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Figuring out Slin

wideguy

wideguy

Board Supporter
Well I've been real slow on the draw, when it comes down to pulling out my slin pin (that is my slin pin filled with insulin ;) ) But as of 2 days ago I decided to make the step. I won't go for more the 3-4 days a week using slin and so far I don't see/know if there would be any reason to ever go over 10-15 ius a day. I've been tappering up from 4 iu's on day 1 and 6 iu's on day 2, with humulin r (however, I might switch to humalog). I also won't ever go beyond 1 month of use. THis wasnt' something I actually ever considered using but after looking at it for a very long time and weighing things out it seems to be feasable (sp?). From what I understand one of the only danger lies in not getting adequate carbs (sugar) into the blood after a shot and for the duration of the insulin's lifespan, (halflife). This would in turn cause you to go hypoglycemic and could result in death:jaw: :jaw: . The next danger would be in staying on for too long. From what I've gathered that would be more then a month, and using slin on training days only seems to also cut down on unneccessary days of insulin use. Extended use can cause insulin desentization (sp?) and make you insulin dependent, so you're then on slin forever. NOT COOL. If I have missed any major, minor, or even speculated risks of taking insulin please chime in and obviously try and be nice about it as we all forget things sometimes.

Furthermore, let me mention that I am in week 7 of a cycle that is now currently involving the following

750 test enth

30-40 mg var ed

4 mg mega trn

10 mg sd ed

I'm only going to run the gear till the 15th. However my pct will be a P-22 style protocol so I will still have fairly adequate levels of test enth in my system the entire time I'm on slin. So I'm also kind of using it as a taper. Furthermore I have already been on creatine (to complement the var) for a few weeks now, but will be sure to take it with a nice dose of glutamine and bcaa's post workout. I have vitargo on hand and was considering taking that with my fist slin shot, I'd be interested in anyone's opinion on that?

So my results thus far are kind of confusing. Yes I know it's very early to comment but I'm pretty in tune with my body and if I didnt' actually notice something I'd be way to skeptical to say it. It seems I've leaned out a bit?? My post slin shake has been around 70 carbs and 50-60 grtams of protein followed by 2 meals (each about 1 1/2 to 2 hours later) of an equal carb and protein balance. I dont' think I've exerianced any signs of being hypo once so far either, perhaps a little bit of sleepynesss. However, that's VERY hard to tell since I'm sleepy on gear anyway and have been especially so lately. I look fuller and foung that even washing my chest in the shower made my arms pump up. People I know have been grabbing on me more often (you know how that goes "Oh could you flex for me?"; "Jesus you're looking solid!" ect ect). PLUS I'm actually down like 3-4 lbs???

My fat intake is pretty damn low, if fact my overally calorie intake is on the lower side since I'm pretty sure I shouldnt' be eating any/much fat when the slin is active. Since I'm using humulin r that's for around 4-5 hours (my boy bushido thinks it might be more like 7, unless I misunderstood him). However, I'm hearing talk of some guys going to ****ing Burger King and whoofing down after their slin shots?????!!!

So here's what I'm wondering? If I take my slin shot then get a nice P/C shake in me, then in about 1-2 hours go to BK and HOUSE ****! Then eat my next meal in another 1-2 hours but make sure it's alot cleaner ie. chicken/fish/lean meat with enough complex carb veggies to satisfy my a total of around 60 grams protein and 80-100 grams carbs. I should be making gains. :wtf:
 
leaning out on slin? ludicrous........happened to me too, i have no idea why. it's funny you mention the burger king crew, cuz i'm one of those guys. allow to me to tell my tale.

currently on 600mg testenan, 300mg deca, 4iu's GH (5/2) and i added slin at 5iu's on PWO days only. slin is interesting to say the least. i was under the assumption that fat gain would rapidly occur. i was wrong. the first 3-4 slin injects left me feeling slightly woozy even after a massive amount of carbs, 100-125 of slow and fast acting, honey and oatmeal with 75grams of whey. by the end of week 2 of slin experiments, i really didn't know why i felt so achey but has suspicions. so, i cheated. following a workout and injection, i started to feel a little funny again, so i said **** the diet and went to burger king. double whopper combo later with a bucket of coke and fries........1 hour later.......beez felt like a god. muscle bellies were fuller than ever, felt lean, etc. next day, checked measurements and sure enough, waist had actually dropped a tad. so for the following week, i ate burger king (same meal) after each session and managed to maintain weight and drop 1/8" from the waist. nothing crazy but impressive considering my food choices.

and now it gets weird. the following 2 weeks, i changed the BK meal to clean food such as 8oz grilled chicken with 1 cup brown rice and 1 cup of broccoli. i was under the assumption that if i can get lean on BK, clean food would render even greater results......i was wrong. waist shot back up to where it was. pissed off and looking for an answer, back to BK, waist dropped and is continuing to drop even now. it's like the slin soaks up everything that i eat within a 2 hour time span, regardless of how ****ty. i'm doing one more week of slin at 10iu's PWO then i'm getting off for about a month, then back on for one more final hoorah before my GH is gone.

sounds like you've got a very reasonable and safe approach, based off the same readings that i used before starting. i've been using CEE as well at ~3grams with my PWO shake. and i've heard and read the same horror stories of possible insulin dependency but i've yet to read an actual account of it. regardless, i'm playing it safe as well, doesn't strike me as the sort of thing to play with but i'm just throwing that out there, it seems to be 'brotelligence'. anyhoo, hope this helps ya some. good luck with your experiment. ;)

edit: started out on humalog but switched to humulin-r. humalog seems to 'hit' a lot faster (peak is supposed to be 15 minutes) where humulin-r is couple hours til peaking, and even then it's not really a peak.
 
That's funny a little ninja told me something like that :-)

BTW, ironic that you switched to humulin R and I'm thinking of switching to humalog.

WHat did you gain weight wise off the slin?

BTW, thanks for the responce :-)
 
Over 4? Tisk tisk beezelbub, you going to be on for much more then a month? How many days a week are you hitting it up? 3-4

I'm still kinda wondering about my doseage. I haven't gotten any signs of hypo yet? I'm not complaining just kinda baffled. I know the answer to this question but, I just feel the need to ask anyway. On a 100 iu slin pin (1 ml) each tick is 2 ui's and the mark that says 10 is 10 iu's so if I draw back to 10 then that's 10 iu's of slin, which I used last night, and is a pretty good dose of slin. My measurements are correct. Right?
 
wideguy said:
Over 4? Tisk tisk beezelbub, you going to be on for much more then a month? How many days a week are you hitting it up? 3-4

I'm still kinda wondering about my doseage. I haven't gotten any signs of hypo yet? I'm not complaining just kinda baffled. I know the answer to this question but, I just feel the need to ask anyway. On a 100 iu slin pin (1 ml) each tick is 2 ui's and the mark that says 10 is 10 iu's so if I draw back to 10 then that's 10 iu's of slin, which I used last night, and is a pretty good dose of slin. My measurements are correct. Right?
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yup, as long as it's 100iu/mL slin.

how close to bedtime did you shoot it?

you may have slin that has gone bad - it happens...not sure how to test for it though.
 
some don't go hypo, all depends on how many carbs you're consuming. hypo isn't really a good thing to try for anyway with slin, if you don't get it, consider yourself blessed. as for me, yeah i know, one more week and i'm done. ends up being 5 weeks on total, at 4 times per week. i've talked to a few bb competitors and most of them say you really don't need to exceed 4-5iu's, even though most of them go higher than that anyway. like i said, i'm at 10iu's and haven't felt any hypo since the pigout sessions started. as for measuring, yup, you're right. insulin is pretty dummy proof, being it's already mixed and ready to go when you get it. as long as you see that little U100 on the slin bottle, you're good to go.
 
Hhhmmm, well I walked right into my local pharmacy and bought it. It was fresh out the fridge, plus I heard if your slin has gone bad it get's cloudy. So perhaps I'm a lucky one, tried the pig out session last night and man is BK some DOG**** food! I've been eating clean for a little while now and it's funny how I forgot how ****ty it is. Got a tripple whopper w/cheese, large fries, and a large Dr. pecker. Couldn't finish all the burger!! But came close. A double will be fine next time.

As for the time I hit the slin, I won't take it any later then 8:00 and make sure I'm awake for AT LEAST 4 hours aferwards and I eat 2 solid meals and my slin shake. Any advice as always is welcome boys, thanks in advance :-)
 
I am also running 10iu's PWO. I am tempted to push higher, cuz like you I really haven't had any signs of hypo or anything negative yet. But I really don't see the need to go any higher, especially if fat gain is increased. I really like it so far. The beginning of this week I started doing between 5 and 8iu's on mornings after a workout day. I don't really have an opinion as to whether it has made an impact or not, but its easy and with a lower dose like that I really don't have to worry about hypo sides. Plus I carry a coke with me anytime I am not around food or sugar.

Good luck with it... :D
 
Likewise bro. Just a little request for all of you on. Check back in here now and then and let me know how you're doing.

Neuro, what are you up or noticing if anything at all so far?
 
Here's some data on durations of various insulins:
Invalid Link Removed

I asked my doc about usage of insulin leading to dependency (diabetes) and he quickly dismissed it. All the reports I have seen have been strictly anecdotal - maybe it's the genetic and dietary factors (100g dextrose shakes :blink: ) that other diabetics have.

As to the variability in results for lifters taking insulin, just a guess, but it might have to do with whether or not they are achieving supraphysiological response curves. If the exo insulin is merely doing the job that your natural insulin would be doing (kinda like how ~100mg test/week would basically be HRT) then no additional gains would be made.
 
wideguy said:
Likewise bro. Just a little request for all of you on. Check back in here now and then and let me know how you're doing.

Neuro, what are you up or noticing if anything at all so far?
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Kinda hard to attribute anything to just my slin use, I am on a heavy aas cycle and running 6iu's gh ED. But I can tell you that I feel really full and my recovery is basically non-existant. I feel recovered by sometime the next day.

I can add that since I started doing abot 8iu's the morning after a workout, I feel really good and it really kicks my appetite into overdrive making gains possibly come more quickly. The scale is steady rising, but I really can't attribute that to the slin, but I can tell you it makes me feel nice and swole.
 
All interesting points and comments, thanks. I am kinda wondering about the point of not using enough to illict anything above what our bodies natural insulin resonce would be?

Hey nitrox, I'm just wondering are you speaking from practical application/experiance when you talk about a higher then psych slin dose being necessary to cause super compensation? And as for the 100 gram dextose shake? It would just kinda make sense to me as well that maybe all of the carbs one takes in shouldn't be simple so maybe a 50/50 of simple and complex ie. a cup and a 1/2 of oj and 2 slices of whole wheat bread, then the obvious 50-70 grams of whey in a protein shake?) ANy thoughts?
 
Beelzebub said:
leaning out on slin? ludicrous........happened to me too, i have no idea why. it's funny you mention the burger king crew, cuz i'm one of those guys. allow to me to tell my tale.

currently on 600mg testenan, 300mg deca, 4iu's GH (5/2) and i added slin at 5iu's on PWO days only. slin is interesting to say the least. i was under the assumption that fat gain would rapidly occur. i was wrong. the first 3-4 slin injects left me feeling slightly woozy even after a massive amount of carbs, 100-125 of slow and fast acting, honey and oatmeal with 75grams of whey. by the end of week 2 of slin experiments, i really didn't know why i felt so achey but has suspicions. so, i cheated. following a workout and injection, i started to feel a little funny again, so i said **** the diet and went to burger king. double whopper combo later with a bucket of coke and fries........1 hour later.......beez felt like a god. muscle bellies were fuller than ever, felt lean, etc. next day, checked measurements and sure enough, waist had actually dropped a tad. so for the following week, i ate burger king (same meal) after each session and managed to maintain weight and drop 1/8" from the waist. nothing crazy but impressive considering my food choices.

and now it gets weird. the following 2 weeks, i changed the BK meal to clean food such as 8oz grilled chicken with 1 cup brown rice and 1 cup of broccoli. i was under the assumption that if i can get lean on BK, clean food would render even greater results......i was wrong. waist shot back up to where it was. pissed off and looking for an answer, back to BK, waist dropped and is continuing to drop even now. it's like the slin soaks up everything that i eat within a 2 hour time span, regardless of how ****ty. i'm doing one more week of slin at 10iu's PWO then i'm getting off for about a month, then back on for one more final hoorah before my GH is gone.

sounds like you've got a very reasonable and safe approach, based off the same readings that i used before starting. i've been using CEE as well at ~3grams with my PWO shake. and i've heard and read the same horror stories of possible insulin dependency but i've yet to read an actual account of it. regardless, i'm playing it safe as well, doesn't strike me as the sort of thing to play with but i'm just throwing that out there, it seems to be 'brotelligence'. anyhoo, hope this helps ya some. good luck with your experiment. ;)

edit: started out on humalog but switched to humulin-r. humalog seems to 'hit' a lot faster (peak is supposed to be 15 minutes) where humulin-r is couple hours til peaking, and even then it's not really a peak.
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This thread is weird all the **** i have been reading about slin and low carbs after inject to gain lean mass.Everyone says dont eat lots of carbs or youll get fat,i dont get this??:wtf:
 
Well define low carbs, because just about everywhere I've read about slin use is says to take in around 10 grams of carbs per iu of slin in your post workout shake (mainly in simple carbs although maybe a mixture would be better) and then taking in close to an equal amount of fast digesting protein (whey) and as little fat as possible. I've heard, don't eat fat or much fat when you're on slin or you'll get FAT, but never don't eat too many carbs or you'll get fat.

BTW I hit 6 iu's again this morning and for the most part noted nothign unusual. I'll do another 4 after I lift later today and see how it works, not sure if I can do another BK meal as that stuff is such DOG **** I can't barely stand to eat it now that I'm eating clean again.
 
yeah, i'm done with it too, BK that is. it was good for a few weeks but i can't stand the sight of a whopper anymore. at least i didn't get fat during that stage, glad it's over though.
 
wideguy said:
All interesting points and comments, thanks. I am kinda wondering about the point of not using enough to illict anything above what our bodies natural insulin responce would be?

Hey nitrox, I'm just wondering are you speaking from practical application/experiance when you talk about a higher then psych slin dose being necessary to cause super compensation? And as for the 100 gram dextose shake? It would just kinda make sense to me as well that maybe all of the carbs one takes in shouldn't be simple so maybe a 50/50 of simple and complex ie. a cup and a 1/2 of oj and 2 slices of whole wheat bread, then the obvious 50-70 grams of whey in a protein shake?) ANy thoughts?
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I guess you could say I'm speaking from experience; my condition gives me somewhat of a unique perspective on how insulin works. I use 20-40 units Novolog/day (similar to Humalog) over 6 or 7 shots. I'm not claiming to be 100% accurate on this stuff but it kinda makes sense based on my experience.

When a non-diabetic uses exo insulin there will be two sources at work, the exo and the natural endo production. Think of these scenarios: Assume that the person in question has a natural max output of 10 units for the digestion period of a given meal. So when that meal is consumed insulin production will be at full throttle and the output will match the digestion of the meal. No prob. Say that person eats a larger meal that requires 12 units. In that case output would be max at 10 units but some of the nutrients of the meal would float in the system after digestion is finished and either be burned through BMR/activity or else stored when spare insulin becomes available. Not optimum anabolism.

Now take those two scenarios but the person takes 10 units of exo insulin at mealtime. In the first case, his natural output would be zero because the 10 units of exo would take care of business. There would be no net difference in anabolism. However in the second case the body could pump out the extra 2 units needed to match the digestion curve of the '12 unit meal' so that all of it gets pushed into cells instead of some of it hanging around in the bloodstream where it can be picked off by other processes. Optimum anabolism.

This is a simplification because the absorption of the exo insulin has to approximate the digestion of the meal, but hopefully I've made it somewhat clear.

Im guessing that if you have good insulin sensitivity and robust insulin output then to get an advantage from exo insulin use you may have to eat more than is necessary (ie too much fat gain.) or build yourself up to a point where you max out your natural capacity (ie pro BB's).

Also keep in mind that although carbs are number one for insulin output/requirements, total calories will also affect it because of the increase in positive energy balance. Adding fat to a meal can lower the height of the insulin spike but it will increase the area-under-the-curve...
 
I'm kinda tired and hungry right now bro (and there won't be a second slin shot for today since it's going to be too late when I get to the gym). However, at the moment I'm more confused then ever before, trying to figure out what you just explained. It wasn't a bad explaination, I'm just not focused right now. If you could humor me, coud you just try and answer 2 things for me (btw thanks for beign helpful here it's appreciate). One why do you take that much slin? Are you diabetic or is it strictly for bb purposes? The other would be how would you reccomend one in my perdicament (or beezle, neuro ect) use slin based on what you have explained ie. and example. BTW if that's lame of me to ask then I appologize I'm just having a hard time applying what you said to how I'd want to run slin for the results I'm looking for. Time to eat and take a nap! Later boys :-)
 
Yeah I have type 2 diabetes but my remaining output is only enough to cover a baseline. I have to take insulin anytime I eat carbs. I have found that fat calories are next to useless for building muscle (I tried bulking on keto before I went on the needle - strength stayed the same but my waist got larger). Now all my meals are basically 30/50/20 which means insulin for each meal. So you could say that I have also set things up to maximize my efforts in the gym.

Sorry for confusing, let me know what parts aren't clear and Ill try to explain. Sometimes it's hard to cover all the bases without writing a novel.

As for you and Beelz, thats a tough question. I think first and foremost get your diet set and match the insulin to that; not the other way around. As you know jacking the insulin requires you to take in more calories (carbs), that's what causes fat gain not the insulin. Insulin is just the catalyst in the equation. If you guys put mass on easily you may not see a significant benefit. On the other hand, for an ectomorph like me with limited natural production the difference can be night and day.
 
Nitrox said:
Yeah I have type 2 diabetes but my remaining output is only enough to cover a baseline. I have to take insulin anytime I eat carbs. I have found that fat calories are next to useless for building muscle (I tried bulking on keto before I went on the needle - strength stayed the same but my waist got larger). Now all my meals are basically 30/50/20 which means insulin for each meal. So you could say that I have also set things up to maximize my efforts in the gym.

Sorry for confusing, let me know what parts aren't clear and Ill try to explain. Sometimes it's hard to cover all the bases without writing a novel.

As for you and Beelz, thats a tough question. I think first and foremost get your diet set and match the insulin to that; not the other way around. As you know jacking the insulin requires you to take in more calories (carbs), that's what causes fat gain not the insulin. Insulin is just the catalyst in the equation. If you guys put mass on easily you may not see a significant benefit. On the other hand, for an ectomorph like me with limited natural production the difference can be night and day.
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Yeah I really do think that this 10iu's is making a huge difference. This week I have really been seeing things. However I do wonder about pushing the dosage higher. Right now I am doing 10iu's PWO with 75g of carbs and 75g of Whey and getting no real hypo sides to speak of. Nor in the morning using 8iu's, even if I don't eat exactly right.

What are your thoughts on going higher with the slin? Possibly a benefit or just useless.
 
I'm being an impateint prick :-) Hey nuero what day are you at in using and what's your protocol look like thus far? I must say I had a MONSTER pump today and was looking like a large american, but I'm on too sooooo????
 
Neuromancer said:
Yeah I really do think that this 10iu's is making a huge difference. This week I have really been seeing things. However I do wonder about pushing the dosage higher. Right now I am doing 10iu's PWO with 75g of carbs and 75g of Whey and getting no real hypo sides to speak of. Nor in the morning using 8iu's, even if I don't eat exactly right.

What are your thoughts on going higher with the slin? Possibly a benefit or just useless.
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What slin and what carbs in those 75g?
 
wideguy said:
I'm being an impateint prick :-) Hey nuero what day are you at in using and what's your protocol look like thus far? I must say I had a MONSTER pump today and was looking like a large american, but I'm on too sooooo????
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I am on the start of week 4 of slin. the first week was all ramping up so I am actually calling this week 3. Going to run it for 5 weeks then switch to LR3.

It looks like:

****mg's Test E :D
800mgs Deca
60mgs ED Dbol
6iu's gh
10iu's slin pwo
8iu's slin morning after workout

Really hard to tell but I really can feel the supposed synergy between the test gh and slin as they say. things are really taking off.
 
Nitrox said:
What slin and what carbs in those 75g?
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Guess that would have been helpful to include...

Humalog and 75g of malto.

Then an hour later as much lean mean complex carbs and a veggie that I can handle along with a coke.

In another hour, a big shake with some type of fruit.
 
Wait a second... you take a slin shot and all your "slin shake" consists of is carbs 75 grams malto, then you eat more complex carbs and a coke and hour later, then a shake (protein shake what the breakdown p/f/c?) and fruit?

Is anyone else just taking in carbs and no protein in their slin shake I though it was supposed to be both?
 
wideguy said:
Wait a second... you take a slin shot and all your "slin shake" consists of is carbs 75 grams malto, then you eat more complex carbs and a coke and hour later, then a shake (protein shake what the breakdown p/f/c?) and fruit?
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No, he is also taking in 75g whey - I was just asking for what his carb source was.

10 units sounds like pretty much the max for that PWO shake. The 75g whey itself will use up a couple units and then you're left with about the textbook 10g CHO: 1 unit slin ratio. You could try bumping up .5 unit at a time (if you can do it with your slin pins - I use a pen) until you get shakey then back off. Although it might be splitting hairs.

Do keep in mind that slin sensitivity can vary from day to day so if you set your dosages too tight you might find that you get hypo on some days and not on others.

For you guys using Humulin, I wouldn't bother using it with high GI carbs. The rates of absorption are just too different. Dextrose will be well into your system long before the Humulin kicks in and your own insulin will be doing most of the work. Humalog would be a better choice.

That said I don't think you need high GI carbs at all, low-moderate GI starches (oats, rice, etc) should be more than adequate and you get the benefit of some added food value. I think the whole dextrose/malto thing came about because people being overly cautious. The irony is that they tell insulin dependent diabetics to stay away from that sort of stuff.

If you do switch to low GI (or change your regimen at all for that matter) BACK THE DOSAGE DOWN FIRST AND WORK BACK UP!

HTH
 
Yeah I may try and push up another iu or two, but I am liking the results so why fix whats not broken right.

I certainly appreciate it nitrox!
 
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wideguy said:
Well I'm using humulin. SO complex carbs would be better?
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'Ideally' I would say yes. Firstly Im not a big fan of dextrose/malto. They are empty calories - don't muslces need micronutrients PWO too? Plus that stuff absorbs fast. I don't know the exact rate but on an empty stomach I would guess that it is well into your system in about 30 minutes. I question how good that is for long term health (my diabetes talking here).

If you look on that insulin chart, Humulin takes 30 minutes just to get started and can take up to 2 hours to peak. If you take the two at the same time they are not really going to work together and you'll HAVE to eat something else later.

If you want the humulin and high GI carbs to work together then taking the insulin 30 minutes prior to drinking your shake and then nursing it over say, another 30 minutes would match them up better. Just don't get distracted and forget to eat!

Anyways, all this is kinda my 2 cents. I read somewhere that the PWO window for eating is longer than people think, closer to 2 hours. If thats the case, then you are probably getting benefit from the humulin; its just that your second meal ends up being a big PWO hammer as well.

I can't really be more decisive than that. Most slin info is geared to diabetics and maintaining healthy blood glucose levels - not towards maximizing athletic performance. We have to connect the dots ourselves.
 
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Just got some humalog, big difference. I wasn't in any danger, but I did notice some actual signs fof taking slin when I used it yesterday. Of course I had, all the essential right at my fingertips ie. grape juice, whey protein, bannana, glucose tabs, metrx big 100 and an ultra fuel. BTW, no I didn't pound all those things just had them on hand and almost always do when I'm using slin. As far as a difference in body comp it's hard to call as I'm just ending a nice little cycle. I will say that I look better then I have, probably ever. My cycle ended yesterday so I'll continue using slin for another 2 weeks (3-4 days a week). I'm also adding in anagen at 4 caps a day (my bottle not the free log bottles they sent me) just to see how it works. Granted this won't be the MOST accurate evaluation since I'm using a P-22/ Cy Wilson style pct approach and high to low hrt doses of test enth will be in my system for the next few weeks. However, I dont' see why that should greatly affect the results I'd see from anagen. Not sure to start a log or not though, we'll see.
 
Once you get comfortable with the PWO shots of your humalog, try "morning after" shots before breakfast of about 1/2 or 3/4 of your pwo dose.
 
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