best insulin supplements to take with pGH
- 01-01-2006, 06:07 PM
best insulin supplements to take with pGH
what are the best supplements to take if you're looking for an increased insulin effect when taking pGH. Actually I've heard that GH + test + IGF-1 + PGF-2 + Insulin is a very synergistic stack and i'm wondering if i can get the same type of synergy with pGH + superdrol (small dose of course) + oratropin + xfactor + fruit juice + ALA + vanadyl sulfate ... are there any supplements or foods that can mimick some of the effect of injecting insulin? i've heard that insulin spikes from carbs are the greatest after a workout, is this true?
- 01-02-2006, 12:36 PM
The spikes are greater post WO.
However, I was reading a study done on slin spiking and creatine intake, looks like to takes 90 grams of sugar (they might have even been using dexatrose) to cause a signifficiant spike.
If your looking for nutrient intake, the SD should be taking care of that for you. I dont see the need for Van. Sulfate. Possibly even the IGF-1, if your tring to mimick nutrient delivery and such. SD does it pretty good.
Just my opinion though.
- 01-02-2006, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by xtraflossy
01-02-2006, 01:35 PM
pancreatic stimulators, like glipizide (medecine) or 4-OH-LLE (4 hydroxyisoleucine, extract from fenugreek) ,otherwise chromium, cinnamon bark, d pinitol, banaba leaf extract (corosolic acid), taurine and even omega
3 can contribute to prevent insulin resistance and increasing insulin sensitivity
01-02-2006, 04:20 PM
- 6'5" 227 lbs.
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01-03-2006, 01:26 AM
insulean k is cheaper and has not only k-r-ala but some of the other ingredients frenchmuscle mentioned.
01-03-2006, 04:56 AM
okay nevermind its not cheaper ... anyone know where to get bulk 4-oh-isoleucine
01-03-2006, 01:57 PM
Where do you guys get this stuff?Originally Posted by xtraflossy
01-03-2006, 02:27 PM
"i've heard that insulin spikes from carbs are the greatest after a workout, is this true?"
What do you mean where do I get this?? Your body produces spikes/surges in slin naturally. It will do this to a greater degree when you eat. An even greater degree when suger is involved, and to the greatest degree when the body is depleated and is looking to replace AND you take in something high in carbs (yes, I know protine as well, I guess I shouldn't have assumed that proteins were ingested after W/O.)
So, yes, Assuming he's going to the gym, (I am because he's on this site and not a balloon popping fetish site) and he's planning on taking a supplement to increase insulin sensativity/production, and plans on eating sometime durring the day,... The spikes will be greater post w/o with some carbs.
01-03-2006, 04:25 PM
That is completely false. Given a fixed amount of food intake (as in a specific meal) insulin levels will be lesser after a PWO meal than after a meal taken after having been sedentary.Originally Posted by xtraflossy
In fact that is contradictory to the commonly accepted idea that exercise increases insulin sensitivity. Meaning that after exercise, the body requires less insulin to metablolize the same amount of food.
Additonally, the body does not produce insulin 'spikes' in the absence of elevated blood glucose levels (which are created by eating food). After sufficiently intense exercise, blood glucose levels will be below 'baseline' and insulin will not be significantly produced until they climb above it.
I will go so far as to say that much of the info on insulin sourced from 'BB101' is misleading. Here are some more credible articles on insulin function if you are interested:
Last edited by Nitrox; 01-03-2006 at 04:42 PM.
01-04-2006, 09:27 AM
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Glucophase XR agreed.
My The 1 LOG: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/254164-my-one-log.html
01-04-2006, 12:01 PM
I know I dont know everything, but from what I have read...
Scientific Investigation into the Rationality of Carbohydrate
Consumption Criterions in Correlation to Post-Training
Anaerobic Depletion Patterns
"Glycogen synthase action is inversely relative to glycogen intensity (23); as a result of the glycogen-depleted state post-training, skeletal muscle (24) and hepatic glycogen synthase activity are raised (13).
Basal glucose transport within skeletal muscle occurs via GLUT-4 (A powerhouse effect of insulin is the stimulation of glucose transport via the translocation of the insulin responsive glucose transporter, GLUT4, to the plasma membrane) (14).
Nevertheless, the ability of skeletal muscle to take up glucose is relative, due to adjustments in the GLUT-4 content of the sarcolemal membrane. "
In the post-workout period, therefore, muscle membrane permeability to glucose is high, thus favoring the accretion of glycogen replacement. However, if rapid carbohydrate distribution is not provided during recovery, glycogen synthesis will be limited because the rate of endogenous glucose production from gluconeogenic precursors such as alanine and glycerol is inadequate to support maximal rates of glycogen synthesis (15).
The ingestion of high GI carbohydrates increases glycogen synthesis in two ways.
The first (12) is increased substrate availability through the increased blood glucose concentration, which results in an increased glucose uptake due to mass action.
Moreover, the resultant increase in systemic insulin concentration stimulates the translocation of GLUT-4 transporters from an intracellular pool to the sarcolemal membrane (7).
The hormone insulin is also a powerful activator of glycogen synthase and inhibitor of glycogen phosphorylase (2).
"The effectiveness of a specific carbohydrate in encouraging resynthesis of the carbohydrate stores is reliant on the insulin and glucose response to the carbohydrate load (4).
This is directly linked to gastric emptying and intestinal absorption rates. It is also associated with the insulinogenic potential of the carbohydrate, as indicated by the glycemic index (GI) of a carbohydrate.
The development of glycogen synthesis relies upon the accessibility of glycogenic substrate (8) and the activity of the enzymes implicated in glycogen synthesis. These include hexokinase and glycogen synthase.
Prior exercise enhances skeletal muscle glucose transport (3) because of the translocation of GLUT-4 transporters from an intracellular pool to the sarcolemal membrane.
The inclination for skeletal muscle to extort blood glucose will thus be increased, and the glucose will tend to be directed toward glycogen synthesis because glycogen synthase is activated during recovery due to the low intramuscular glycogen concentration (23).
These conditions favoring the resynthesis of glycogen can be exploited (8) by the provision of a quality carbohydrate source.
The consequential amplification in glucose availability and the insulin response to the glucose load would tend to stimulate (7) a further increase in the GLUT-4 content of the sarcolemal membrane.
Research has demonstrated (11) that there is a direct correlation between the rate of glycogen storage during recovery and total muscle GLUT-4 protein content
01-04-2006, 01:52 PM
Correct. If you read that correctly, after exercise glucose uptake is facilitated by increased GLUT 4 activity. Since insulin also encourages glucose uptake, less is needed to accomplish the same amount of uptake.Originally Posted by xtraflossy
Think of GLUT 4 transporters as the valve and insulin as the pump. Exercise tends to open that valve up so to achieve the same flow the pump has to be turned down. In short the effectiveness of insulin is greater after exercise but the amount (ie spike) of insulin will be lower.
The reason why one has to offset the other is that insulin shuttles glucose from the blood stream but the body MUST maintain a certain level of glucose in the bloodstream to keep the brain alive. Consequently you cannot have random insulin spikes in the absence of (positive calorie) food intake otherwise you would suffer potentially fatal hypoglycemic effects.
This is where all that 'BB101' stuff is unclear. The common school of thought is that 'one needs to spike insulin post workout to promote the most growth.' Though not incorrect, it doesn't really describe the big picture. It is sort of like saying that one must get an income in order to be able to pay their taxes.
IMO a clearer picture is that to optimize muscle growth must provide the body with a constant positive energy balance in a form that can be used for lean tissue anabolism. That form is carbohydrate and it just so happens that insulin is an integral hormone for carbohydrate metabolism. An extension of this is that the body will grow/repair itself constantly so those same carbs that are good PWO are good throughout the day perhaps just not as much when you are not as active.
Going back to the topic, assuming one has normal insulin prodcution, IMO the best (and most cost effective) way to stimulate insulin production is a source of good carbs. I like whole food starch sources: oatmeal, rice, breads, etc. If you dont mind junk food then you can do the dextrose/maltodextrin thing.
Some of the supplements that 'improve' insulin effectiveness (ie vinegar) do so by lowering a food's GI all this means is that it will be digested/absorbed more slowly (not necessarily something you want). Others like Glucophase, ALA, Metformin, etc will actually improve insulin sensitivity but unless you have some degree of resistance they really aren't necessary since your body will just dial down its own insulin output to maintain blood glucose homeostasis.
Hope all that makes sense.
01-05-2006, 09:48 AM
All good info.
IF you look at my original post on the topic, I refered to a study I read on the effects of dexatrose and creatine (because I, for the life of me, can not figure out how to do the quotes: let alone post a pic or shrink it to 100x100)
"However, I was reading a study done on slin spiking and creatine intake, looks like to takes 90 grams of sugar (they might have even been using dexatrose) to cause a signifficiant spike."
The study was done basicly to prove/disprove most of the creatine transport products; but I remember that the awfull amount (orally and iv) of sugar/dexatrose was a little extreame (where I got the 90grams- and that was a few times a day they administered).- I was just appling it to food. Good, bad or ugly, I still think that the inclusion of SD in his cycle provides a greater nutrient shuttleing effect then any of the listed supps he was looking to include (IMO of course).
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