hGH cycle

joeyg

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Hi all,

I am 5'11" tall, 24 y.o., about 210 lbs, and ~16% body fat. After a bunch of research, I have decided to give hGH a go. I will be buying Jinotropin. I am aiming for fat loss and a little muscle mass gain. Currently, I plan to use 4 IUs 5/2 days on/off. So I will be going through about 20 IUs/week. Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, or criticisms? Besides the hGH, I will be eating plenty of protein, taking a good multi, and EFAs. I want to isolate the effect of hGH before anything substantial (e.g., test). Look forward to hearing from you.

J.
 

idunk42

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You're kinda young for the full benefits of GH, but you should still see some results.

How long do you plan on running it, because running it any less thant 4 or 5 months will probably not be worth it.
 

joeyg

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You're kinda young for the full benefits of GH, but you should still see some results.

How long do you plan on running it, because running it any less thant 4 or 5 months will probably not be worth it.
I am young. But I hope I will still results. I plan on running it for a while (more than 4-5 months).

J.
 
eisenmench

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At your age HGH should still be at a very productive level. Like Test and DHEA these all decrease with age. How much do you want to screw around with the hormonal balance in your body at 24? HGH is more effective for muscle gain added to aas. 4iu 5/2 should give some of the results you want, but I know you will want more dramatic effects for the financial investment and test is cheaper. Short cycles, low doses, plenty of off time between cycles.
 

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I ran a Ergomax cycle last year. It shut me down really hard, but I did gain 20 lbs of lean mass. I followed a thorough PCT (Nolva, Clomid, etc.) and still did not come back to 100%. 9 months after the cycle (March of this year), I went to an endo and my total T was half what it was precycle (440 versus 800 ng/dL). So then I shot up some hCG, which offered some moderate benefit.

In May/June, I ran the NHA stack. It also shut me down, though not as bad as the Ergomax. I am still recovering.

All in all, I find that my body is very sensitive to testosterone supplements. I would like to try some real gear but am afraid, given my history. For these reasons, I feel that hGH will be more beneficial to me.

Suggestions?

J.
 
Werewolf

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I ran a Ergomax cycle last year. It shut me down really hard, but I did gain 20 lbs of lean mass. I followed a thorough post cycle therapy (Nolva, Clomid, etc.) and still did not come back to 100%. 9 months after the cycle (March of this year), I went to an endo and my total T was half what it was precycle (440 versus 800 ng/dL). So then I shot up some hCG, which offered some moderate benefit.

In May/June, I ran the NHA stack. It also shut me down, though not as bad as the Ergomax. I am still recovering.

All in all, I find that my body is very sensitive to testosterone supplements. I would like to try some real gear but am afraid, given my history. For these reasons, I feel that hGH will be more beneficial to me.

Suggestions?

J.
What exactly were you taking in your NHA stack?
Coming off a NHA stack with testosterone suppressed should be almost impossible unless you were using something other than ADT for AI.

What were your estrogen levels like when testosterone was depressed?

What was your DHEA levels when testosterone was depressed?

Are you on extreme low fat diet?
Are you eating a lot of soy products?

Look at this paper for other possibilities.

View attachment ATD.wps.doc
 

joeyg

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What exactly were you taking in your NHA stack?
Coming off a NHA stack with testosterone suppressed should be almost impossible unless you were using something other than ADT for AI.

What were your estrogen levels like when testosterone was depressed?

What was your DHEA levels when testosterone was depressed?

Are you on extreme low fat diet?
Are you eating a lot of soy products?

Look at this paper for other possibilities.

View attachment 15163
I don't eat soy. My estrogen was low as well when my T was depressed. My NHA stack consisted of ActivaTe and 6-OXO. 5 ActivaTe pills/day and 3 6-OXO at night. I never got DHEA tested. My total and free T were low. Accordingly, my E2 was on the low end of normal (16 pg/mL, I reckon).

When I was on the ActivaTe and 6-OXO, my libido improved signifcantly, sexual potency came back to the same levels as pre-Ergomax, and I felt a bit better. Since I have stopped the ActivaTe though, I have been feeling down again sexually. It's been more than a year since Ergomax. My hope is that by cutting out all supps, working out, eating clean, things will eventually return to baseline. Towards this end, I feel hGH can help in the process. It has been shown to be helpful for hypogonadal patients in medical studies.

J.
 
Werewolf

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I don't eat soy. My estrogen was low as well when my T was depressed. My NHA stack consisted of ActivaTe and 6-OXO. 5 ActivaTe pills/day and 3 6-OXO at night. I never got DHEA tested. My total and free T were low. Accordingly, my E2 was on the low end of normal (16 pg/mL, I reckon).

When I was on the ActivaTe and 6-OXO, my libido improved signifcantly, sexual potency came back to the same levels as pre-Ergomax, and I felt a bit better. Since I have stopped the ActivaTe though, I have been feeling down again sexually. It's been more than a year since Ergomax. My hope is that by cutting out all supps, working out, eating clean, things will eventually return to baseline. Towards this end, I feel hGH can help in the process. It has been shown to be helpful for hypogonadal patients in medical studies.

J.
Well, I actually expected 600 mgs of 6-0XO. You need to taper off of 6-OXO or you end up with what is refered to as estrogen rebound. 6-OXO has very short half-life and when you stop suddenly after taking for for a long time with testosterone levels nearly doubled, estrogen suddenly goes up 400% to twice normal. This results in testosterone being shut down because the very high estrogen levels.

Here is another thread where I discuss in detail:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/50135-post-cycle-therapy-1-ad-cycle.html


Now I think you should tell me your exact PCT doses that seemed to leave you with depressed testosterone.
 

joeyg

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Well, I actually expected 600 mgs of 6-0XO. You need to taper off of 6-OXO or you end up with what is refered to as estrogen rebound. 6-OXO has very short half-life and when you stop suddenly after taking for for a long time with testosterone levels nearly doubled, estrogen suddenly goes up 400% to twice normal. This results in testosterone being shut down because the very high estrogen levels.

Here is another thread where I discuss in detail:

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/50135-post-cycle-therapy-1-ad-cycle.html


Now I think you should tell me your exact PCT doses that seemed to leave you with depressed testosterone.
I did taper the 6-OXO. I reduced dosage the last week and tapered it down to zero. My PCT with Ergomax was solid: Clomid for first week and then Nolvadex for five weeks. That didn't do anything. So then a couple months down the line, I tried again Clomid, tribulus, DHEA, cabergoline (my blood test showed elevated prolactin), and toremifene. Here is the thread: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/45393-shutdown-help-needed-dr-d.html

Also, I had my blood pressure measured yesterday. It is 120/84. It has _never_ been higher than 120/70. Cardiologist said with exercise and diet it should reduce and that it wasn't worrisome at this point. But he did note it was odd since I have never had high blood pressure ... ever. Is this related with my other issue?

J.
 
Werewolf

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I did taper the 6-OXO. I reduced dosage the last week and tapered it down to zero. My post cycle therapy with Ergomax was solid: Clomid for first week and then Nolvadex for five weeks. That didn't do anything. So then a couple months down the line, I tried again Clomid, tribulus, DHEA, cabergoline (my blood test showed elevated prolactin), and toremifene. Here is the thread: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/45393-shutdown-help-needed-dr-d.html

Also, I had my blood pressure measured yesterday. It is 120/84. It has _never_ been higher than 120/70. Cardiologist said with exercise and diet it should reduce and that it wasn't worrisome at this point. But he did note it was odd since I have never had high blood pressure ... ever. Is this related with my other issue?

J.
The blood pressure is probably just flustration or you had elevated heart beat from not being at resting rate.

I don't understand why DR D didn't stop HCG once your balls came up to size. HCG is actually suppressive to natural HPTA system. You hate ADT, but you should have used it anyway. Now you do have the choice of Rebound Reloaded.

The blood test show your estrogen levels were suppressed which is probably why HCG was tried. Not sure that further suppressing your estragen levels to raise your testosterone, but you did say that that you libido was up while you were on 6-OXO indicating that it does probably raise testosterone by suppressing estrogen.

ADT is one of the very best testosterone raisers since it works on both sides of the HPTA both by blocking testosterone affect and by lowering estrogen. It is this blocking the testosterone effect that causes libido issues when using doses above 50mgs.

I'm confused too at this point. I would have had you do the the HCG for week or 2, while taking 25 to 50 mgs of ADT for 4 weeks. I would not tried all the other things you were trying. You could try Rebound Reload instead, but it isn't has good has ADT for this kind of problem. Rebound Reloaded is better than what you tried.

I think actually want IGF-1R3 instead HGH. IGF-1R3 is faster at helping libido. They help each other so both is fine. IGF-1R3 and PGH-T is also good.
 

joeyg

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Thanks. I am uncomfortable with IGF because I think the chances of me f#cking it up are higher since the side effects are worse. Am I mistaken? Also, IGF is IM versus hGH, which is subQ. I am not very comfortable with IM injections.

What do you think? Also, should I try the true NHA stack (ActivaTe + RR)? By the way, I think the high BP might be due to my using Targex-1, the topical fat loss aid. It contains glycyrrhetinic acid, which I just researched is known to cause hypertension in high doses. I have quit using it and will get remeasured later this week.

J.
 
Werewolf

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Thanks. I am uncomfortable with IGF because I think the chances of me f#cking it up are higher since the side effects are worse. Am I mistaken? Also, IGF is IM versus hGH, which is subQ. I am not very comfortable with IM injections.

What do you think? Also, should I try the true NHA stack (ActivaTe + RR)? By the way, I think the high BP might be due to my using Targex-1, the topical fat loss aid. It contains glycyrrhetinic acid, which I just researched is known to cause hypertension in high doses. I have quit using it and will get remeasured later this week.

J.
How long since your last NHA cycle?

It appears FAQ thread that RR is supposed to be tapered off which is different from ATD..

If you do this stack then blood tests while on would good to see what your testosterone levels are. ActivaTE is slightly suppressive to total Test so make sure you stop it before the RR. It is the RR that probably needed. It appear it is strong and two may all that is needed.

IGF-1R3 also comes has an oral called Oratrophin.

Still think there may a cause we are missing. If you go from getting laid once a week (optimum) to a live in girl friend or wife (many times a week) that could be 25% drop (nature's way of reducing your wondering mind). Sun twice a week for 20 minutes on your lower back will bring it up 15% or so. Constant heavy stress? Has the amount of arobic exercise gone down drasticly? Any major health issues come up besides the reduced test levels?
 
Beelzebub

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if you're not taking at least test also, don't waste your money with GH solo. also, IGF doesn't have to be IM, sub-q works just as well. it's a systematic effect, not localized. as for the age comments, you won't really know how you respond to GH until you try it. everyone is different. i didn't get sh!t from it but i know 21-22 y/o's that experience incredible gains from it. judge for yourself.
 

joeyg

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How long since your last NHA cycle?

It appears FAQ thread that RR is supposed to be tapered off which is different from ATD..

If you do this stack then blood tests while on would good to see what your testosterone levels are. ActivaTE is slightly suppressive to total Test so make sure you stop it before the RR. It is the RR that probably needed. It appear it is strong and two may all that is needed.

IGF-1R3 also comes has an oral called Oratrophin.

Still think there may a cause we are missing. If you go from getting laid once a week (optimum) to a live in girl friend or wife (many times a week) that could be 25% drop (nature's way of reducing your wondering mind). Sun twice a week for 20 minutes on your lower back will bring it up 15% or so. Constant heavy stress? Has the amount of arobic exercise gone down drasticly? Any major health issues come up besides the reduced test levels?
I have a live-in girlfriend. Sex life has gone down the tubes recently. I haven't done any serious aerobic exercise in almost a year; I am an investment banker that works 14-15 hours/day.

J.
 
Werewolf

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I have a live-in girlfriend. Sex life has gone down the tubes recently. I haven't done any serious aerobic exercise in almost a year; I am an investment banker that works 14-15 hours/day.

J.
Actually once a week for sex is better than none or more. Highest test levels on 7th day.

Working 14 to 15 hours a day is going to surely destroy you and your soul. You got to start taking better care of your self. Think about being your own best friend. Would you want to have your best friend living like that? More fun, less work and some fun aerobics would probably help. More sleep probably too. On relationship side you might want to read a book called Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus. I give it as part of wedding present to my friends that get married. I even give it sooner now. It has saved at least one marriage so far that I know of so far and looks like it going to another friend married. It always improves communication between a man and women.

On the supplement side you probably need a cortisol reducer.
I guessing your stress is high and your cortisol is though the roof. If you aren't stressed out it would be a miracle.
 
Werewolf

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Things to think about: 8 hours in to your work day take 2-Valerian root pills (for stress relief), a B-vitamin (depleted from morning vitamins) and some L-Phenylalanine (for the brain to keep thinking).

Lean Extreme is an example of a cortisol reducer. Maybe some ZMA before bed.
 

joeyg

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Things to think about: 8 hours in to your work day take 2-Valerian root pills (for stress relief), a B-vitamin (depleted from morning vitamins) and some L-Phenylalanine (for the brain to keep thinking).

Lean Extreme is an example of a cortisol reducer. Maybe some ZMA before bed.
Thanks Werewolf. I know I need to get my physical health in gear. Need to better balance work and taking care of myself. This is what I am thinking going forward along with starting a strong cardio regime and keeping up the lifting:

1. hGH starting at 2 IUs/day 5 days on/2 days off and increasing up to 4 IUs/day over time.
2. Starting a NHA stack (ActivaTe, RR, and PowerFULL) and tapering the RR.
3. Taking Lean Xtreme as well to control cortisol (as you mentioned).
4. Taking hCG at low doses (250 IUs) twice/week or 500 IUs once/week to keep natty T up while on NHA and tapering along with the RR. I am prone to ball shrinkage so figure this might help.
5. Seeing how this goes for a month or two and then adding real gear (test e. or something) and perhaps IGF-1.

How do you feel about that?

J.
 
Werewolf

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Thanks Werewolf. I know I need to get my physical health in gear. Need to better balance work and taking care of myself. This is what I am thinking going forward along with starting a strong cardio regime and keeping up the lifting:

1. hGH starting at 2 IUs/day 5 days on/2 days off and increasing up to 4 IUs/day over time.
2. Starting a NHA stack (ActivaTe, RR, and PowerFULL) and tapering the RR.
3. Taking Lean Xtreme as well to control cortisol (as you mentioned).
4. Taking hCG at low doses (250 IUs) twice/week or 500 IUs once/week to keep natty T up while on NHA and tapering along with the RR. I am prone to ball shrinkage so figure this might help.
5. Seeing how this goes for a month or two and then adding real gear (test e. or something) and perhaps IGF-1.

How do you feel about that?

J.
Taking HCG doesn't keep natty test up. It suppresses it big time. What is does is keep your balls up to size when natty test is suppresed by steriods. You could do one time dose to get the balls up to size in the beginning after that it is counter productive. I would recommend you just save it for a cycle use it then to keep your balls up to size.

HCG does raise test in blood stream temporarily, but it suppresses the Natty driven testosterone output big time.

When you are on RR your balls will double in size and testosterone ouput. 2 RR a day is probably enough.

Taking the GH is fine, but you may want to wait and see what RR does for you first.
 

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Taking HCG doesn't keep natty test up. It suppresses it big time. What is does is keep your balls up to size when natty test is suppresed by steriods. You could do one time dose to get the balls up to size in the beginning after that it is counter productive. I would recommend you just save it for a cycle use it then to keep your balls up to size.

HCG does raise test in blood stream temporarily, but it suppresses the Natty driven testosterone output big time.

When you are on RR your balls will double in size and testosterone ouput. 2 RR a day is probably enough.

Taking the GH is fine, but you may want to wait and see what RR does for you first.
How do you feel about running the RR with ActivaTe and P'FULL? What would you recommend re: dosing for a guy in my sh#ty situation?

I guess I can save the hCG in case I need it after the cycle.

J.
 
eisenmench

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Werewolf - Do you reccomend 50mg ATD (ED?) for TRT Estrogen control during a long term(permanent) test supp. regimine instead of arimidex (25mg 3X/week)? I am on 200mg test cyp/weel,also HGH 2iu 2X/day 6/1. And as I said, arimidex 25mg 3X/week. What brand, company makes what you reccomend?
 
eisenmench

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Nolvedex XT has an ingrediants list that looks suspiciously like the ATD 3-OHAT propritory mix.
 
Werewolf

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How do you feel about running the RR with ActivaTe and P'FULL? What would you recommend re: dosing for a guy in my sh#ty situation?

I guess I can save the hCG in case I need it after the cycle.

J.
The ActivaTe and Powerfull are good additions.

The ActivaTE though slightly suppressive to Total test will take your free from about 200% to close 300% of normal. It is free Test that builds muscles. It also lower DHT so it makes it easier on the hair line.

I take about 6 ActivaTe a day (4 to 8 is good). You want spread across day.

A couple ActivaTe before a workout will give you a good energy boost.

Somebody else is going to need to help you with Powerfull.

RR is strong so 2 a day is good, but take three if you want to. Pushing your estrogen really low is the best for body, but people have been taking 3 without big problems. 3 is at least as strong a six 6-OXO.

Your current life style does not support a natty test of 800without chemical help. The lean extreme will help reduce some of the chemical pressure reducing your Natty test.

You need adjust your lifestyle if you want a natty test of 800 again. Good luck

NHA doesn't require a PCT or HCG after it. you come off with big balls and high test output. Save the HCG for suppresive cycle.
 
Werewolf

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Werewolf - Do you recommend 50mg ATD (ED?) for TRT Estrogen control during a long term(permanent) test supp. regimine instead of arimidex (25mg 3X/week)? I am on 200mg test cyp/weel,also HGH 2iu 2X/day 6/1. And as I said, arimidex 25mg 3X/week. What brand, company makes what you reccomend?
I'm sorry I don't know arimidex so I can not compare. Rebound XT is what I take, but there are generics.
I think 25mgs of ATD ED would be plenty to keep estrogen under control. Since you are not really higher than normal test levels you may not need any or 25 mgs EOD. I think you should take this question to Dr D.

Assuming you still have some Natty test output, then taking ADT is going to raise the Natty test output so your total testosterone levels will go up and you may get blood test to see how much. ADT not only reduces estrogen, but also reduces the shutdown effect from the external testosterone at the HPTA control.
 

joeyg

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The ActivaTe and Powerfull are good additions.

The ActivaTE though slightly suppressive to Total test will take your free from about 200% to close 300% of normal. It is free Test that builds muscles. It also lower DHT so it makes it easier on the hair line.

I take about 6 ActivaTe a day (4 to 8 is good). You want spread across day.

A couple ActivaTe before a workout will give you a good energy boost.

Somebody else is going to need to help you with Powerfull.

RR is strong so 2 a day is good, but take three if you want to. Pushing your estrogen really low is the best for body, but people have been taking 3 without big problems. 3 is at least as strong a six 6-OXO.

Your current life style does not support a natty test of 800without chemical help. The lean extreme will help reduce some of the chemical pressure reducing your Natty test.

You need adjust your lifestyle if you want a natty test of 800 again. Good luck

NHA doesn't require a post cycle therapy or HCG after it. you come off with big balls and high test output. Save the HCG for suppresive cycle.
Thanks so much. Do I need to taper ActivaTe or RR? Reason I ask is last time, I maybe didn't taper 6-OXO enough (and I didn't taper ActivaTe at all) so that lead to problems after cycle.

J.
 
eisenmench

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Novedex XT contains ATD. Also bulk nutrition sells a dermal ATD>
 
Werewolf

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How do you feel about running the RR with ActivaTe and P'FULL? What would you recommend re: dosing for a guy in my sh#ty situation?

I guess I can save the hCG in case I need it after the cycle.

J.
HCG is for using while on a long suppresive cycle to keep ball size up, not after cycle.
 
Werewolf

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Thanks so much. Do I need to taper ActivaTe or RR? Reason I ask is last time, I maybe didn't taper 6-OXO enough (and I didn't taper ActivaTe at all) so that lead to problems after cycle.

J.
I don't taper ActivaTE, some people do and it doesn't hurt. Currently it appears you can go about 7 weeks max on ActivaTE. You still want to be taking RR for a week after you stop the ActivaTE. You can be tapering during that week. You should give your body three to four days to adjust to new lower dose. Longer is fine.

You may need the Lean Extreme until you get the mental and physical stress down in your life. You may also want 1 RR ED or EOD too.

You probably want to have a blood test like 4 weeks into the NHA run to make sure your testosterone did come up where it should. It should go way over 800. If goes nice and high it is very good sign.
 
Werewolf

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I have seen some of your other post and think this is the fat burner you are looking for.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/universalkits/41958-p-ght-updates-feedback.html

Lowers blood pressure and helps you sleep good. Generally makes you feel better with benefit of reducing fat.

5 days on, two off. Take the entire 5th week off. Repeat

Currently I am running in sync with Oratrophin in a two on, one off pattern. See Bottom of page 7 for details.

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/igf-1-gh-slin/47476-my-newest-research-eod-e3d-inj-7.html
 

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Interesting. I just bought one kit of Jino hGH. Can I run this along side it or should I just back off and give the GH a shot? Also, I plan to order the LX, RR, and ActivaTe soon. Still trying to nail down a good cycle to use with the gH. Any suggestions would be very welcome. I really appreciate everything Werewolf. I'll be sure to let you know how my little hamster is doing.

J.
 

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Since I already ordered the gH, would taking pGH be overkill? I would rather use the subQ "oral" version rather than transdermal since I will be pinning gH anyway.

J.
 
Werewolf

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No need for PGH-T if you already taking HGH. The 5 on and 2 off protocol would also able HGH. Also the 5th week off too. It helps keeps the T3 and IGF-1 levels up for weight loss which I think is what you are looking for.
 

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Will do. The hGH should arrive this week. Will keep you all updated. Thanks, Werewolf.

J.
 

joeyg

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In addition to NHA stack (RR + ActivaTe), I am thinking of adding Jungle Warfare to the mix. How do you feel about that, Werewolf and others?

J.
 
eisenmench

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HCG is for using while on a long suppresive cycle to keep ball size up, not after cycle.
HCG and clomid are both used as PCT to get endo test going again after steriod cycle suppression.
 

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That is the old way to use HCG.

Now, HCG is recommended during the cycle to keep the testes going, so when PCT comes, they are ready to produce test when natural LH levels restore.

Taking HCG post cycle is a bad idea - because it will suppress endogenous LH, slowing HPTA recovery.
 
eisenmench

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Snake Oil

Hi all,

I am 5'11" tall, 24 y.o., about 210 lbs, and ~16% body fat. After a bunch of research, I have decided to give hGH a go. I will be buying Jinotropin. I am aiming for fat loss and a little muscle mass gain. Currently, I plan to use 4 IUs 5/2 days on/off. So I will be going through about 20 IUs/week. Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, or criticisms? Besides the hGH, I will be eating plenty of protein, taking a good multi, and EFAs. I want to isolate the effect of hGH before anything substantial (e.g., test). Look forward to hearing from you.

J.
Joey I think that there are so many new items mentioned here that most people cannot keep up with them or the side effects or positive effects if any. I see new products come up as the answer to so many problems that it is mind boggeling. Check on the sites that sell this stuff and read the opinions of users that have tried the stuff. Take even that with a little scepticism. Ratings for new supps are subjective anyway. Tried and true or someone you know for help.
 
eisenmench

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What is it?

In addition to NHA stack (RR + ActivaTe), I am thinking of adding Jungle Warfare to the mix. How do you feel about that, Werewolf and others?

J.
Too much stuff!!!! What is it you want to do? I have not used any of the things you mention, they can be good but check with users and get feed back from them. Adding too many cooks spoils the soup.
 

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