IGF EOD/Ed/E3d/ with GH

FullyBuilt

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So im gonna be using 6iu's GH ED with my next cycle and am gonna add 40mcg ED the first and last month of the cycle. Would I be better off using the IGF at 40mcg ED or using it at 80mcg EOD or maybe 93mcg E3rd day. All injects will be in bi's and tri's if that helps? What do you think?
 

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I'd go with eod for both the gh and the igf-1, that's the way i'm going to run them when i get around to it. I've read a couple article about it, and eod sounds like the best way to run them, the 5/2 method was only to save money the EOD method is to keep your body from getting used to the GH/igf-1. I've heard ppl get good results with as little as 2iu's eod. If i were you i'd run the GH at around 6-8iu's eod. And if this is your first time with igf-1 40mcg eod.
 

Rocky82

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So im gonna be using 6iu's GH ED with my next cycle and am gonna add 40mcg ED the first and last month of the cycle. Would I be better off using the IGF at 40mcg ED or using it at 80mcg EOD or maybe 93mcg E3rd day. All injects will be in bi's and tri's if that helps? What do you think?
Aside from site specific fat loss I dont see the purpose in stacking the two. GH is converted to IGF-1 in the liver, and it is through IGF-1 on a cellular level that GH does its thang. I have heard and read speculation that stacking the two would be beneficial, but on paper it doesnt seem to make sense. It's like stacking test with tribulus.

If it were me I'd run the IGF-1 while bulking or during post cycle therapy, and save the GH for a cutting cycle when you're depleted and can really benefit from the fat burning effect of the GH. Just my 2 cents.

Oh and at 24 years old you're wasting a lot of time and money on GH. Unless you're competitive and getting ready for a show or photo shoot, your $$ can be spent much more efficiently on AAS.
 

FullyBuilt

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I started GH when I was 23 and the results have been better than any AAS cycle i've ever done. Maybe I had low gh levels to begin with, but i'll never do another aas cycle without gh. I was able to get fat in the past, and now at only 2iu's ED I can eat whatever I want and no gain fat. I always stay full and hard and dieting is a breeze. I love GH. Now on my bulker I was gonna add the IGF b/c i heard the combo yeilds much better results.
 

Rocky82

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I started GH when I was 23 and the results have been better than any anabolic steroids cycle i've ever done. Maybe I had low gh levels to begin with, but i'll never do another anabolic steroids cycle without gh. I was able to get fat in the past, and now at only 2iu's ED I can eat whatever I want and no gain fat. I always stay full and hard and dieting is a breeze. I love GH. Now on my bulker I was gonna add the IGF b/c i heard the combo yeilds much better results.
Fair enough bro, whatever works for you. Just remember what you said there. Dont let anyone talk you out of it. You were lucky to find a combo that works for you at an early stage, so stick with it. AS far as combining with IGF, give it a shot.
 

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Hey there, Im on wk 4 igflr3 e3d. My first cycle was ed. I have to say my appetite has increased with each week. Im going to end on wk 4 and take to weeks off. I am going to start a cycle for lean mass and cuts, looks like zol with activate, rebound xt. I just want a little bit more size but defffinitly looking for more cutting. I ve been pleased with my gains on igflr3 alone. Deffinitly noticable. Diet has helped too.
 

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Does anybody have any knowledge of dhea with igf1. I very knowledgable of both but curious about them together in a cycle.
 
LakeMountD

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With the IGF-1 I would do more like 40mcg E3D and the GH EOD. That is just me personally.

No point in down regulating those IGF-1R's by injecting it ED.
 
Beelzebub

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just to throw this in the mix.

i've tried IGF three times. first two were mediocre gains and i was dosing it at 40mcg's both times for 25 days straight using the IM method. the third time, i experimented with the palumbo protocol which calls for low dosages (11-20mcg's) ED taken PWO sub-q (injection times are debatable though). anyhoo, the third experiment provided far superior gains than the first two so the low dose method is definately worth acknowledging. the basic theory behind it is when you take greater doses, your body stops responding to it, within a week or so. however, with lower doses, this doesn't happen and you are able to have consistent, yet remarkable, gains throughout the cycle.

note: first two times were premixed solution from a reputable company. third was a powder that i reconstituted myself before use. also, to repeat, i used IM the first two times, and sub-q the third time.

just sharing my observations.
 
LakeMountD

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just to throw this in the mix.

i've tried IGF three times. first two were mediocre gains and i was dosing it at 40mcg's both times for 25 days straight using the IM method. the third time, i experimented with the palumbo protocol which calls for low dosages (11-20mcg's) ED taken PWO sub-q (injection times are debatable though). anyhoo, the third experiment provided far superior gains than the first two so the low dose method is definately worth acknowledging. the basic theory behind it is when you take greater doses, your body stops responding to it, within a week or so. however, with lower doses, this doesn't happen and you are able to have consistent, yet remarkable, gains throughout the cycle.

note: first two times were premixed solution from a reputable company. third was a powder that i reconstituted myself before use. also, to repeat, i used IM the first two times, and sub-q the third time.

just sharing my observations.

Exactly, which goes back to my article on endocytosis. Its all about downregulation my friend. Thats why E3D is optimal.
 
Beelzebub

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Exactly, which goes back to my article on endocytosis. Its all about downregulation my friend. Thats why E3D is optimal.
i will add this. IMO, it's too early to tell what is optimal for IGF. experiment around and figure it out. there's a few out there that didn't notice **** from it until they took 100mcg's plus ED.
 

FullyBuilt

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With the IGF-1 I would do more like 40mcg E3D and the GH EOD. That is just me personally.

No point in down regulating those IGF-1R's by injecting it ED.

I think im gonna go with the GH ED b/c its so expensive and I wouldnt wanna waste it by using 12iu's EOD oppesed to 6iu's ED which worked very well for me last time, but with the IGF I ws gonna do 40mcg ED but I may try the E3D at 100-120mcg's, but im only planning on running IGF for the first and last month of my cycle, so is it worth using E3d if only on for 30days at a time?
 

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I think im gonna go with the GH ED b/c its so expensive and I wouldnt wanna waste it by using 12iu's EOD oppesed to 6iu's ED which worked very well for me last time, but with the IGF I ws gonna do 40mcg ED but I may try the E3D at 100-120mcg's, but im only planning on running IGF for the first and last month of my cycle, so is it worth using E3d if only on for 30days at a time?
FullyBuilt,

Did you just take hGH alone when you had good results? What was your dosage and dosing protocol? I am thinking of going on it solo to test out the benefits. Maybe add test or IGF-1 later. I was thinking 4 IUs/day 5 on/2 off. Suggestions?

J.
 

FullyBuilt

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FullyBuilt,

Did you just take hGH alone when you had good results? What was your dosage and dosing protocol? I am thinking of going on it solo to test out the benefits. Maybe add test or IGF-1 later. I was thinking 4 IUs/day 5 on/2 off. Suggestions?

4iu 5on/2off is what I started with. I def recommend using 1iu per week and then adding 1iu each week till you reach 4iu's. It will help with bloating. Anyway, I didnt notice nearly as much with just hgh alone as when I added test to it, but I also added test about 3months later, so that could have been the gh kicking in even more then. I did notice that I was able to diet much easier and stay leaner, but it wont add much muscle unless stacked with AAS. Get a bloodtest done first though for IGF levels. Its only $97 through directlabs.com and you don't have to go to the dr. If your levels are high, then stay off GH till they get low, but many young people can have low GH levels naturally and will benefit on GH. I wish I got tested first, but I have a feeling mine were naturally low.
 
LakeMountD

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120mcg E3D? That is a hell of a lot, that would suck.

Beelz: I have to disagree with you on this one. People do notice results with less, but people are impatient, they think that if they don't see gains the first week then it doesn't work. As with all peptides the results are SLOW. If someone gave you hGH to take for a week, hell even 2-3 weeks you wouldn't notice ****. You would be like this stuff is a waste of money. People are too impatient. The article on endocytosis does not lie, that is how it works, and whether everyone here wants to admit it or not, that is how it is.

Personally you guys are wasting more of your product by doing ED injects of LR3 IGF-1. The only place ED injections has a place is in PCT.
 
Beelzebub

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i must be experiencing placebo effects then......

the article is interesting though. i don't believe anyone accused you of lying. breathe. i just don't accept everything i read for the first time as fact.
 

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I agree with lakemountd. E3d at 40mcs has done wonders compared to a higher dosage everyday. ED injections seems to stop working after week 3. But im still feeling great pumps and hunger, perfect poo, at week 5 with E3D. I wonder if buying the powder and mixing it myself would work better? Lakemountd do you any data to support this theory?
 
LakeMountD

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I agree with lakemountd. E3d at 40mcs has done wonders compared to a higher dosage everyday. ED injections seems to stop working after week 3. But im still feeling great pumps and hunger, perfect poo, at week 5 with E3D. I wonder if buying the powder and mixing it myself would work better? Lakemountd do you any data to support this theory?
To support the E3D theory? Yeah I made a post about it in this forum, look for it. I think it is called "My newest research: E3-4D blah blah blah". It should be on this first page.

Beelz: No you aren't seeing placebo, but as for seeing gains go out past 3 1/2 weeks or so, it just wont happen with an ED dosing scheme.
 

preston25

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No im been trying E3D for awhile with better results. My question is about diluting igf1lr3 powder myself may yield even greater results.
 
Beelzebub

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ok, let's say that's the case. hell, let's say 3 weeks is the cutoff. i can just as easily stop at the 3 week mark, take 2-3 weeks off and finish up the vial at 20mcg's ed for another 3 weeks using it ED. i understand the reasoning behind the article but i'm not convinced that this is a superior method of using IGF. it seems that the advantage is just so you can run it longer, but will that lead to greater gains vs. getting off at the 3 week mark, take a few weeks off, then back on again??? either way, i'll be trying it out with the next vial. i'm always game for experimentation. prices are much more reasonable than they used to be. ;)
 
LakeMountD

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ok, let's say that's the case. hell, let's say 3 weeks is the cutoff. i can just as easily stop at the 3 week mark, take 2-3 weeks off and finish up the vial at 20mcg's ed for another 3 weeks using it ED. i understand the reasoning behind the article but i'm not convinced that this is a superior method of using IGF. it seems that the advantage is just so you can run it longer, but will that lead to greater gains vs. getting off at the 3 week mark, take a few weeks off, then back on again??? either way, i'll be trying it out with the next vial. i'm always game for experimentation. prices are much more reasonable than they used to be. ;)
YOU KNOW WHAT BEELZ?!?!? IM GONNA.......ummmm......well..... nevermind I am not going to do anything big guy :). You still have about 50-60 lbs on me hahaha.:bow28:
 
Beelzebub

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well, that's a different subject. just countering your article with a little beelzelogic. :D

but like i said, i'll be trying it out. if it doesn't work, i know where you live.
 

FullyBuilt

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I don't understand how 40mcg E3D will yeild the same results as 40mcg ED. 40ED is gonna be 280mcg per week where 40 E3D is only140mg per week. How is that possible. So if im doing Gh ED will I still reap the IGF benefits E3D or do I need IGF ED as well then
 
Beelzebub

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the basic premise (in my layman terms) is that 40mcg's will 'burn out' your receptors very quickly and thereby making future IGF dosages pointless and producing little or no gains. that's why you'll see a lot of IGF logs stating how it's kicking ass for a week or so and then they'll see nothing for the remainder of the cycle. both of us are calling for lower doses, just in a different dosing scheme. i got my reasoning from a dave palumbo article, lake got his from a book with big words.
 

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I think both Beelz's and Lake's points are well taken. Unfortunately with this sport, what exists in a biochemistry/cell bio/physio book does not always pan out in reality. The reason being that not every test tube (every body) is the same. It's the same reason why some guys can eat garbage and stay ripped and others can add mass easily but cutting fat is a fate worse than death.

FWIW, I have most success with 30 mcg twice per day for 4 weeks on, 4 off. I stole this method from a competitive BBer on the other side of the pond.

As for combining the IGF with GH, I will have to yield to the text books on this one...GH is injected subcutaneously, attaches to GH receptors on adipocytes and leads to decreased fat mass at and around the injection site. It then travels to the liver via the bloodstream and is converted to IGF-1. So I see very little purpose in stacking the 2. Personally I only use GH for contest prep, and I havent done a contest in over a year. Besides, the strategy for use is totally different. I use GH on a low carb diet to get shredded and I gorge myself with carbs on IGF-1 and still get lean.

Anyhow, just my opinions...I think everyone needs to experiment with different dosages and dosing schemes and find what works best for them
 
mmorpheuss

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Well I guess I will weigh in on the GH theory first.

EOD dosing is getting quite a bit of press now, because of one study where it was compared to ED-7 days a week 365 days a year mind you-

I'm sorry guys, but the only thing that article told me was something I already knew. It's a no brainer that sooner or later homeostasis is going to win out.

Because of this article people are running all over the place saying "EOD is better".

Better than what?

Better than 7 days a week non-stop. That is all. And this is IF you place ANY stock in the results achieved using malnourished children in an environment where no attempt whatsoever is made to preserve natural GH production.

If natural GH production has been shown to resume in as little as 24 hours, are you so sure 5 on/2 off is just a method of "saving money".

No way, there are alot of vets in this game running 5on/2 off simply because years of trial and error has led them to this doorstep. Money isn't even part of the reasoning process.

When I see a study done with bodybuilders, EOD vs 5/2, under conditions where diet and training are 100% geared towards maintaining endogenous GH production, then I'll start paying more attention to the studies.
 
mmorpheuss

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IGF is a different story, I think both Beelz and LMD have made good points here.

The biggest difference between the two compounds IMO is that IGF loses effectiveness over time and GH needs time to be effective.

It has been argued that GH's effectiveness hinges predominantly on the IGF production it facilitates, specifically hIGF, which supposedly doesnt have the same downreguating powers that LR3 possesses? (at least not as potent in doing so)

Something I would like to hear about from Grunt or LMD, is whether or not in running GH with LR3 you are actually actively negating one of the benefits of hIGF, by downregulating the receptors long before hIGF would have done so?
 

FullyBuilt

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Ok, I always heard that stacking GH with IGF is a great combo. Now some are saying it can give less gains that just running GH alone?
 
mmorpheuss

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Ok, I always heard that stacking GH with IGF is a great combo. Now some are saying it can give less gains that just running GH alone?

I'm not saying that, just having a few questions I need answered along those lines.
 

Rocky82

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Ok, I always heard that stacking GH with IGF is a great combo. Now some are saying it can give less gains that just running GH alone?
I dont know about that, but I just dont see the point in using the 2 together as GH is converted to IGF-1 anyway. Why not just up your dose of one or the other and run them alone? Bottom line is nobody knows. Nobody here is running any clinical trials, so EVERYTHING you read here, short of a journal article excerpt, is pure speculation.

Bottom line...AGAIN, find what works for you and stick to it. Believe it or not there are people out there who have success with IGF and GH and dont have access to a message board.
 
Grunt76

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IGF is a different story, I think both Beelz and LMD have made good points here.

The biggest difference between the two compounds IMO is that IGF loses effectiveness over time and GH needs time to be effective.

It has been argued that GH's effectiveness hinges predominantly on the IGF production it facilitates, specifically hIGF, which supposedly doesnt have the same downreguating powers that LR3 possesses? (at least not as potent in doing so)

Something I would like to hear about from Grunt or LMD, is whether or not in running GH with LR3 you are actually actively negating one of the benefits of hIGF, by downregulating the receptors long before hIGF would have done so?
GH has some unique benefits that IGF doesn't have and vice-versa. Running both together is far from pointless.

hIGF-1 has an extremely short half-life because most of it is neutralized by IGFBP's. Because of this, saturating the body's receptors is not doable with hIGF-1. And thus, it downregulates the receptors much less than LR3 which can float around in the bloodstream for a long while and keep the receptors saturated, resulting in a much greater downregulation. This is one reason why injecting immediately-postworkout works so well: as much IGF-1 as possible will be shortly taken up by the muscles trained, with its upregulated receptors, leaving less IGF-1 to create a saturation effect. This gives the best of both worlds.

I'd like to point out that some people state that this benefit is extremely minimal whereas they have no clue how many mcg's can be taken up by any given muscle or how mandy mcg's the body can accomodate at any given time, etc. This makes their conclusion of "minimal effect" absolutely baseless. The same goes for intestinal growth. Stating that intestinal growth will happen regardless of dosage means that the muscles can accomodate a nearly-infinite amount of IGF-1 whereas there is absolutely no information on wether 1mcg or 1000mcg would be the limit that receptor state after even a squat-and-deadlift workout might accomodate. So any affirmation to that regard would have to be based on anecdotal evidence and experience and guesstimating. Don't get fooled by the big words some guys use.
 
LakeMountD

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IGF is a different story, I think both Beelz and LMD have made good points here.

The biggest difference between the two compounds IMO is that IGF loses effectiveness over time and GH needs time to be effective.

It has been argued that GH's effectiveness hinges predominantly on the IGF production it facilitates, specifically hIGF, which supposedly doesnt have the same downreguating powers that LR3 possesses? (at least not as potent in doing so)

Something I would like to hear about from Grunt or LMD, is whether or not in running GH with LR3 you are actually actively negating one of the benefits of hIGF, by downregulating the receptors long before hIGF would have done so?
With hGH you aren't producing high enough amounts of IGF-1 to downregulate the IGF-1R's fast enough. The half life of hIGF-1 is ~20 minutes and can be bound to IGF-1BP3, unlike LR3 IGF-1, which is closer to 8-12 hours, can bind multiple times to multiple receptors, and binds with less than 1% affinity to the IGFBP's.
 
mmorpheuss

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So the question I have then is does lr3-IGF1 administration downregulate the same receptors that hIGF operates through?

If so, this would impair the effectiveness of GH before it's time, wouldn't it?
 
LakeMountD

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So the question I have then is does lr3-IGF1 administration downregulate the same receptors that hIGF operates through?

If so, this would impair the effectiveness of GH before it's time, wouldn't it?
LR3 IGF-1 and hIGF-1 operate through the IGF-1R, IR, and IGF-1R/IR hybrid receptors. Yes it does downregulate them due to the extremely long half life. Again LR3 IGF-1 can be a great thing if used correctly, ED is NOT the way to go unless you only need a few weeks effectiveness like in PCT. The nice thing about adding in small amounts of LR3 IGF-1 to GH is to increase insulin sensitivity, which GH has a big problem with.
 

FullyBuilt

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Ok so adding IGFlr3 to GH will only help increase insulin sensativity? If im running slin also then there isnt really a point of IGF. I guess my ? is this. If im gonna be on GH for 4months(actually longer but upping the dose for my bulker) at
6iu's ED and the 2nd and last month of the cycle im gonna add slin. Now, should I add IGF the 1st and 3rd month at like maybe 40-80mcg E3d or would it be a waste. Im only looking for mass on this cycle, not dieting. Thanks
 
Grunt76

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I think that's a perfect way to plan your cycle and should give you added benefit
 

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