Need a little help here guys but this could be big!!!! (again)
- 04-02-2006, 10:32 PM
Need a little help here guys but this could be big!!!! (again)
Okay well after staring at study after study, pissed off at the fact I can't find much on downregulation of IGF-1 receptors I got to thinking. I am posting this here because I am only one person and although I spend hours on this stuff per day I can only see so many studies at once. If you see anything that goes with this subject please post it but I think I might be on to something here. Bear with me .
People are complaining that they aren't seeing results after 4 weeks. I don't believe this is TOTALLY due to downregulation. The main study I found on downregulation stated that in the intestines there was a 50% drop in IGF-1 receptors after rhIGF-1 was administered after time. But serum levels increased 2-3 fold, so this should be enough to cover most of the downregulation. Although you might not have read that study, you probably have read somewhere that supplemenation with LR3 IGF-1 suppresses nautral hGH output. hGH passes through the liver and signals the body to produce IGF-1, which in turn is spliced towards MGF following a workout. After 4 weeks I assumg your natural hGH levels would be quite suppressed compared to normal, especially at these crazy dosages like 80mcg/daily etc. This is your body's natural reaction, it can't just stop making IGF-1, it has to stop producing hGH to do this.
Okay now I am starting to get to my point. As time goes by your body stops producing MGF. MGF is what proliferates (brings in) massive amounts of satellite cells that are fused to muscle and activated (differentiated) by the LR3 IGF-1. HOWEVER, if you don't have much MGF being produced then your LR3 IGF-1 (at the 80mcg or whatever that you are injecting) doesn't have a significant amount of satellite cells to fuse and activate, it is working with a depleted pool of them, making it feel like the effects stop working.
How do I know that this is a good possibility? Well when I was taking it, I saw no difference in how hungry I was on that stuff from the day I started taking it till the 4 week mark. This means that it was still binding weakly to the insulin receptor and was still binding to the IGF-1 receptor. This hunger is different from normal hunger, I would have to get up in the middle of the night and eat a big tablespoon of peanut butter and have some milk or my stomach would be killing me.
Very interesting find here though guys, we might be able to run LR3 longer with MGF use (following my protocol of only injecting MGF on day 1 and day 2, however).
Let me know what you guys think.PharmD
- 04-03-2006, 12:22 AM
- 5'9" 272 lbs.
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Makes a LOT of sense to me, man. What we need is a few dozen guys with a few month's worth of bogh MGF and IGF to run a little experiment.
Is there a rich someone to donate 25000$ for this experiment?
Seriously though, do you want help / Assistance for something in particular?
- 04-03-2006, 12:58 AM
Originally Posted by Grunt76
Originally Posted by grunt76PharmD
04-03-2006, 10:24 AM
well, i'm on day 18 of my low-dose cycle and i feel like i'm coming out of my skin. my girlfriend was grabbing my pecs yesterday and said "that's just not right" referring to how freaky big and hard they've gotten (ditto on the shoulders - she cant stop grabbing them)
it's been 4 days since i dropped the tbol and my weight is still climbing and the pumps have actually intensified. color me surprised.
note to others: WATCH OUT for pre-workout MGF/IGF shots. felt like my muscles were going to pop. i wont be doing that again.
LMD i will be finishing off with y'alls "once every few days" approach to injections. i've been mixing it up more lately and having better results. i will continue to only do morning and postWO injections, though.
again, i cannot assert that MGF is the cause of my recent gains. if i had run EQ before and seen what happens at week 8 i might have a better grasp. as it stands i am unsure of the cause but happy with the results.
04-03-2006, 10:51 AM
"Okay now I am starting to get to my point. As time goes by your body stops producing MGF. MGF is what proliferates (brings in) massive amounts of satellite cells that are fused to muscle and activated (differentiated) by the LR3 IGF-1. HOWEVER, if you don't have much MGF being produced then your LR3 IGF-1 (at the 80mcg or whatever that you are injecting) doesn't have a significant amount of satellite cells to fuse and activate, it is working with a depleted pool of them, making it feel like the effects stop working."
LMD, were you refering about MGF or IGF not feeling like its working?......
It may just be me this morning, but I cant seem to get a clear picture of the question,.. to help look for the answer.
OH- jus curious, what good fortuine is about to be bestowed upon you in the next month or so?
04-03-2006, 10:55 AM
Just curious, your Pre-workout injections, how long before working out did you take them?
Also, You mentioned morning and post workout. If you were to train lets say bicepts on tuesday,.. does that mean a morning injection on Tuesday morning, or Wednesday morning? MGF or IGF?
Last edited by xtraflossy; 04-04-2006 at 09:44 AM.
04-03-2006, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by xtraflossy
Naw I don't have any questions. I am just posting this in case anyone finds a study to disprove what I was talking about. Did you not understand what I wrote? The reason, I now believe, that LR3 IGF-1 stops working after 3-4 weeks isn't as much downregulation its the inhibition of natural hGH caused by exogenous LR3 IGF-1. Why is this bad? Because hGH signals for natural IGF-1 which in turn is spliced towards MGF. After 3-4 weeks our body isn't pumping enough MGF out for us to grow, not enough proliferation of satellite cells.
04-03-2006, 12:43 PM
Well, I like the sound of it,.. sorry,.. I havent been able to sleep at ALL in the last few days. SO,..
I do beleive your correct though,.. one would think that maybe some p-GH (GABA) would be the only "PCT" after IGF-1 cycles.
The only things that make me questions and still want to look for proof is I beleive upregulation/downregulation is a relitively unknown area. I know you can make new receptors several times a day or something,.. Thats the thinking from reading Ive done,..
Another question I have that seems like it needs answering is the supression of HGH from IGF-1 LR3. I mean, GH is responsable for more then IGF-1 conversion isn't it?
I dont know what/if splicing occurs for the other growth factors: Fibroblast, platlet, Transforming.... Wether these are just breakdowns from GH (such as IGF) I do not recall. If they are, why would the body see fit to halt GH output all together and not regulate the IGF output singely?,.. maybe with regulation of receptors, binding proteins, the proteins that actually break down GH into IGF in the liver....(just thinking out loud I guess).
04-03-2006, 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by xtraflossy
I have read studies saying exogenous IGF-1 suppresses GH output. Would make sense, just like injecting test suppresses the body's natural test. Your body will react accordingly to how many hormone or growth factors are present in the blood. GH is the precursor signal to all of this.
I have studies (I alread posted them in the other thread like this) that talks about downregulation but doesn't seem like it is the main cause. GH is responsible for more IGF-1 output and that is what my point was. But see LR3 IGF-1 cannot be spliced towards MGF. So that means if our natural hIGF-1 levels are low, then we will have even lower MGF levels since only a small fraction of IGF is spliced towards it.
04-03-2006, 01:02 PM
Damn, I was all over some IGF receptor regulators and such.
I have found some possibly interesting stuff,.. but I lack the mental capacity to put it together now. I posted them here so I can look at them later..
IGF-1-induced glycogen synthesis was also decreased in both cells. Furthermore, expression of Shc PTB domain alone inhibited IGF-1 stimulation of Akt and glycogen synthesis. These results indicate that tyrosine phosphorylation of Shc is important for IGF-1 stimulation of MAPK leading to mitogenesis and that Shc, via its PTB domain, negatively regulates IGF-1-induced glycogen synthesis by competing with IRS-1, which is not relevant to Shc tyrosine phosphorylation. http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...ll/142/12/5226
Under normal conditions, IGFBP-3 is the most abundant binding protein in adult human serum [34, 35] but not in human lymph . After complexing with IGF-1, this protein binds an additional 85-kd acid-labile subunit, and the 150-kd complex circulates in the serum with a half-life of 12 to 15 hours [37, 38]. The 150-kd complex is a major storage form of Ireleased after the complex has been broken down by specific proteases . The production of IGFBP-3 is increased in response to increases in growth hormone , insulin , IGF-1 , and a protein-rich diet . Apart from its functions as an IGF-1 storage and cargo protein, IGFBP-3 can bind to cells and modulate IGF-1-stimulated cell growth [43, 44] and metabolism  in vitro... http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/full/120/1/47
(From Above Study) The structure of IGFBP-2 and its corresponding gene have also been determined . Its levels appear to be down-regulated by growth hormone  and insulin  and increased by IGF-1 . The physiologic role of IGFBP-2 is poorly understood, but it may serve as a shuttle transporter of IGF-1 between intravascular and interstitial spaces of target organs. It is the predominant form of IGFBP in cerebrospinal fluid
......The GHR mRNA increased in young rats, mimicking the effect of GH, while the IGF-1R mRNA was decreased in the older group of rats after IGF-1 treatment. These results suggest that IGF-1 in many aspects may mediate the actions earlier shown for GH.
Schematic diagram of insulin, GH, and IGF-1 regulation. IGFBP-3, IGF-binding protein-3; ALS, acid-labile subunit. http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/113/1/25/F1
One problem in interpreting almost all human studies of IGF-1 has been that, in addition to enhancing insulin action, it also suppresses GH secretion; http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/113/1/25
Last edited by xtraflossy; 04-03-2006 at 01:53 PM.
04-03-2006, 01:10 PM
Yeah do that.Originally Posted by xtraflossy
I know the lowered MGF thing hit me out of nowhere after staring at study after study and it makes SOOO much sense.
I have scoured through every possible study on this stuff, so it seems and only found 1 study on downregulation and it was talking about intestinal receptors after given exogenous rhIGF-1, regulators decreased by 50% but serum IGF-1 levels increased 2-3 fold, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal! Esepcially since muscle receptors are replenished following lactosis. Not to mention they were giving 600mcg/kg of body weight of rhIGF-1!
04-03-2006, 01:10 PM
In regards to IGF-LR3,
How do you know what your shooting is even LR3. GroPep the company that holds the patent for LR3, says that the amount produced is in no way enough to supply the scientific community let alone bodybuilders?
My question for you lake is wha are we injecting.
ps. I can show you the email if you'd like...
04-03-2006, 01:18 PM
Well there definitely aren't ways to know for sure. I believe what they are saying, however, is that the amount produced by "them". Lets not forget people like the Chinese who can produce it on their own, that is how most of the bulk powder is retrieved these days.Originally Posted by anabolicandre
Although, Gropep might produce things to a higher level of purity, I don't believe they are the only one who can synthesize it. Any scientist who is given the correct structure, etc. can syntehsize this stuff given the proper lab tools. The stuff we are taking could be to a less grade but I am sure it is still the real deal. The only way we could know for sure is for someone to spend 125 bucks and have it sent in for testing. But I am sure companies like IBE have already done that to be sure.
04-03-2006, 01:20 PM
I'd like to see the lab tests from IBE. I've seen lab tests that confirm some ofthe stuff out there is actually "rat insulin" which could explain the pumps, lethargy.
but I shot you an E-mail im off to class ill get back at you later.
04-03-2006, 01:25 PM
I seriously doubt its insulin since people are noticing large influxes of blood sugar due to inhibited insulin release. Plus I don't believe high insulin levels would cause the hunger that one gets from the inj. LR3 IGF-1 that I have used. I would about kill to eat and the effect lasted for well over 8 hours throughout the day, much longer than that of insulin.Originally Posted by anabolicandre
anabolicandre- here is one link in response to the email you sent me about lr3 being used in the lab
they did use it in rats here but look at the dosages. these rats were given a maxium 600mcg/day, they were diabetic and showed MARKED increases in body mass. Since they were diabetic they might need much less and they were given igf-1, lr3 igf-1, des 1-3 igf-1 and insulin, each group showing differenct results but des and lr3 igf-1 showing to be 2-3 more potent than igf-1. LR3 igf-1 i still believe is enough of the molecule to simulate igf-1 while still binding very poorly to igf-1 bp3 (200-1000 times less binding affinity than natural igf-1). I believe gropep is attempting to scare everyone away from this stuff because they hold the patent and don't want to be held accountable.
04-03-2006, 02:20 PM
See guys, trust me companies like IBE don't want their head on the chopping block either. THey will do anything they can to prove the peptide is above a certain % of purity so there isn't anything to worry about.Originally Posted by IBE
Also, didn't I tell you the good ol' Chinese would be there haha.
04-03-2006, 03:52 PM
Ah,.. Chineese Generic???
That would be friendlier on my wallet. Could have used a trusted source not too long ago
While there are some shady companies out there that will put Gonasyphaherpalies in a bottle and tell you its vitamin-1, IBE has NEVER done me wrong once. They are also an AM trusted company.
04-03-2006, 04:33 PM
Fine with me. How long until you get test results back and when do you plan on carrying the LR3 IGF-1 assuming that it checks out okay.Originally Posted by IBE
04-03-2006, 06:28 PM
Im also very interested as to when you think you might be carrying the igf-1 lr3.
04-03-2006, 06:37 PM
Please by know means am I suggesting IBE isnt a trusted comp.
I should have made myself clearer. The individual who got the negative LR3 test did not specify where he got it. And I agree that other labs most likely have synthesized the same compound as GROpep's. Im just relaying info that I got from their REP.
04-03-2006, 08:07 PM
Badass man! Expected date of arrival?Originally Posted by IBE
04-04-2006, 09:49 AM
YEah, I was refering to IGF,.... I had to stop a TRN cycle early (after 7-8 days), and wanted some IGF to help in "PCT",.. (I quoted it cause although I was only on for just over a week, the effects were comparable to ERGO shutdownOriginally Posted by IBE
04-04-2006, 01:12 PM
any chance of you guys selling this as a lypholized powder like the MGF or does it all go into the "ora...i followedalltherulesforadminist rationbutgotnoeffectafter3kits andalmost$400dollarsdownthedra in....tropin"Originally Posted by IBE
04-04-2006, 01:14 PM
Yes they will be selling it as an injectable for RESEARCH purposes only of course.Originally Posted by 2slow
04-04-2006, 01:51 PM
Once I get back to 100% from minor surgery, and can save up the cash, I'll try a run of MGF and IGF-1. Pretty familiar with the igf now so I will see what the difference is. Maybe I can contribute at least a tiny bit.
04-04-2006, 01:59 PM
Thats great, please read through the part of the article that I wrote specifically so you don't run the MGF wrong.Originally Posted by BryanFury
04-04-2006, 02:03 PM
Will do. I still have almost 2 weeks off my feet to read up on all of the new ideas and findings. Would rather be in the gym.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
04-04-2006, 02:31 PM
LMD - not to **** on your cheerios, but how in god's name do you know the way you recommend is best? people have been using LR3 for years at dosages north of 100mcg (avg being ~60mcg) and now it's looking like (based on my results and those of members on other boards) a low doseOriginally Posted by LakeMountD
works just as well and may help you draw out the cycle, ie. cheaper.
theory and practice align about as often as they dont, and there is barely any emprirical evidence at present...we all appreciate the effort you all put in, but by no means should it be considered an authority when there is no "field testing" results.
i would like folks to try out all kinds of protocols and see what works.
04-04-2006, 02:54 PM
Actually thre Mr. Genius, I NEVER advocated high dosages of LR3. In fact I advocated complete opposite.Originally Posted by same_old
Secondly, I wasn't referring to read my article based off him taking LR3 I was mentioning that for when he uses MGF. Frankly I don't need some punk like yourself, who doesn't do his research, to tell me what I do and don't know. If you read my above posts you will see I mention him using MGF not LR3.
I told him this because I have found, now, many articles that state use of MGF for a continuous period in the same muscle, like people have been doing, has an INHIBITORY effect on muscle growth due to the fact MGF inhibibts myotube formation.
So next time before you speak get your facts straight on why I said something and the reason why I said it. You don't have to take my advice if you don't want to. The information I go by isn't off my gut feeling like it is with 90% of the people out there, it is formulated using all scientific evidence (studies) that I find online and are discussed between me and in some cases my professors here at FSU (Biomedical Engineers).
Thanks anyways, try again.
EDIT: If you don't like my scientific standpoint why don't you offer some scientific evidence to disprove anything I said or actually give your opinion on something. Seems to me you are leeching off the information and giving your .02 based off nothing.
04-04-2006, 02:56 PM
- 6'2" 195 lbs.
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- Aug 2004
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MGF - he was talking about the MGF, not the IGF
04-04-2006, 03:08 PM
Not to Hijack but were you taking TST with the TRN, or running it SOLO??Originally Posted by xtraflossy
Just cause I'm into day 3 now, and I wanna know what to expect
04-04-2006, 05:30 PM
relax bro - i knew you were referring to MGF, i was only drawing a parallel - for anyone a little slow, that's when you assume a certain viewpoint based on another similar situation with a known outcome...namely, IGF. i could have selected, um...shock therapy instead. worked great according to scientists of the day, but in long term human trials, not so much.Originally Posted by LakeMountD
i was only pointing out that a person considering MGF should look to RESULTS over THEORY, just like any other supplement. correct me if i'm wrong but very few people have injected this peptide with hypertrophic intentions. it'll be months if not years before we know how to use it best.
please put away your arrogance and your self-importance for two seconds and apply the technique that everyone has used since they took their first breaths - trial and error. i'm not advocating ignorance of the clinical studies, and at some point i may sift through them all again to try and glean a better approach, but one cannot rely on them alone...that's all.
and even though my EXPERIENCE with this drug may be of NO use to a strictly scientifically minded person like yourself, i will continue to post my impressions (in another thread) for those people who care about such things.
04-04-2006, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by same_old
You aren't understanding the purpose of me putting this stuff up here. The fact that MGF inhibits myotube formation is scientific THEORY it is FACT. It does, period. That is why originally in this thread I told him to read through my article because it explains that concept in deapth. You can take it for what its worth or you can continue what your doing, doesn't matter to me, the info is there, take it or leave it.
I start all my MGF testing this coming Monday, there will be two separate tests with some controls and a way to minimize lurking variables. I am going to try and make it as detailed as possible. Should be interesting and you can look for those results as they come in.
I will be running the MGF + IGF trials shortly thereafter, just got to give my body some time to get all my receptor counts back up etc. so we can once again eliminate those lurking variables
04-04-2006, 10:40 PM
"Please bear in mind too that receptor occupancy or down-regulation does NOT necessarily correlate with the magnitude of the biological response. There are many examples where a receptor occupancy of around 10 % is sufficient to give maximal biological response. So in these circumstances even if you had a receptor down-regulation of 90 % you would still have 100 % biological response. As I've said, I don't know if this is the case for exogenous IGF-I or the various analogs and don't even know if it is known. You'll just have to research it to see.
Dr. Stephen Hardy
Biotechnology Reagents Marketing Manager."
This strengthens my case of down regulation not being the main cause of gains not being seen after 3-4 weeks .
04-05-2006, 08:24 PM
Further support of my hypothesis.
I have been asking people a lot lately the effects they have felt as well as the results they have seen throughout their cycles. It is very clear up front that everyone has enjoyed using LR3 but a lot won't use it again (except maybe in PCT) because the effects elicited don't overcome that of an AAS cycle for a cheaper amount. Although some report slight permanent changes in body recomp., most state that it just isn't worth those slight changes.
One thing I noticed when I took LR3 IGF-1 (I am also using Prop./Var/SD), is the extreme hunger pangs. I was taking it after workouts to help heal an injury and the hunger lasted even through the night. In fact in a lot of cases it hurt so bad I would have to get up in the middle of the night and down some peanut butter and maybe cottage cheese, I just couldn't sleep through it.
Another noticeable effect was the slight leanness I kept even though I began eating much higher amounts of sugars and calories. This was probably due, as many of you know, to the decrease in blood insulin levels.
Muscle gains on the other hand seemed to slow rather quickly, more around the 2-3 week mark for me. I was still gaining from it but not like I was in weeks 1-2.
Now, how is it that one can still have the extreme hunger pangs, drop in blood sugar, and lean effects of LR3 IGF-1, yet not continue to make muscular gains? Well alongside my theory I believe it is because indeed the down regulation of IGF-1 receptors is not the primary blame here. In fact, I sort of believe, now, that it is a very small piece of the puzzle. To get these other effects the LR3 IGF-1 must be continuing to bind to the receptor. Even though it is binding to the receptor, however, does not mean that you continue to grow at the same rate you did in the first couple weeks. Again, as stated in the beginning of this thread, it is probably due to the inhibition of natural MGF expression, which, without the proper satellite cell "pool" for the IGF-1 to differentiate, you just aren't going to grow as fast.
Anyone out there with a blood sugar monitor and some LR3 IGF-1, I would love you if you took periodic tests of your blood sugar twice per week for the entire 3-4 weeks you take your LR3, this could give us insite to how the LR3 is working in our bodies.
Last edited by LakeMountD; 04-07-2006 at 12:59 AM.
04-05-2006, 08:44 PM
Well, I have 2mg of MGF and I'm going to pick up some IGF and PGF2a(making a transdermal) along with possibly the clen/ketotifen combo. It'll be a cutting/recomp bridge between PH cycles.
I'll post a log when I get there.
04-05-2006, 08:45 PM
i have one, and i am still in the normal range during IGF cycles....but then again, it's unusual for a person with blood glucose issues to go TRULY hypo, it just tends to hang in the low end (<90 for me)Originally Posted by LakeMountD
04-05-2006, 08:48 PM
No no thats perfect, I just want to see how sustained it is over time. Say you see a 20 point drop when you first start using, I want to see if you maintain that or if it goes down as time goes by or up. Just let me know .Originally Posted by same_old
You mind tell me what your exact dosage scheme is as wel as the time of day you plan on doing of each?Originally Posted by fedaykin
04-09-2006, 04:33 PM
The MGF will be taken post workout with IGF on wednesday and thurdays. 30mcg each Bicep (~6:00 pm)Originally Posted by LakeMountD
IGF: 20mcg morning and pwo all 7 days
PGF2A: morning(pre-breakfast), lunch and post supper(to avoid the possibility of hypo from IGF + PGF.
Clen + keto: Not sure on this yet. I may run the MGF + IGF as a cycle by itself(during PCT) and run the PGF + clen as the bridge with Activate(I have a couple of bottles kicking around) and a test booster.
I only have 5 days left of my cycle(m-trn + ALRI max lmg) so I'm open to suggestions. I have about 2 months off (I wanna run another 4 week cycle of either sd or M-trn before my comp on July 30).
BTW: I'm using clomid + toremifene for PCT(along w/ IGF and MGF and possibly PGF/clen/keto)..
I just realized I am spending a ****load on my PCT & bridge...
04-15-2006, 11:13 AM
Quick question, how about using HGH after the forst 3 to4 weeks of using igf-1lr3?
What did you mean by "hunger"? I am currently running a 4 weeker 80mcg/day of igf-1lr3 and after the second day I got hungry as hell until now ( day 5 ) and also noticed that I get very tired an hour after i take my igf whihc is ONLY PW. I have experienced this before and it goes away after a about a week of initial use.
I am too very intrigued about igf-1lr3, MGF and New HGH fragment.
I am cycling with 300mgs of Primo and 125mgs of Test E wekly whihc very soonwill drop,I just don't do well with any test for the most part.
Thanks for your time!
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