THEORY: possible reason for "GH gut"

[Nullifidian]

Ok, I was reading here on the boards someone said that it is likely GH gut is caused by large fat deposits in between your organs. This concept is supported by the fact that many bodybuilders who used to sport a gut do not anymore. Guys like Gustavo (had a gut at the Ironman, didn't at the Olympia), and retirees like Dorian.

Afterall, fat is fat, and you can lose it with proper dieting.


So why did guts only show up when GH use became more prevailent? Here's my theory:

GH burns fat wherever it is injected, right? What is the last place most guys lose fat? On their abs. What is the most common injection site for GH? On your abs. So you inject GH and it burns fat on your abs subcutaneously. It does NOT burn the fat in between your intestines. You diet down for a show, but only until you look really ripped. Well guess what, you may LOOK ripped, but it's artificial. You look ripped only because you forcably burned the fat on your abs using GH. Had you dieted without GH, your abs would not yet be ripped because you still have lots of fat in between your intestines to still lose!


Thus, the result is a "beer belly" amount of fat around your intestines, but a ripped look because all your subcutaneous fat has been burned. Voila, GH gut.


This to me also explains how some bodybuilders who take GH don't have GH guts, while others do.

If you diet fully before a show in addition to taking GH, you'll still lose the gut. If you never get ridiculously fat in the offseason, you won't get the gut in the first place. If you inject the GH in some place other than your abs, you'll wind up losing the gut because you'll drop the intestinal fat before your ab fat.

 

[Robboe]

The extra visceral fat is probably due to insulin use also.

I've not seen extensive footage of the 2005 O, but the photos i did see, Gustavo still had a huge belly. His internal organs have probably grown from the growth hormone use.

 

[Nullifidian]

The extra visceral fat is probably due to insulin use also.

I've not seen extensive footage of the 2005 O, but the photos i did see, Gustavo still had a huge belly. His internal organs have probably grown from the growth hormone use.

The photos you saw with him having a belly were likely shots where he was pushing it out. The guy did a vacuum for his front double biceps several times.

Dorian Yates has absolutely no gut whatsoever now. Organ enlargement is NOT reversable. If Dorian's organs were enlarged he would still have a gut. He does not.

 

[triceptor]

The extra visceral fat is probably due to insulin use also.

I've not seen extensive footage of the 2005 O, but the photos i did see, Gustavo still had a huge belly. His internal organs have probably grown from the growth hormone use.

this is my understanding of GH gut as well. It's unclear however if the organ growth is due to edema. It is siad that it can be reversed by using less GH so my guess would be edema.

IMHO I doubt that it is visceral fat accumulation. With the degreee of dieting that pros go through, visceral fat would be reduced in similar fashion as subcutaneous fat.

 

[Nullifidian]

this is my understanding of GH gut as well. It's unclear however if the organ growth is due to edema. It is siad that it can be reversed by using less GH so my guess would be edema.

IMHO I doubt that it is visceral fat accumulation. With the degreee of dieting that pros go through, visceral fat would be reduced in similar fashion as subcutaneous fat.

Not necessarily. Many pros diet down for competition in 8 weeks or less these days. I doubt that is enough time to lose visceral fat.

 

[triceptor]

Not necessarily. Many pros diet down for competition in 8 weeks or less these days. I doubt that is enough time to lose visceral fat.

most pros stay very close to competition BF levels these days. look at coleman, he has evidence of GH gut with his mildly distended stomach and yet he's lean all year long. I also would assert that most pros have been competition dieting for over 10 years and surely they would not have the degree of visceral fat that the average person and certainly not to the degree that it would push their stomach out like Gustavo's at the Arnold.

 

[Nullifidian]

Ronnie doesn't stay in contest condition all year. He gets pretty darn bloated in the offseason. Yet if you notice, with all his bloat in the offseason, not all that much appears to be fat. It may be entirely possible that through using drugs which cause apoptosis, he may have eliminated a vast number of subcutaneous fat cells and so a large amount of fat that gets stored gets stored internally.

Remember, when bodybuilders diet, they only diet to the point where they LOOK good. They don't measure they bodyfat percentage, they use the mirror.


Ronnie may stay relatively close to his contest condition year round, but he already has the visceral fat. He certainly isn't losing fat during the year.

 

[triceptor]

ok... here's a rat model study that looks at rGH administration in conjunction with glutamine. What I see after gleening the study is the dramatic increas in liver and stomach and slight increase in spleen weight but an insignificant increase in carcas H2O - so perhaps it is not edema. Also the greatest organ weight increase was experienced in the group administered both rGH and glutamine. Perhaps its the utilization of both rGH and Glutamine that leads to ordgan growth.

http://www.wjgnet.com/1007-9327/8/752.htm

 

[Nullifidian]

Umm, from what that study said, GH has no effect on intestinal total weight.

 

[judge-mental]

GH reduces your insulin sensetivity even without insulin by damping all those FFA into the blood stream, and maybe by other mechanism too. so you don't have to use insulin.

 

[triceptor]

then there is this abstarct that shows conclusive and definite organ growth from GH supplementation. This study was done on adults who had had GH deficiencies as children. A losw daily dose of 1.5iu a day for 10 months inceased the length of the kidney by a 1cm and left ventricular mass as well. once could deduce that if 1.5iu's a day did this then the amounts taken by pro BB's would cause other organs to grow and at a faster rate.....


Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 2001 Dec;55(6):741-8.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/utils/lofref.fcgi?PrId=3046&uid=11895215&db=pubmed&url=http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/openurl?genre=article&sid=nlm:pubmed&issn=0300-0664&date=2001&volume=55&issue=6&spage=741
[SIZE=+1]Low individualized growth hormone (GH) dose increased renal and cardiac growth in young adults with childhood onset GH deficiency.[/SIZE]

Link K, Bulow B, Westman K, Salmonsson EC, Eskilsson J, Erfurth EM.

Department of Endocrinology and Diabetology, University Hospital Lund, Sweden.

OBJECTIVE: In childhood onset GH deficiency (GHD) a reduction in left ventricular mass (LV-mass) and impairment of systolic function as well an impairment in glomerular filtration rate (GFR) has been shown. The aim of the present study was to assess if a low GH dose resulted in an improvement in morphological and functional parameters of these organs. DESIGN AND PATIENTS: Eleven patients with childhood onset GHD were investigated before and after 10 months of GH treatment at a dose of 1.5 IU/day (range 1-2), corresponding to 0.02 IU/kg/day or 7 microg/ kg/day. The GH dose resulted in a serum IGF-I level in the normal range in all but one patient. MEASUREMENTS: Doppler echocardiography of the heart and ultrasound examination of the kidneys was performed. Glomerular filtration rate (GFR) was estimated with iohexol clearance and urinary proteinuria was measured with 24-h urinary samples collected for analyses of albumin, alpha-1-microglobulin, IgG and albumin/creatinine clearance ratio. Body composition was measured by bioelectric impedance analysis. RESULTS: L V-mass index increased significantly after GH treatment (P = 0.04), and there was a clear trend for a positive correlation between the increase in serum IGF-I and the increase in LV-mass index, although it did not reach significance (r= 0.57, P = 0.07). GH treatment did not increase cardiac fractional shortening. Kidney length increased significantly (P = 0.02) with an average increase of 1 cm (range - 0.5-1.5 cm). No significant changes in median GFR or serum creatinine were recorded. Three patients with subnormal GFR before GH treatment normalized after 10 months of treatment. Urine analysis showed no abnormalities before or after GH treatment. A significant decrease in percentage fat mass was recorded (P = 0.03). CONCLUSION: A low individualized GH dose to adults with childhood onset GHD resulted in an increase in LV-mass index and kidney length. Re-establishing GH treatment with a low dose in this patient group can lead to a further somatic maturation of these organs, probably not accomplished previously.

PMID: 11895215 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[triceptor]

Umm, from what that study said, GH has no effect on intestinal total weight.

Although rhGH or Gln didn't affected the absolute weight of the remnant small intestine, the ratio of weight/length was greater in rats treated with Gln, rhGH and rhGH+Gln than those with PN alone (2-way ANOVA contrasting 4 experimental groups, P=0.019, 0.012 and 0.018 respectively), there were synergistic effects between rhGH and Gln in the increase of the weight/length of the remnant small intestine. Lung, liver and spleen weights were increased in rats treated with rhGH, others were not significantly affected by rhGH and/or Gln, P>0.05.

 

[Nullifidian]

Although rhGH or Gln didn't affected the absolute weight of the remnant small intestine, the ratio of weight/length was greater in rats treated with Gln, rhGH and rhGH+Gln than those with PN alone (2-way ANOVA contrasting 4 experimental groups, P=0.019, 0.012 and 0.018 respectively), there were synergistic effects between rhGH and Gln in the increase of the weight/length of the remnant small intestine. Lung, liver and spleen weights were increased in rats treated with rhGH, others were not significantly affected by rhGH and/or Gln, P>0.05.

That disagrees with the numbers they posted. Btw, keep in mind that the rats they used had shortened colons. They had a genetic defect that specifically makes their intestines smaller.


As for 1.5IU increasing organ size, and the logic that higher doses must increase it more is flawed. There is nothing to indicate the type fo relationship GH has to organ growth. You are assuming a linear relatinoship where none such may exist. For all we know there may be a "cutoff" so to speak and any more than a certain dose might have zero effect on organ tissue size.


Also keep in mind that these were adults who had GH deficiencies as children. Their tissue may thus have developed different resistances or sensitivities to GH due to their childhood deficiency.



I'm not trying to say you are wrong. I'm just saying nothing is conclusive at this point in time is all, and that other possibilities remain quite equal in some aspects, less valid in some aspects, and more valid in other aspects.