My Newest Research: EOD or E3D inj. could be best for LR3 IGF-1

LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Here is a clipping from a book I have been reading called 'Molecular Cell Biology', and I happened put some of it online. I found this extremely interesting, however. Although the exact half life of LR3 IGF-1 is not known, although estimates of 8-36 hours are what people have been saying (very big range). It is hard to say, however, after reading the following passage you will begin to see the reason that LR3 IGF-1 could only be lasting 3-4 weeks in most people. EGF is used as an example but most growth factors activate the tyrosine kinanse receptor, which involves phosphorylation to accomplish activation. This phosphorylation causes the cytoplasmic end of the receptor (the part inside the cell) to open up and allow gene transcription in the cell to take place. However, once this occurs it takes time for the receptor to "recover", therefore, the constant administration of growth factors, especially growth factors with half lives as long as LR3 IGF-1, can cause degradation of the receptor and continually do so to multiple receptors, eventually (usually after 3-4 weeks) reducing the receptor count enough to see diminished gains. One might speculate that it would happen faster than this, however, IGF-1 also has a binding affinity (although not extremely high) for the insulin receptor, so it isn't only the IGF-1R that is affected. This "appears" to be the reason why we see diminished gains, based off of the literature I am reading. We basically need to allow these receptors to recover, which is probably around 12-24 hours for all tyrosine kinases, and it would appear that the active life or LR3 IGF-1 is roughly 24, although this isn't definite. Hence, it would also appear that the best route to take would be an EOD injection or POSSIBLY E3D injection scheme.

Here is an idea of what the receptor looks like and it also shows the cytoplasmic tail end of the receptor and how it works.



Receptors for Many Peptide Hormones Are Down-Regulated by Endocytosis

The principal mechanism for down-regulating the receptors for many peptide hormones (e.g., insulin, glucagon, EGF, and PDGF) is ligand-dependent receptor-mediated endocytosis. In the absence of EGF ligand, for instance, the EGF receptor is internalized with bulk membrane flow. Binding to EGF induces a conformational change in the cytoplasmic tail of the receptor. This exposes a sorting motif that facilitates receptor recruitment into coated pits and subsequent internalization. After the receptor-hormone complex is internalized, the hormone is degraded in lysosomes a fate similar to that of other endocytosed proteins, such as low-density lipoproteins (see Figure 17-64). Unlike the low-density lipoprotein (LDL) receptor, internalized receptors for many peptide hormones do not recycle efficiently to the cell surface.

In the presence of EGF, for instance, the average half-life of an EGF receptor on a fibroblast cell is about 30 minutes; during its lifetime, each receptor mediates the binding, internalization, and degradation of only two EGF molecules. Each time an EGF receptor is internalized with bound EGF, it has a high probability (about 50 percent) of being degraded in an endosome or lysosome. Exposure of a fibroblast cell to high levels of EGF for 1 hour induces several rounds of endocytosis, resulting in degradation of most receptor molecules. If the concentration of extracellular EGF is then reduced, the number of EGF receptors on the cell surface recovers, but only after 12 24 hours. Synthesis of new receptors is needed to replace those degraded by endocytosis, which is a slow process that may take more than a day.

The fewer hormone receptors present on the surface of a cell, the less sensitive the cell is to the hormone; as a consequence, a higher hormone concentration is necessary to induce the usual physiological response. A simple numerical example illustrates this important point. Suppose a cell has 10,000 insulin receptors on its surface with a KD of 108 M. As noted earlier, in many cases only a fraction of the available receptors must bind ligand to induce the maximal physiological response (see Figure 20-7). If we assume only 1000 receptors must bind insulin to induce a physiological response (e.g., activation of glucose transport), we can calculate the insulin concentration [H] needed to induce this response from Equation (20-2) rewritten in the following form:



where RT = 10,000 (the total number of insulin receptors), KD = 108 M, and [RH] = 1000 (the number of insulinoccupied receptors). In this example, the necessary insulin concentrations is 1.1×109 M. If RT is reduced to 2000/cell, then a ninefold higher insulin concentration (108 M) is required to occupy 1000 receptors and induce the physiological response. If RT is further reduced to 1200/cell, an insulin concentration of 5 × 108 M, a 50-fold increase, is necessary to generate a response.

Experiments with mutant cell lines demonstrate that internalization of receptor tyrosine kinases plays an important role in regulating cellular responses to EGF and other growth factors. For instance, a mutation in the EGF receptor that makes it resistant to ligand-induced endocytosis or, in dynamin, that blocks formation of clathrin-coated endocytic vesicles substantially increases the sensitivity of cells to EGF as a mitogenic signal. Such mutant cells are prone to EGF- induced cell transformation. Interestingly, the mutant-dynamin inhibition of internalization also causes a qualitatively different pattern of phosphorylation of substrate proteins by the activated EGF receptor, as well as quantitative changes in the phosphorylation of known components in the EGF signaling pathways. Interestingly, internalized receptors can continue to signal from intracellular compartments prior to their degradation. This raises the intriguing possibility that receptor activity can be spatially controlled. Hence, internalization may modulate both the nature of RTK-transmitted signals, their magnitude, and location.

Studies with RTKs that bind PDGF suggest that PI-3 kinase plays an important role in the endocytosis and down-regulation of this class of receptors. Mutations that abolish the ability of the PDGF receptor to bind PI-3 kinase but not other enzymes (e.g., PLCg) cause a reduction in the rate of receptor degradation. Although the mutant receptor is internalized, its sorting to the lysosome for degradation is blocked by an unknown mechanism. The observation that yeast cells expressing a mutant PI-3 kinase exhibit defective sorting of proteins to the vacuole (the yeast lysosome) raises the intriguing possibility that this enzyme plays an important role in membrane trafficking both in yeasts and mammalian cells.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Excellent point. 3 days/wk is my protocol.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Excellent point. 3 days/wk is my protocol.
Thanks man. I will be continually looking into it now that I know more of the mechanism. All new knowledge will be posted here. Glad to see someone scientifically inclined agrees though.

How has the 3inj/week treated you?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Thanks man. I will be continually looking into it now that I know more of the mechanism. All new knowledge will be posted here. Glad to see someone scientifically inclined agrees though.

How has the 3inj/week treated you?
I like it better. I don't get as bloated and it works just as well. If I do 40mcg/d it plays out in less than a month. 20-30mcg 3x/wk will maintain effects for up to 50 days it seems.
 

juggernaut333

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
hmmm interesting first i have heard anyting other than ed inject for igf
so u guys are getting favorable igf results w/o the normal sides of it?
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
hmmm interesting first i have heard anyting other than ed inject for igf
so u guys are getting favorable igf results w/o the normal sides of it?
This isn't so much for the "sides" but instead to prevent the loss of effectiveness at that 3-4 week period that everyone sees.
 
Pitbull954

Pitbull954

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Keep up the good work lake..... You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to LakeMountD again.
 
Skye

Skye

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Thanks man. I will be continually looking into it now that I know more of the mechanism. All new knowledge will be posted here. Glad to see someone scientifically inclined agrees though.

How has the 3inj/week treated you?
interesting. what you recomend for the dosage then? the same daily dosage or a modified one?
 
jminis

jminis

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
LMD what doses do you think are best when you want to allow the gene transcription and then let the receptor fully recover. Is there only so much your cells can take in and still manage to recover before its overkill and your wasting product? And does more product equate with more recovery time? What are your thoughts :bruce1: bruce wants to know now lol
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
LMD what doses do you think are best when you want to allow the gene transcription and then let the receptor fully recover. Is there only so much your cells can take in and still manage to recover before its overkill and your wasting product? And does more product equate with more recovery time? What are your thoughts :bruce1: bruce wants to know now lol
I am going to try and read as much as I can in the endincrology books today and try to figure out the mechanism of recovery, etc. I went crazy reading things for IBE and AI last night and so I'm beat. But I will get back to you on it.
 
jomi822

jomi822

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
i am game. honestly with my hamsters last igf-1 cycle he continued to see results up to 5 weeks but science is science.

i will switch to EOD and see how fred the hamster responds.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
i am game. honestly with my hamsters last igf-1 cycle he continued to see results up to 5 weeks but science is science.

i will switch to EOD and see how fred the hamster responds.
If you do try make sure you keep the dosages a little lower and also give yourself a break before you start the new plan, don't start it half way through your ED inj. cycle.
 
jomi822

jomi822

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
If you do try make sure you keep the dosages a little lower and also give yourself a break before you start the new plan, don't start it half way through your ED inj. cycle.
i will run it at 40mics until i stop seeing results, which will be hard to judge because of the test/tren. i am only 4 days in i think i will be ok. i respond well to the drug even with ED use.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
i will run it at 40mics until i stop seeing results, which will be hard to judge because of the test/tren. i am only 4 days in i think i will be ok. i respond well to the drug even with ED use.
Well it isn't any different in "response" at ED, the whole point of switching to ED or E3D is to counteract the loss of effectiveness.
 
Alexander

Alexander

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Would you recommend still splitting the doses, 2x per day EOD, or just 1x per day EOD. Is 60 mics EOD about right, or should I go even lower? I've run 80 mics ED for 6 weeks with good results. Thanks.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Would you recommend still splitting the doses, 2x per day EOD, or just 1x per day EOD. Is 60 mics EOD about right, or should I go even lower? I've run 80 mics ED for 6 weeks with good results. Thanks.
Well after taking measurements of blood sugar, single injections per day were effective even when taking the the inj. upon waking up in the morning, blood glucose levels were still low later that night. The second injection obviously did provide added benefits but it is something that is up to you. It would appear, based off of this evidence, that a single injection might be the best way to go 3x per week. Just remember the higher dosage you go, the more receptors you are going to come in contact with and the more that is going to have to recover.
 

BigDaddy72

New member
Awards
0
So what do you think the length of the cycle should be if being used at 3xweek? Will the same results come after four weeks? BD
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Personally I think you could extend the cycle out towards 5 1/2 to 6 weeks with close to the same results and maybe for slightly longer. It is hard to gauge the effects of IGF-1 since the gains don't come really fast, etc.

Most gains will be seen a considerable amount of time down the road from the muscle cell hyperplasia, which the new muscle fibers take time to mature and grow.
 

stumbras

Board Supporter
Awards
0
ok i will try 60 days 100 mcg eod
cuz in tried igf couple times and doses less than 60 mcg doesnt work on me

its gona be part of my test enthante pct
i gained 14 lb in 12 weeks
 

stumbras

Board Supporter
Awards
0
i am doing this cuz i have 3 g to burn, but basicaly i have bad experience with igf and i wouldnt recomended it to anybody if you want real deal buy gh
and run it for 8-10 months 4-6 iu
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Well if you are doing it PCT just do it everyday, or at least I would, considering the fact that pct is usually only 4 weeks, with the hardest part being the first two weeks. Taking ED will still allow it to last for a good 28 days, plenty of time to finish your PCT. Any other time do the E3D dosing though, or at least try it.
 

same_old

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
i'll give it a shot LMD. it's too bad, though - i get to liking my 2x ED shots...maybe i'll just shoot str8 B12 so i dont lose my rythym!
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
i'll give it a shot LMD. it's too bad, though - i get to liking my 2x ED shots...maybe i'll just shoot str8 B12 so i dont lose my rythym!
Haha Methylcobalamin is good stuff bro :). Yeah Dr.D loves the 3x week IGF-1 dosing as well. I will be doing it next.
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
The sentence that I put in bold leads me to wonder, is this a systemic concern or local. I'm considering 50mcg E3D, rotating from bi's/tri's, pecs, and delts. I'd actually only be hitting the same local area once every 6th day. If its systemic, I'd consider lowering the dose and going to EOD.

Well after taking measurements of blood sugar, single injections per day were effective even when taking the the inj. upon waking up in the morning, blood glucose levels were still low later that night. The second injection obviously did provide added benefits but it is something that is up to you. It would appear, based off of this evidence, that a single injection might be the best way to go 3x per week. Just remember the higher dosage you go, the more receptors you are going to come in contact with and the more that is going to have to recover.[/QUOTE]
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Not really sure I understand your question but LR3 IGF-1 is very systemic and does so fairly quickly. You can rotate injection spots if you'd like but due to the half life of the compound it effects the entire body.

The sentence that I put in bold leads me to wonder, is this a systemic concern or local. I'm considering 50mcg E3D, rotating from bi's/tri's, pecs, and delts. I'd actually only be hitting the same local area once every 6th day. If its systemic, I'd consider lowering the dose and going to EOD.

Well after taking measurements of blood sugar, single injections per day were effective even when taking the the inj. upon waking up in the morning, blood glucose levels were still low later that night. The second injection obviously did provide added benefits but it is something that is up to you. It would appear, based off of this evidence, that a single injection might be the best way to go 3x per week. Just remember the higher dosage you go, the more receptors you are going to come in contact with and the more that is going to have to recover.[/QUOTE]
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Ya, I hacked that question out pretty fast. In my previous reading on this board there had been discussion about IGF's possible localized effects and the merits of sub-q vs. IM administration; also the debated need for bi-lateral administration IM. My understanding was that sub-q would be predominatly systemic and IM would saturate the immediate areas receptors and only excessive amounts would exert systemic effects. I took this last statement to by logical based on the anecdotal evidence I had read on IGF's localized healing properties.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Ya, I hacked that question out pretty fast. In my previous reading on this board there had been discussion about IGF's possible localized effects and the merits of sub-q vs. IM administration; also the debated need for bi-lateral administration IM. My understanding was that sub-q would be predominatly systemic and IM would saturate the immediate areas receptors and only excessive amounts would exert systemic effects. I took this last statement to by logical based on the anecdotal evidence I had read on IGF's localized healing properties.
Yeah I understand where you are coming from now. As I stated before, until we know more, which might be a long ways away, just continue to rotate injection sites and I would shoot bilaterally E3D. That is just me though.
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Sounds good. How does 50mcg E3D sound for a starting point for a test subject around 260lbs?
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
BTW, do you have a shoulder routine you could share with me? Your delts look sick. My traps and arms are so far ahead of my delts I look freakin' retarded.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
BTW, do you have a shoulder routine you could share with me? Your delts look sick. My traps and arms are so far ahead of my delts I look freakin' retarded.
Yeah my biceps are RETARDED. So I definitely feel you on that. I think I just have good genetic shoulders. I only do 4 sets of arnold presses per week, heavy, 1 rep shy of failure 8-10 reps
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Well, you must be really well proportioned, I didnt see anything wrong with your bi's. Maybe its more apparent in a front double bi pose. I'm shooting for 21" by the end of September; currently at 20.25".
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
Well, you must be really well proportioned, I didnt see anything wrong with your bi's. Maybe its more apparent in a front double bi pose. I'm shooting for 21" by the end of September; currently at 20.25".
Dude that is absolutely MONSTEROUS sheeeeesh. Yeah my bi's wont grow for anything and when they do, if I take time off or get hurt and can't lift, they are the first thing to go. They have no thickness, that is my problem. Kills my measurements as my tri's are decent.
 

massmonster

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Thanks, I'd be a lot more proud if it if I wasn't cruising at 17% BF. Oh well, can't rush I good thing. Time and patience will hopefully transform me from 260@17% to 225@sub10%.
 

preston25

Member
Awards
0
hello,
i finishe my first round of igf-1lr3. i did notice a decrease in response after at about week 3-4. but i still continue to read that its unlikely that a liquid form is not legit. so do i buy it in powder or what? im not asking for resources! also what is eod injection? finishing up my first round of albutarol with good results.


thanks
preston25
 

jcam222

Board Supporter
Awards
1
  • Established
This is an interesting thread. I am going to try EOD with the IGF I started yesterday. DR. D and Lake are you using IM or Sub-Q? I may try subq this time around. I dont think there should be much issue with tissue necrosis from the AA as I dilute with 40cc of BW in the pin.
 

idunk42

King Kong
Awards
1
  • Established
hello,
i finishe my first round of igf-1lr3. i did notice a decrease in response after at about week 3-4. but i still continue to read that its unlikely that a liquid form is not legit. so do i buy it in powder or what? im not asking for resources! also what is eod injection? finishing up my first round of albutarol with good results.


thanks
preston25
Whether you get it in powder form or already reconstitued in AA, you will experience downregulation if you take it everyday.

EOD=every other day
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
hello,
i finishe my first round of igf-1lr3. i did notice a decrease in response after at about week 3-4. but i still continue to read that its unlikely that a liquid form is not legit. so do i buy it in powder or what? im not asking for resources! also what is eod injection? finishing up my first round of albutarol with good results.


thanks
preston25
EOD stands for every other day and E3D stands for every 3rd day. Liquid igf-1 is perfectly fine, it all depends on who you are getting it from and we can't talk about sources here.



This is an interesting thread. I am going to try EOD with the IGF I started yesterday. DR. D and Lake are you using IM or Sub-Q? I may try subq this time around. I dont think there should be much issue with tissue necrosis from the AA as I dilute with 40cc of BW in the pin.
I do IM ,
 

preston25

Member
Awards
0
More questions on igf-1lr3

Thanks for the reply. The info previous info you posted makes a lot of sense. Im not looking for a source sense ive done one cycle already. This website supports good, legit companies! I am currious about drug testing. Lets say i have a race in a week where i know there will be testing. So i stop administering 3-5 before. Whats the chance of IGF-1lr3 being detected, especially if its a piss test?
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
This is an interesting thread. I am going to try EOD with the IGF I started yesterday. DR. D and Lake are you using IM or Sub-Q? I may try subq this time around. I dont think there should be much issue with tissue necrosis from the AA as I dilute with 40cc of BW in the pin.
Don't sub-q with AA bases solutions. I dilute with 0.9% BA water and it works great. If your IGF comes in AA already, dilute 10:1 with BA water and sub-q is fine too.
 
DR.D

DR.D

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Re: More questions on igf-1lr3

Thanks for the reply. The info previous info you posted makes a lot of sense. Im not looking for a source sense ive done one cycle already. This website supports good, legit companies! I am currious about drug testing. Lets say i have a race in a week where i know there will be testing. So i stop administering 3-5 before. Whats the chance of IGF-1lr3 being detected, especially if its a piss test?
Is it looked for? I was not aware of that. If so, yeah, a few days to be safe.
 

CHAPS

Registered User
Awards
1
  • Established
Try your GH shots eod apparently it works great like that, that's IFBB PRO Phil Hernon's method. Also new research suggests that T4 is better to use with GH instead of T3. Sorry to highjack the thread, well i guess it KINDA fits in, lol.
 

goldylight

***** Vampire
Awards
1
  • Established
Try your GH shots eod apparently it works great like that, that's IFBB PRO Phil Hernon's method. Also new research suggests that T4 is better to use with GH instead of T3. Sorry to highjack the thread, well i guess it KINDA fits in, lol.
armour thyroid is the best if you can get it.
 

preston25

Member
Awards
0
I do have a question about sdrol. Would it be effective for an endurance athlete, ive heard mixed opinions. I was thinking of boldenone(equipoise) because of the increased red blood cell activity. Igf-1 became known in the sport of cycling back a few years ago. My sport is being turned inside-out at the moment.
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
I do have a question about sdrol. Would it be effective for an endurance athlete, ive heard mixed opinions. I was thinking of boldenone(equipoise) because of the increased red blood cell activity. Igf-1 became known in the sport of cycling back a few years ago. My sport is being turned inside-out at the moment.
Not all, but a lot of AAS out there increases EPO level, which in turn increases red blood cell production. I took Superdrol when I was playing sports and although I did notice a little bit extra endurance, whether it be through increased RBC count or added glycogen retention in muscle (SD is VERY known to love carbs), but the only problem is, you have increased pumps. Lower back pumps became a problem and the pumps in the legs could potentially get painful. I was using 20mg at the time.
 

preston25

Member
Awards
0
Thanks for replying, i understand superdrol can be very hard on the liver. be tested is another issue. its usaually a piss test. welcome any thoughts there. sponsers and races become more demanding, and the only way to win is to what everyone else is doing. but i want to be wise about it. to many dumb asses lately have ****ed my sport up. anyway, low dose test prop?
 
jomi822

jomi822

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
LMD i have been following an e4d igf-1 dosing schedule on my lab rat for the past 2 weeks and i have noticed something you may find interesting.

we know that igf-1 has a very nice stimulatory effect on appetite using an ED application. i find this has doubled or trippled with an e4d application schedule. this is just at 40 mics id like to note. this is how i will be using my igf-1 from now on. can anyone else provide more e3d or e4d feedback?
 

juggernaut333

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Thanks for replying, i understand superdrol can be very hard on the liver. be tested is another issue. its usaually a piss test. welcome any thoughts there. sponsers and races become more demanding, and the only way to win is to what everyone else is doing. but i want to be wise about it. to many dumb asses lately have ****ed my sport up. anyway, low dose test prop?
there is a new peptide coming around that is more of a replacement for epo.alot of cyclists are getting nailed these days and its bs!so i am curious about this new one..cant remember the name off the top of my head.would IMAGINE its not testable as well.I think it started with an 'o' but i could be wrong
 

juggernaut333

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
bump for an answer here..very interesting...how are the other effects with e4d vs ed?

LMD i have been following an e4d igf-1 dosing schedule on my lab rat for the past 2 weeks and i have noticed something you may find interesting.

we know that igf-1 has a very nice stimulatory effect on appetite using an ED application. i find this has doubled or trippled with an e4d application schedule. this is just at 40 mics id like to note. this is how i will be using my igf-1 from now on. can anyone else provide more e3d or e4d feedback?
 
LakeMountD

LakeMountD

Doctor Science
Awards
1
  • Established
LMD i have been following an e4d igf-1 dosing schedule on my lab rat for the past 2 weeks and i have noticed something you may find interesting.

we know that igf-1 has a very nice stimulatory effect on appetite using an ED application. i find this has doubled or trippled with an e4d application schedule. this is just at 40 mics id like to note. this is how i will be using my igf-1 from now on. can anyone else provide more e3d or e4d feedback?

Glad to hear it my friend! Let me know how the results go as far as gains are concerned as well. I am glad to see the information has some efficacy in vivo though!
 
jomi822

jomi822

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Glad to hear it my friend! Let me know how the results go as far as gains are concerned as well. I am glad to see the information has some efficacy in vivo though!
i do not feel i can provide an accurate description with fat loss/mass gain due to the fact that i am using igf-1 in conjunction with anabolic steroids, including tren, which i have never used before.

i can literally eat until i am completely full and will still have a desire to keep eating. i feel the need to eat incessantly. despite my out of control diet i am continuing to lean out, albeit slowly. i would suggest that someone start a log using a twice a week application and see where we can go from there...

edit- every time i type A-A-S it is converted to "anabolic steroids" when i post it, hmm
 

Similar threads


Top