we want elevated T3 levels when we take GH, or we won’t be getting ANYWHERE NEAR the full anabolic effect of our injectable GH without enough T3. And now we know that not only do we need the additional T3, but we actually want the CONVERSION process of T4 into T3 to take place, because it’s the presence of those mediator enzymes that will allow the T3 to be synergistic with GH, instead of being inhibitory as is seen when T3 is simply added to a GH cycle. And remember, we don’t only want T3 levels high, we want types 1 and 2 deiodinase to get us there- and when we take supplemental T3, that just doesn’t happen…all that happens is the type 3 deiodinase enzyme shows up and negates the beneficial effects of the T3 when we combine it with GH.