Follistatin, ACTN3, IGF-1, shRNA myostain and gene therapy - AnabolicMinds.com

Follistatin, ACTN3, IGF-1, shRNA myostain and gene therapy

Page 1 of 2 12 Last
  1. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Follistatin, ACTN3, IGF-1, shRNA myostain and gene therapy


    There is good scientific evidence for the use of gene therapy for follistatin and IGF-1. There is also good potential with ACTN3 (sprinter's gene) and shRNA for myostatin (myostatin inhibitor). (I am a real researcher, studying athletic performance enhancement and the treatment of muscle diseases) I am currently working on a research project related to these and some other genes. If you compare gene therapy versus injection of the gene product (peptide or protein), there are definite safety advantages to administration of the peptide. Has anyone else observed this same research? My question is related to gene therapy with IGF-1. In theory, you should be able to obtain similar results from the injection of IGF-1 peptide as you would with IGF-1 AAV gene therapy. Of course, the peptide will require frequent dosing. It has been my experience that the IGF-1 peptide does not even come close to achieving the results that gene therapy does. Any thoughts?

  2. bigironkiller's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  260 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    949
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    What degrees do you have? Always wanted to be a researcher.
  3. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Undergraduate was biochemistry. I have an MD, but also post graduate work in Molecular Biology and Biochem. My research has been mainly for cancer gene therapy, but got into anabolic work for cancer muscle wasting. Once I started working on muscle building, I have become completely consumed. The potential is very exciting.
    •   
       

  4. JohnnieFreeze's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    664
    Rep Power
    1739

    Reputation

    Ive read some studies about gene therapy for muscle growth..subjects were able to gain a higher degree of muscle, and in a matter of weeks rather than months like with simple injections..
    but unless you're Bill Gates its probably not a realistic option for most.
  5. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    I agree that it isn't cheap. However, a single injection can give 2 plus years of muscle 2-4x greater than steroids. If you compare it, in the long run, gene therapy is a better value.
  6. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    My initial post was really meant to see if anyone is getting good results injecting IGF-1. The gene therapy for IGF-1 in animals was very impressive. It seems that you should be able to obtain similar results with peptide injections. Plus with peptide injections, you control the amount. However, I suspect the results of peptide injections fall well short of gene therapy. The reason I ask, is related to follistatin and actn-3. The follistatin peptide is available, but too expensive. I think it could be produced in bulk, which would make it more reasonable in price. I have not found actn-3 available as a peptide. It too could be created by a custom peptide production. However, if the peptide injections do not work that well, then it would be a wasted effort. It would be better to pursue the gene therapy avenue. Thanks for any help!
  7. darkvard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    145
    Rep Power
    134

    Reputation

    is it even safe to perform gene therapy on humans?
  8. lyfespan's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  188 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Age
    39
    Posts
    1,124
    Rep Power
    788

    Reputation

    interested in reading a lil more about this. Been intrigued by the myostatin inhibition, since seeing thats world's strongest toddler on TLC.

    as well as whating to know more about igf-1, after all im 35
  9. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Darkvard,

    There are several types of gene therapy vectors. Adenoviruses are fairly safe. There is a gene therapy for treating cancer (gendacine) approved in China using adenoviruses. Adeno associated virus (AAV) are probably the one of choice. There is a low immune response with good gene expression. Retroviral vectors (ie Lentivirus) are effective, but much more dangerous. In human trials, this type has caused cancer.
    Overall, it is not fully known if gene therapy is safe. Adeno and AAV seem to be, but experience is limited. There are some human trials for treating muscle dystropies beginning soon.
  10. darkvard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    145
    Rep Power
    134

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by radone View Post
    Darkvard,

    There are several types of gene therapy vectors. Adenoviruses are fairly safe. There is a gene therapy for treating cancer (gendacine) approved in China using adenoviruses. Adeno associated virus (AAV) are probably the one of choice. There is a low immune response with good gene expression. Retroviral vectors (ie Lentivirus) are effective, but much more dangerous. In human trials, this type has caused cancer.
    Overall, it is not fully known if gene therapy is safe. Adeno and AAV seem to be, but experience is limited. There are some human trials for treating muscle dystropies beginning soon.
    But nobody is doing it for bodybuilding yet? right
  11. bigironkiller's Avatar
    Stats
    6'4"  260 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    949
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Radone,

    Any advances you have heard of regaurding spinal disc herniation? I know there are trials with fibrin/collagen injections. Also I believe in Europe they withdraw a portion of the injured disc, basically regrow the material in a lab and reinhect it back into the disc. What are your thoughts?
  12. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Bigironkiller,

    I am glad you asked. That is my speciality. I do minimally invasive imaged guided spine procedures.
    You should research ozone disc therapy. It is used more in Europe, though you can find it in the US. It has good success, better than surgery for an isolated disc herniation. There are a few other options for disc herniations. There are mechanical discectomy (looks like a corkscrew) which pulls out a small amount of disc (Stryker Decompressor is the device name). There is also laser discectomy. This burns a small amount of disc in the center, which can cause the disc to retract, treating the herniation.

    For these mentioned therapies to work, the disc herniation needs to be contained. So, if you have an annular tear with disc extrusion, these are not a good options.

    Overall, Ozone disc injection/therapy seems to have the best results.

    I hope this info helps!

    Radone
  13. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Darkvard,

    I don't think they are. But I am sure that once there is a little more data or when the agents are more available, then it will be used for performance enhancement. The researchers are predicting that it will be showing up in athletes within the next 2 years. There is no way to test for it, except by muscle biopsy. WADA has put a lot of effort in to developing a test, with no real luck.
    Follisatin significantly increases fast twitch type II muscle fibers. I heard a researcher estimate from the animal data that a human treated may be able to run up to 46 mph with an estimated 40 yard dash speed of 2.5 seconds. Now, I think that is unlikely, but sub 4 second speed is a definite possibility. Can you image a NFL running back with that type of speed?

    This area of research is fascinating!
  14. JohnnieFreeze's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    664
    Rep Power
    1739

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by radone View Post
    I agree that it isn't cheap. However, a single injection can give 2 plus years of muscle 2-4x greater than steroids. If you compare it, in the long run, gene therapy is a better value.
    I agree...plus its muscle that wont disappear when the injections stop..you just need lots of dough upfront for this kind of thing. I did hear a story of a guy supposedly doing some form of myo-blocking drug..and running him thousands for a 4-6 week cycle.
  15. darkvard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    145
    Rep Power
    134

    Reputation

    wasn't a big side effect of myostatin inhibition that joints would become weak and frail?
  16. sanchezgreg18's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  170 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Age
    25
    Posts
    1,682
    Rep Power
    916

    Reputation

    radone: have you heard of MYO-029? supposedly a myostatin inhibiting peptide?


    supposedly the peptide:

    "appears to block the actions of a protein- GDF8- that decreases muscle mass, increases fat accumilation, and increases blood glucose. As an anti-GDF8 antibody, MYO-029 has the potential to decrease the high glucose levels that characterize Type 2 diabetes. MYO-029 also may have the potential to treat muscle-waisting diseases such as age related frailty and muscular dystrophy."
  17. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    I have heard about myo-029. It is a monoclonal antibody blocking the myostatin receptor. That helps block the effect of myostatin. The trials weren't super exciting. The company that was developing it has decided not to move any further with it. This doesn't mean that it would not work for general muscle enhancement, but just not great for muscular dystophies. The problem is the fact that it is monclonal antibody. Those type of drugs generally have bad side effects or allergy problems. There is another drug acvr2b, which is soluble (free) mysotatin receptor. The thought is that it will bind myostatin and inhibit it from stimulating the real receptor. The study results that i read were pretty good. I think it may be available as research products, but pricing is too high. The dose in mice was 10-50 mg/kg.
    Overall, Follistatin is still the most promising option.

    In regard to tendon tear/rupture. There is some concern with myostatin inhibitors. This is mostly due to the fact that the muscle becomes stronger than the tendon is designed to handle. I have not heard this being as much of a problem with follistatin, but it is still a mild concern.
  18. JohnnieFreeze's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    664
    Rep Power
    1739

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by radone View Post
    I have heard about myo-029. It is a monoclonal antibody blocking the myostatin receptor. That helps block the effect of myostatin. The trials weren't super exciting. The company that was developing it has decided not to move any further with it. This doesn't mean that it would not work for general muscle enhancement, but just not great for muscular dystophies. The problem is the fact that it is monclonal antibody. Those type of drugs generally have bad side effects or allergy problems. There is another drug acvr2b, which is soluble (free) mysotatin receptor. The thought is that it will bind myostatin and inhibit it from stimulating the real receptor. The study results that i read were pretty good. I think it may be available as research products, but pricing is too high. The dose in mice was 10-50 mg/kg.
    Overall, Follistatin is still the most promising option.

    In regard to tendon tear/rupture. There is some concern with myostatin inhibitors. This is mostly due to the fact that the muscle becomes stronger than the tendon is designed to handle. I have not heard this being as much of a problem with follistatin, but it is still a mild concern.
    Pretty much explains why the price for myo-029 has gone down..lol
  19. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    JohnnieFreeze,

    You are probably right. Researchers are losing interest for that one. I have checked around on research grade acvr2b. It seems like a better choice. It is just too high for a researcher in today's economy. I will keep an eye out for a better deal.
  20. ezza's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  0 lbs.
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    312
    Rep Power
    236

    Reputation

    This sounds incredibly interesting. I wonder how many people out there have tried this on themselves. I did a quick search and it is readily available only thing is for close to 5G you only get 1 mg. Very expensive if doses need to be between 10-50mg/kg.
  21. JohnnieFreeze's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    664
    Rep Power
    1739

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by radone View Post
    JohnnieFreeze,

    You are probably right. Researchers are losing interest for that one. I have checked around on research grade acvr2b. It seems like a better choice. It is just too high for a researcher in today's economy. I will keep an eye out for a better deal.
    great..please do keep in touch if you come across a "deal".
  22. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    It is very expensive. There may be some options for custom bulk synthesis. That may get the prices down to a reasonable level. Also, I forgot to mention that was once a week dosing at 10-50mg/kg. I did see some research that suggest that dosing might be effective for every 3-4 weeks. That would really cut the amount needed along with the associated cost.

    Radone
  23. angelo212's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    303
    Rep Power
    249

    Reputation

    Hey Radone,
    myo-029 is available at some research chem sites now. You think it's a waste of money?
  24. xxl610's Avatar
    Stats
    6'10"  298 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    60

    Reputation

    super interesting info radone.
  25. xxl610's Avatar
    Stats
    6'10"  298 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    12
    Rep Power
    60

    Reputation

    do you know of any good sites that follow the research on these experimental gene therapys. like the one being tested china that you mentioned.
  26. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Angelo,

    I don't think I would try it. That type of drug tends to have a lot of sides. Now acvr2b, that would be worth trying.
  27. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    xxl610,

    There is some info on genetherapy dot net. If you google follistatin or myostatin inhibitors there is also some good info.
  28. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    xxl610,

    There is some info on genetherapy dot net. If you google follistatin or myostatin inhibitors there is also some good info.
  29. superchip's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    11
    Rep Power
    59

    Reputation

    [QUOTE=radone;2382140]There is good scientific evidence for the use of gene therapy for follistatin and IGF-1. There is also good potential with ACTN3 (sprinter's gene) and shRNA for myostatin (myostatin inhibitor). (I am a real researcher, studying athletic performance enhancement and the treatment of muscle diseases) I am currently working on a research project related to these and some other genes. If you compare gene therapy versus injection of the gene product (peptide or protein), there are definite safety advantages to administration of the peptide. Has anyone else observed this same research? My question is related to gene therapy with IGF-1. In theory, you should be able to obtain similar results from the injection of IGF-1 peptide as you would with IGF-1 AAV gene therapy. Of course, the peptide will require frequent dosing. It has been my experience that the IGF-1 peptide does not even come close to achieving the results that gene therapy does. Any thoughts?

    so what you mean is that the gene therapy with igf-1 has the same effect as if you would inject igf-1 ed and have better results.?? so basicly what it does is raising your igf-1 level in the body to a higher level , even higher than if you would just inject a fair amount..?? or am i misunderstanding something here?

    in my opinion having continiously high igf-1 levels in the body is not something you want to do to yourself sindse it will probably only give you cancer quick..

    myostatin blockage is interesting though.. if you can get past the tendon problem.. and have some more data on human tests.. and cut the treatment price down to 1/10th of what it is now.. and ...
  30. radone's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Age
    40
    Posts
    23
    Rep Power
    67

    Reputation

    Superchip,
    Take a look at IGF gene therapy studies done by Dr. Lee Sweeney. The idea is that direct intramuscular injection would lead to increased IGF only in the muscle. So, the other risk associated with IGF should be reduced. These are only animal studies, so who knows how the results will be in humans. I agree you would have to be concerned about adverse effects. But just look at those mice that were treated. I don't think people injecting the IGF peptide are getting the same results. Why does the gene therapy bulk up a mouse, but injecting the peptide doesn't seem to be even close.

    As for myostatin inhibitors and the tendon problem, there is a fix for that. Take a look at BMP14 and BMP12 (bone morphogenic protein) injections for tendons. They have a gene therapy for that too!
  31. hman85's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  192 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Age
    29
    Posts
    3,806
    Rep Power
    47040

    Reputation

    Super interesting! Good convo guys
  32. gobig1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    50
    Posts
    235
    Rep Power
    262

    Reputation

    I can't believe such an interesting topic has just died off for almost a year now... I'm sitting over here in the big sand box wondering what the latest developments are with Follistatin, et. all, and other new developments in the niche world of gene-therapies...

    Anyone got the latest scoop...
  33. jayice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    116

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by gobig1 View Post
    I can't believe such an interesting topic has just died off for almost a year now... I'm sitting over here in the big sand box wondering what the latest developments are with Follistatin, et. all, and other new developments in the niche world of gene-therapies...

    Anyone got the latest scoop...
    EXACTLY! i just stumbled up here now! and with the developments with Follistatin, ACTN3 and ACE-031 we could really use Radone's opinion!
  34. jayice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    101
    Rep Power
    116

    Reputation

    bump for interest
  35. grega60438's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    206
    Rep Power
    3016

    Reputation

    I have seen positive Follistatin logs, but I suspect some of those have a sales agenda. IMO it seems many of the average Joe logs have not been impressed with Follistatin, and some got sick from it. Some suspect the Follistatin quality was not up to par. I really want to like Follistatin, but these quality issues are concerning. I imagine there are many who feel the same concerns. It is a shame as it seems these quality issues may be hindering some potential Follistatin research. I hope this improves soon, so that we can better realize the potential of Follistatin.
  36. AnabolicMinds Forum Rep
    Spaniard's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  186 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,952
    Rep Power
    3795913

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Still no updates? You would think after a few years there would be some sort of research data appearing???
  37. IBE
    IBE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Age
    39
    Posts
    511
    Rep Power
    1063

    Reputation

    all follistatin on the black market are fake and we have some being tested from two different labs and will report next week when they are finished. I have been trying to tell everyone this for a while but now going to prove it
  38. AnabolicMinds Forum Rep
    Spaniard's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  186 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    6,952
    Rep Power
    3795913

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    You have actual follistatin coming out? Please keep me updated.
    Olympus Labs DemiGod And Rep ~ http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/253076-spaniards-coliseum-featuring.html~http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/220023-valdez-goes-back-29.html
  39. Jorsn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    11704

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by IBE View Post
    all follistatin on the black market are fake and we have some being tested from two different labs and will report next week when they are finished. I have been trying to tell everyone this for a while but now going to prove it
    Finally someone who has seen the light!
  40. Jorsn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  185 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    741
    Rep Power
    11704

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dvaldez5 View Post
    You have actual follistatin coming out? Please keep me updated.
    That's not what he said. He said he was going to test the bunk Follistatin.
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Gene therapy for running speed
    By guyver2k in forum IGF-1/GH
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-09-2008, 10:16 PM
  2. To China For Gene Therapy Cancer Drug
    By yeahright in forum News and Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-06-2007, 02:10 AM
  3. Gene therapy reverses ED in animal model
    By TheCrownedOne in forum News and Articles
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-08-2007, 06:38 AM
  4. Gene Therapy with Coffee and Tea
    By Smoky in forum News and Articles
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-24-2006, 05:41 PM
  5. Mighty Mouse, for real, courtesy of gene therapy
    By khafra in forum General Chat
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-27-2004, 09:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in