Few more things about MGF/IGF-1 to ponder
- 05-30-2006, 02:09 PM
Few more things about MGF/IGF-1 to ponder
It seems that there are two camps on whether or not to take single or twice daily injections of LR3 IGF-1. I think people are jumping to conclusions entirely too fast about this and that and they heard this from this guy and read this from another guy. Lets try to take a look at it scientifically and maybe, eventually, some light can get shed on the situation. Here are a few questions we can ask ourselves. We know the half life of LR3 IGF-1 is quite long, there is no disputing that. Although different people will say different numbers about IGF-1, I myself am torn as to what the true half life is as I like to go by scientific studies not gut feeling. I will, however, take blood samples 8 times today after an AM injection of 20mcg LR3 IGF-1 to see how long the effects last of the blood sugar. I am not saying that single or twice daily injections are better, I am just trying to help take a look at what we have on the table here.
1. How quickly does LR3 IGF-1 go systemic? This isn't really known but if it is anything like insulin (which it should be) then it goes systemic rather quickly. This means that injecting immediately PWO isn't going to help all that much considering it is going to be circulating through your entire body pretty quickly and won't have time to bind ONLY to the area you just worked.
2. We know lactosis causes an increase in IGF-1R's, that is proven. However, we don't know for how long. Some people seem to think that it is only for a couple hours, which to me makes no sense, or it could be the inverse and make a lot of sense, here is why.
Possibility 2a)IGF-1R's are greatly upregulated in the worked muscle and last there for several days. The reason that this currently seems like the most logical reason is the way the body produces these growth factors naturally. MGF splicing is greatly upregulated following exercise. It is well know that MGF DOES NOT act through the IGF-1R, this was proven by blocking the IGF-1R in studies using antibodies and determining whether there was still a reaction from the MGF, and there was. After 2-4 days the body begins shifting back towards IGF-1Ea splicing and less towards MGF, this would lead me to believe that the IGF-1R's couldn't have been downregulated too quickly since they need to still be there in larger numbers to complete the repairs/differentiation.
Possibility 2b)This is another way of looking at it as I like to do. Your body MIGHT produce IGF-1R's in greater numbers following a workout in a specific area since IGF-1 levels are lower and MGF levels are higher to take advantage of the smaller amounts of IGF-1 that is circulating, then it begins to slowly kill those off as IGF-1 levels rise back up. However, this does not seem logical since we are continually working our muscles and continually getting an influx of MGF and IGF-1 levels. Even if this were the case IGF-1R levels in the affected area still should be elevated quite high for at least an entire day, making injections on non workout days just fine.
This is why I don't see a reason for injecting only PWO, the simple fact that your body is constantly being worked and therefore always has a high number of IGF-1's in some area to take advantage of.PharmD
- 05-30-2006, 03:49 PM
- 05-30-2006, 04:37 PM
I personally don't feel there is an advantage in twice daily injections, but couldn't the "usual" argument be made about keeping the levels elevated more consistantly using twice daily injections as oposed to just one?
Also, mentioned in your post, but what about the possibility that the IGF-1R's become more sensative, in addition to growing in number?
You had mentioned that lactosis causes an incvrease in IGF-!R's, ...Now, as far as it only happening only for a few hours,.. we have a "receptor turnover" that can be accomplished in around 8+ hours (more or less),
Now, .... Just thinking outloud here..
Theres a thought processing, Something to do with the breaking down of muscle segments before repair (inflamitory respons phase), thus , in a way, killing off IGF-1R's while MGF levels are on the rise....This may act as a balancing act to keep the same number of receptors: as some are broken down, new one's are formed to take their place temporarily....and when repair is complete, or the adaptive response is finished, and the "new" receptors are created in the repaired areas, there is no longer the need for the "extra" ones that had been created (at sites in the tissue that were less damaged...)
How this supports one methoed over another I couldnt say though..
05-30-2006, 08:21 PM
Great info. Can't wait to see the results from your blood tests. Should put to rest once and for all the amount of injections needed. Have another question. How about using GH in conjunction with the IGF1 to extend the cycle length past the so called 30 day barrier. One guy was still getting results close to 50 days straight combining the two. Though I would be worried about getting the Ronnie Coleman "gut" look.
05-30-2006, 11:21 PM
********Results of Blood Test on a Friend********
Results are from experiments using only 20mcg of LR3 IGF-1
NORMAL DAY W/O LR3 IGF-1
Wake Up- Blood Glucose (BG): 90
After any carbs at all: 180
Nighttime Meal (50g carbs): 175
WITH LR3 IGF-1
Wake Up (take IGF): 90
15 Minutes Later: 90
1 Hour 15 Minutes after Inj.: 125
Nighttime Meal: 114
These results suggest that the HALF (NOT ACTIVE) life of LR3 IGF-1 is ~8-12 hours more than likely as thought. These dosages were pretty low and I will be running an experiment at higher dosages soon. Although these results are good I still feel 2x daily injections might be best to keep blood sugar even lower, although I will also run an experiment on this.
05-30-2006, 11:31 PM
05-30-2006, 11:43 PM
Haha it is well deserved! C'mon I spent 6 hours today doing research for AM as well as for the new cycle support beta 2. By the way it is out. There will be ONE more formula after this (which be the final version). Efficacy will be same, though. Check AI's website for cycle support! WOOHOOOriginally Posted by idunk42
05-31-2006, 12:04 AM
Yeah, I know your busting your balls man and helping all of us understand this stuff alot better.
Oh and dont worry, I already purchased another 3 months worth of the cycle support..............(whisper) and some cookie mix.
05-31-2006, 01:43 AM
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to idunk42 again.Originally Posted by idunk42
06-01-2006, 12:49 AM
Blood Glucose Levels doing TWO 20mcg injections, 1 at 8:00am and the other at 8:00 pmOriginally Posted by LakeMountD
Wake up (8:00 am first injection): 98
1st meal (8:15 am)
8:25 am: 116
9:15 am: 120
2nd meal (10:20 am)
3rd meal (12:20pm)
4th meal (2:30pm)
5th meal (5:00pm pre workout)
8:00pm (post workout injection): 108
6th meal (8:30pm low carbs)
06-01-2006, 07:13 PM
06-01-2006, 07:51 PM
Blood Sugar Readings
Wakeup 8:00am: 110
5 minutes later IGF-1 Injection (10mcg)
15 minutes later 8:20am: 110
1 hour later 9:20am: 125
2 hours later 10:20am: 114
Meals 2, 3, and 4 were at 10:00am, 12:00pm, 2:30pm
Injection #2 4:00pm (10mcg): 125
1 hour later (Meal 5): 117
2 hours later: 112
It would seem to regulate blood sugar, smaller, twice daily injections would be better. But I am not sure if this only holds true with lower dosages or not.
06-02-2006, 07:49 AM
LMD, the biggest question I have or at least am confused about with IFGLR3 is:
Why all the hoopla about getting it into your system ASAP PWO, but yet sometime in the morning on non WO days? Would it be better to just stick to WO days only with this? Keep up the good work, this is some good info.
06-02-2006, 09:54 AM
That is kinda what I was trying to get at. The one camp believes that, since lactosis upregulates IGF-1R (igf-1 receptors), than you should inject PWO so that more attaches to the worked area than say your intestines and other unwanted spots. However, as stated in my first post there isn't enough information on LR3 IGF-1 that will allow us to make this determination off the bat. I am not an endocrinologist either so it is hard for me to think of these things off the top of my head.Originally Posted by Viperspit
It is one of the reasons I was telling people to do 2x daily injections. That way not only are you getting the benefit of the blood sugar but you are also getting the added bonus of having extra IGF-1 circulating post workout, if indeed that is needed. Kinda covers both bases.
The bloodwork that I posted shows that even at a low dosage of IGF-1 (20mcg daily) injected in the morning will keep blood sugar levels down and stable throughout the entire day, however, it is not known what amount of LR3 IGF-1 is still circulating by then as I do not know how many times LR3 IGF-1 can attach to a receptor and still have an effect before it becomes inactive. I am trying to research that literature.
Similar Forum Threads
- By evodrag in forum IGF-1/GHReplies: 2Last Post: 07-07-2013, 09:26 AM
- By jared767 in forum General ChatReplies: 18Last Post: 01-18-2012, 09:59 PM
- By fatherenis in forum Training ForumReplies: 17Last Post: 01-06-2010, 03:41 PM
- By j4ever in forum IGF-1/GHReplies: 4Last Post: 06-05-2007, 12:06 AM
- By pjorstad in forum AnabolicsReplies: 3Last Post: 12-20-2002, 06:58 PM