lr3igf-1 low dosage cycle for 10 weeks???
- 04-18-2006, 04:59 PM
lr3igf-1 low dosage cycle for 10 weeks???
whats everyone's thoughts on running a low dose ~20mcgs ED or a hair less for around 10 weeks. was thinking about researching this on my guinea pig in a future cycle of testenan, eq, masterdrol lasting 10 weeks. would probably start it 2 weeks in and run it 2 weeks into pct. i know everyone talks about 1gf-1 receptor down regulation after 4 or 5 weeks but everyone i seen has been running at least 40mcgs ED. i would be shooting for hypeplasia with this. was thinking about throwing x-factor in with it but according to the writeup, x-factor promotes the use of igf-1 more for hypertrophy. any help would be greatly appreciated.
- 04-18-2006, 05:05 PM
The igf starts to lose its effectiveness right around the 4-5 week mark. Since that is the case, its pretty much pointless to run low doses for 10 weeks. IMO, I would run the igf during the middle of your cycle, then take a 4 week break, and then run it at the start of your PCT.
- 04-18-2006, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by idunk42
Bump good advice
04-18-2006, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by idunk42
Yeah but unfortunately no one has really run it low dosage for that long. Everyone wants to run these crazy high cycles. Personally I have been wanting someone to try a lower dosage cycle for a longer period of time. Just because gains taper down doesn't mean they should stop, there is no such thing as complete receptor downregulation, that would be near impossible. There is a possibility of antibody production which could compete for the receptor but I don't think that is the case, guess we will find out.
If you try it keep us updated bro I would love to hear back.
04-18-2006, 07:49 PM
I too am interested in low dose/long range protocols for IGF1 (more for anti-aging and body re-composition). However, I was thinking more like 5 to 10mcgs daily for 4 months. 20mcgs is a viable dosage advocated for a full 4-6 week cycles. I suppose what we need to ferret out is the actual circulating IGF1 levels in teenagers males (when I believe the concentration is highest) and try and match or slightly exceed that level. 2slow, can I ask how you arrived at 20mcgs as a dosage protocol?
I just finished 5 weeks at 40mcgs daily (20 x 2) and where I gained no size or any other ergogenic benefit I can discern, the shape and body re-composition was wonderful—and though subjective, I swear I look younger.
04-18-2006, 08:02 PM
i'm into day 33 of IGF @ 16mcg 2x/day (32mcg/day) and going strong. last cycle dose was about 60mcg/day and it stopped working before day 25.
there might be something to this...my muscles still feel like they're going to pop if i shoot anywhere near my workout.
04-18-2006, 09:36 PM
Then maybe 20mcgs isn't a bad starting point after all. same old do you have a log and are you running any AAS with it?
04-19-2006, 04:43 AM
nothing really scientific about how i came up with it i guess. cost was one factor. then i figured a good starting point might be half a normal dose run twice as longOriginally Posted by Ronn38
maybe it would be a good idea to run low dosage t3 along with this for the same effect it is used for on an aas cycle????
04-19-2006, 06:27 PM
yes, plenty of AAS. i've run 2 IGF cycles in the course of this AAS cycle (test/EQ/tbol) and noticed great body recomp effects both times, over and above the steroid effects. no big weight gain or strength gains with the IGF, but there is a fullness and a muscle quality that IGF imparts that sticks with you. it's really something else.Originally Posted by Ronn38
no log. up 12lbs, which is alot for me as i am well above my genetic limit and i weigh 280lbs (i am eating more often than i am NOT eating!)
oh, and if i can comment on low-dose T3 during a cycle: it doesnt keep fat off, it just holds you back gains-wise. T3 just eats up whatever is available - muscle, fat, glycogen - it doesnt prefer fat. why would anyone want a faster metabolism when they are trying to add muscle??? never made any sense to me.
04-20-2006, 09:10 AM
i was thinking ~25mcg's ed since the aas would suppress it, keeping the metabolism up just a bit to clear the receptors i bit faster.Originally Posted by same_old
04-20-2006, 09:56 AM
Glad to hear the lower LR3 dosages are working for you guys. I was kind of hoping they would . That is my next log as well, mgf with low dose lr3.
Some_Old- how much further did you say you were gonna run this? Hopefully the gains continue to come with the LR3, if not then I am going to attempt multiple back to back LR3 cycles with short bridges in between
04-20-2006, 06:14 PM
LMD - if you dont get my name right i am going to track you down through your IP, sneak into your house and kill you in your sleep.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
i am going to run it as long as it keeps working.
04-20-2006, 06:52 PM
hehe I do keep doing it just to see if you notice lol.Originally Posted by same_old
The first few times I truly was getting it wrong, after that I wanted to see if you would look for that lol.
But yea keep us updated as long as you feel it working. The problem is, some people still "feel" the effects like hunger, etc. but stop seeing results. Since you are on AAS like I was, it is a little harder to gauge as well. But I am sure you can attest to the mad hunger pangs!!!!! AAS + IGF = ouch in the middle of the night!
04-20-2006, 10:54 PM
I will be running the igf i recieved from crowler over the next 4 months. I will be keeping a log on AM and my dosing will be like this:
Since I am training HST style and will only be lifting 3x a week I will only shoot it into my lagging muscles bilaterally post workout.
Monday - 20mcg bilaterally
Wed -20mcg bilaterally
Fri - 20mcg bilaterally
Which would be 16 weeks total by the time I am through. I am shooting post workout into the lagging muscle inhopes for a localized growth effect. I know the claims of igf being systemic..(which LR3 is) however immediately following muscle trauma injecting igf into the muscle, the more readily available igf receptors will absorb much more than normal and by using such a low dose i am hoping to keep the systemic effects to a minimum.
I understand what LMD is saying about 2x a day injects to keep blood levels of IGF elevated. However, since the highest concentration of IGF-1 receptors are in the intestines and I would prefer for the igf not attaching to other cells I do not wish to go, I chose to keep my injections post workout only.
Anyways im sure there will be much debate over this subject for a while... But I will stick with my plan and keep a detailed log so you all will know how it works out.
04-20-2006, 10:55 PM
Dertynasty, Im definitely interested in this log that you plan on running. Once you start the log, I'll most definitely be following. Good luck with it bro.Originally Posted by dertynasty
04-20-2006, 11:03 PM
just need to find a place that sells BOTH AA and NaCL or BW I want to start monday but i dont know any fast place with them available.
04-22-2006, 09:10 PM
04-23-2006, 02:33 AM
Yeah I actually ordered my pins and NaCl from them about 2 mins after that post. However they didnt have the AA in stock but I guess I dont need it. 1Mg/ml should be just fine as is.Originally Posted by Neuromancer
04-23-2006, 02:45 AM
word on the street is that they'll have it again Derty.. it's good to have just to make dosing easier, but you're right.. you can manage with 1000mcg/ml..
04-23-2006, 04:40 PM
Anyways guys I will be starting tomorrow as soon as the pins and NaCl get here. Only thing I'm having trouble with is deciding how I want to run it.
Since I will be hitting the full body 3x a week with my training I was planning on pinning my lagging parts Post workout.
Now the hard part of my decision is do i run it like:
Mon/Wed/Fri - 20mcg pwo (10mcg each Bilateral side.)
Mon/Wed/Fri - 20 mcg pwo (5mcg each side of 2 muscle groups, ie. Bis/Chest) So it would be 20mcg/4 spots
Mon/Wed/Fri - 40 mcg PWO (10mcg into 2 muscle groups.. 4 muscles again total) ie.. Tris/Bi's 40mcg/4 spots
I really cant decide if i want to pin 4x post workout or not and if i do choose that method i cant decide if i should do 20mcg or 40mcg divided.
If any of you have opinions i would love to hear them, thats what this post is for, lol.
04-24-2006, 12:51 PM
04-24-2006, 04:17 PM
I think its a little too complicated. My suggestion is not to worry about hitting every muscle group worked and possibly forget the bilateral injections. I have run lr3 at least half a dozen times and after just a few gave up on the bilateral injection theory. Now I just split my total dose (anywhere from 80 - 150mcgs) into two shots per day...ED. The first half first thing in the morning with my gh and second half either pre workout or post workout depending whether I am running slin at the same time. Ideally I would like to do my first lr3 injection a few hours after my first gh dose, but with work and school its just not possible.Originally Posted by dertynasty
I still do have some hope for localized growth, although that is certainly fading as well. So I do still inject my lagging parts, or try and correspond with what body part was worked that day. However I do just hit one side, and the next day...the opposite side of whatever muscle group it happend to be.
In your case, where you do an entire body workout, I would just keep your sites moving each day. If you do want to stick with the bilateral injections one day pick bi's. the next pick tri's...etc,etc. I assure you, you won't see a bit of difference doing it either way.
I do also suggest running it ED. IMO, it really needs to be run ED, not like gh which can be cut down to 5on/2off for financial reasons. You are only using lr3 for a short period of time anyway, so try and use it ED if possible.
04-24-2006, 04:22 PM
I really cant decide if i want to pin 4x post workout or not and if i do choose that method i cant decide if i should do 20mcg or 40mcg divided. [IMG]images/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
a little bit of the igf is going to be left in each of those 4 pins... that many shots will lead to a lot of unintentional waste (yeah, backloading BW will help some, but still)
04-24-2006, 06:38 PM
Neuromancer, do you pin IMMEDIATELY postworkout? 'cause them receptors downregulate pretty quick...
04-24-2006, 09:02 PM
If I do go post, then yea I shoot immediately after. Even before I start to drink my shake. But I am really liking running lr3 and slin together, so its mostly pre workout anymore.
04-25-2006, 02:09 PM
Well, localized growth can only happen by pinning immediately postworkout.
04-25-2006, 06:02 PM
if anyone cares, my low-dose (16mcg shots, 12 hours apart) IGF trial ended. about 38 days of noticeable effects; way longer than the previous run @ 40-50mcg/day but still, the results faded.
04-25-2006, 06:07 PM
At what point did the results start to fade? How noticeable was it? Thanks bro.Originally Posted by same_old
04-25-2006, 09:01 PM
IGF Hunger is some of the craziest stuff I've ever experienced. Blow EQ away, big time.
04-25-2006, 10:41 PM
With the half life though it doesn't really matter if you get some downregulation, it is in your blood for quit a long ass time, which is why the two a day injections will be sufficient for attaching to the receptors. Plus there is no scientific evidence that rapid downregulation occurs. To top that off even if it did occur we do not know if it will still be able to get its job done even with half receptors. The one study I have on it showed a 50% drop in receptors in the small intestine of like a pig or something with exogenous recombinant IGF-1 (at SUPER high dosages, we are talking like 600mcg per kg bodyweight), but at the same time showed a double in plasma IGF-1 levels. So you figure if this is the case with LR3 IGF-1 then it shouldn't matter too much about receptors since LR3 lasts longer in the blood than rIGF-1.Originally Posted by Grunt76
derty- I agree with what was said above, forget bilateral injections and hitting every muscle group, i mean if you want to you can to see if you get better results, but i seriously doubt it and it might just be more of a burden then anything else.
SAME_old (there ya go haha)- Thanks for doin that study man, good work on that, interesting it lasted 38 days. How did you gauge the results at 40-50mcg? How long did it last? Still not sure of the connection on why it is fading. Either it truly is do to less MGF and proliferation, downregulation of receptors, antibody production, or some other unknown link in the hGH axis (since gains with hGH are caused by IGF-1 for the most part and the gains continue for long periods).
04-26-2006, 04:44 AM
cycle was 40 days long...gains, pumps, hunger and "coming out of my skin" feeling all tapered starting day 36 or so. by day 38, very little and by day 40, nada mucho (other than the general effects of the cycle which i am very familiar with)
i used MGF for the first 25 days @ 20mcg 2x/day (i measure very well, thank you!)
04-26-2006, 09:12 AM
04-26-2006, 09:40 AM
Yes, that long half-life. Look, it might inherently have a long half-life but that doesn't mean that the IGF-1 will not be finding receptors in the meantime. IOW yes it does resist IGFBP binding, but not receptor binding. So while it may very well theoretically stay in your blood for a long time, it only does so for as long as it doesn't find a receptor to bind to. Who's going to argue about that?Originally Posted by LakeMountD
Now how can you be so very sure that the levels stay elevated in the bloodstream for long? You can't. You cannot know how long it takes for IGF-1 to find receptors. There's no way to know that, unless you have done studies on bodybuilders and there is no such study.
Moreover, if the blood levels are elevated for any significant amount of time, it means you are overdosing and wasting product. Why? Well longer-duration elevated blood levels means that most receptors are taken up. This in turn means that receptors in just about every tissue of the body are activated through Long R3 IGF-1 (or natural paracrine IGF-1) binding.
Are we looking to grow muscle or internal organs, hair, nails and tumors here? Are we trying to be efficient or just whack as hard as we can on our bodies for general, unspecified "lean body mass"? I'm all about the former. For those who prefer the latter, of course, go ahead, inject twice a day.
Here I am not talking about longer-term IGF-1 receptor downregulation from constant activation through IGF-1 injections. I am talking about the transient IGF-1 receptor upregulation from heavy resistance exercise. It is transient and short-lived. There is ample evidence of that. I believe it lasts only 20 minutes or so, from the last studies I read about it about 5-10 years ago. I'm not finding them in PubMed, but that should be easy for you to verify this fact.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
So... YES you will get muscle growth from twice a day injections. Yes you will keep blood levels up this way. My argument isn't with that. My argument is that we do not WANT to keep blood levels up all day. My argument is that we want ONLY muscle and other workout-damaged tissue growth. My argument is that we should inject IGF-1 in such a way as to maximize myoblast hyperplasia. Other benefits of IGF-1 can be obtained in other ways than with IGF-1 and being so expensive, it should be targeted to do what it's good at, and that's myoblast hyperplasia.
04-26-2006, 04:37 PM
You can base it off of the effects you are feeling. If you are hungry beyond imagination like I was on this stuff + mild AAS then you know it is still in your system and increasing anabolism, decreasing insulin, etc.
And if blood levels are elevated very high it is NOT a waste of the product by any means. It may be the case with rhIGF-1 because of the 20 minute half life of it unbound, however, LR3 stays in your system for over half a day, plenty of time to attach to these receptors. Like I said, these rats were taking in up to 600mcg of IGF-1 LR3 per kg of body weight!!! The amazing thing is their mass grew proportionally to the dosage even as high as 600mcg/kg bodyweight. I am not saying to go out and inject massive dosages or saying that we need those massive dosages, but obviously it is staying in the system long enough to work its magic with continuously higher dosages.
I am well aware of the upregulation of the IGF-1 receptor following an intense workout. It is more specifically caused by lactosis or that burn feel. I have written about it in my past articles. HOWEVER, I haven't read a study yet that states the upregulation only lasts for 20 minutes, and even if it did, blood levels would be high enough (since you stated before that there will be extra in the bloodstream since the LR3 before it has already attached to the IGF-1R) to bind to the newly made receptors. I am not saying that it DOESN'T last 20 minutes, but provide a study that proves it because that sounds awfully short and pointless.
As for muscle hyperplasia, there isn't ONE study that shows LR3 IGF-1 linked to muscle hyperplasia. And I haven't even found a study (not saying they aren't there or it doesn't occur because we know it can) that links IGF-1 to hyperplasia, therefore it is hard to say at what dosages we will see hyperplasia. Hyperplasia could, for all we know, occur at a very slow rate despite dosage, which might be why it takes so long for hyperplasia effects with hGH to occur.
Again I am not saying any of this is wrong, but they are all presumptions.
I do agree that there is a possibility for injecting small amounts post workout and having those small amounts only go towards the damaged muscles. But it isn't really going to happen like that since this is a very systemic substance, it will enter the bloodstream almost immediately and begin attaching to various places throughout the body, not just in the damaged muscle area. One of the biggest things of LR3 IGF-1 is its anabolism. Although it is still slightly less than that of insulin, it still exhibits its effects very well and is another reason why levels should be elevated all day. And who says hyperplasia can't occur at other points during the day, post workout isn't the only time.
04-26-2006, 08:41 PM
Just going on anecdotal evidence that I have found, twice a day is definitely the way to go. I have run lr3 quite a few times and 2x a day produces the best results I have seen so far.
Anymore I also seem to prefer pre workout rather than post workout. The pumps are huge and i seem to stay pumped and my physique changes a little from those pumps. I used to think that the pumps from injecting preworkout were wothless...but I am not so sure anymore.
05-04-2006, 11:24 PM
Sorry I know this wil be a stupid question Grunt. I'm a newb and still learning my way around. Could you point me in the direction of threads that discuss those "other benefits" and "other ways" to obtain them? I'm approaching 41 so the anti-aging benifts interest me as well as tissue growth. Until a few months ago I thought of gh as just one compound. Once I found u guys, shees...igf1, ghrp 6, lr3 I'm not sure if Ill be able to reach you guys level. To be honest its intimidating. Ive been researching, but u r all on a level way above me.Originally Posted by Grunt76
My L4,L5 are ****ed, just had an Idet/disk decomp in march.
So I'm also interested in perhaps theraputic apps as well strength gains. Body recomp, injury/pain, lean mass and longevity are issues I want to address. I pay attention to your posts on any thread Grunt and you know your stuff. I hope I'm not breaking a rule but are there any threads or boards in particular or members I should pay attention to? I really miss training and my life has come to a screeching halt! I'd be so grateful...you could even pm me if you felt like it. I find most all of your posts insightful, though honestly some are beyond my scope Any response is appreciated!
ps.. I even thought pins would be a problem but after a few weeks of reading here I think i'm stoked enough that
they wont be .
05-05-2006, 06:54 AM
Here are a few threads that may help...
If you do any pubmed or bmj surfing you can find a ton of info on growth hormone releasing peptides.
IMO, as far as secretagoges go...P-gh seemed the best...but really just go for the gold with rhGH.
For our purposes, other types of igf are usefull, but not recommended. so generally when someone says igf1 they are ultimately talking about lr3. I just gave you a one on Lr3...if you do a search you will find more than you care to read about it. But start with that.
Just visit one of the board sponsors for your lr3 www.muscleresearch.com
and for pins I would suggest going to www.researchlabsupply.com
That should get you going!
05-05-2006, 07:26 AM
Personally for the "anti-aging" benefits I would go with hGH. LR3 is more of a short term thing. hGH has other benefits that LR3 can't provide and you will be able to use it for longer periods of time. Don't get me wrong LR3 is a great route to go and has many implications, most of which we haven't even begun to touch on yet, but hGH is more proven for what you "seem" to want to accomplish. Although you should give us your goals so we can better help you.
05-07-2006, 04:56 PM
Use HGH for life. at 2iu 5/2. IGF-1 is a product of HGH. For anti-aging you can do low doseage forever.Originally Posted by Ronn38
05-14-2006, 02:49 AM
which product/company do you use? May I ask what benefitsOriginally Posted by eisenmench
you experience and for how long u have used it? PM me if you like. I have researched it and there is so much info I'm overwhelmed. thank you so much for responding!
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