WTF is the truth?
- 11-06-2009, 01:08 AM
WTF is the truth?
Ok guys I have been reading every experts write up in IGF-1 and I still can't get a definitive answer on reconstitution. Everybody seems to say to use BA or acetic acid (1 part 5% vinegar with 7 parts distilled water) and use bac water for cutting it. So is Dave Polumbo an idiot? Why does he tell people that you can use just bact water and the acetic acid is only to get all of the IGF-1 out of the glassware? I want to go with his advice but other experts say the peptide will damage within hours? WTH is the real deal?
Question and Answer with Dave:
4. If i only have bacteriostatic can i just use that to reconstitute? or will it go bad without acetic?
4. It won't go bad sooner, but you will lose some of the IGF-1...the acid helps get it all out of the vial (the lost yield of IGF-1 without using acid water is only a few %)
Dave's IGF-1 Protocol
UNOFFICIAL IGF-1 INSTRUCTIONS
(1) Storage of IGF-1 (prior to mixing)
Lyophilized (dry) IGF-1 is stable at room temperature for 3 weeks; however, it should be stored below -18 degrees Celsius (in the freezer section).
(2) Weight of IGF-1
1 milligram (mg) IGF-1 = 1000 micrograms (mcg) IGF-1
[Dry weight—before mixing]
(3) What to Mix the IGF-1 with
When reconstituting (adding water), It is important to remember that IGF-1 can get “stuck” in the grooves of the glass bottle it comes packaged in. While glass appears smooth to the naked eye, under a microscope, it is a convoluted landscape of grooves and hidden recesses.
By mixing the lyophilized IGF-1 with an “acid water” (e.g. 10mM HCL– very dilute hydrochloric acid), the IGF-1 molecules are efficiently detached from the glass and solubilized in the mixture. Any online “compounding” laboratory could mix up a 10mM HCL solution. Likewise, any intro chemistry student should be able to do the same.
If a reliable source of “acid water” cannot be located, mix your IGF-1 powder with bacteriostatic water—you’ll lose, at worst, 10% of the IGF-1 solution.
(4) Adding the Acid Water
For purposes of mathematical ease, I suggest mixing the dry 1mg (1000mcg) IGF-1 with 3mL (or 3cc) of the “acid water” mixture.
(5) Preservation of the IGF-1
Using a 1cc insulin syringe, draw 1cc out of the bottle that contains 3cc of the acid water/IGF-1 mixture. In a separate 1cc insulin syringe, draw up another 1cc of the solution. Freeze these two loaded insulin syringes. They will be utilized at a later date.
NOTE: Freezing can safely and effectively preserve IGF-1 (even after it’s been mixed).
(6) The Correct Dilution
To the remaining 1cc of IGF-1 that’s left in the glass bottle, add 2cc of bacteriostatic water. This will return the total volume back up to 3cc.
(7) The Mathematics
(a) The original concentration of the IGF-1 solution was 1mg (1000mcg) IGF-1 in 3cc of water.
(b) Each 1cc that we removed, then, contained approximately 333mcg per 1cc.
1000mcg / 3cc = 333mcg per 1cc
(c) The 1cc that was left in the bottle, then, also contains 333mcg of IGF-1.
(d) We added 2cc of bacteriostatic water to the bottle and brought the total volume back up to 3cc. The difference, now, is that we now have 333mcg in 3cc of liquid (instead of in 1cc)
(e) To determine how much IGF-1 is in 1cc, you must divide by 3
333mcg / 3cc = 111mcg per 1cc
(f) To determine how much IGF-1 is in .10cc (or 1/10th cc), we do the following:
111mcg / 10 = 11mcg per .10cc (or 10 unit marking on insulin syringe)
(8) Effective Dosages of IGF-1
Dosages in the range of 10-20mcg per day (taken 15-20 minutes after training) are quite effective for building and repairing muscle tissue. More importantly, these “moderate” dosages (by some people’s estimation) stimulate muscle growth yet escape rapid “downregulation” of the all important IGF-1 receptors. Without receptors to recognize the IGF-1, it doesn’t matter how much you inject.
As dosages climb to over 50mcg per day, receptor downgrade increases exponentially and, from what I’ve observed among bodybuilders, muscle gains come to a screeching halt.
Bodybuilders will have the most success with IGF-1 if they follow the protocol I outlined below. Remember, more isn’t always better!
- 11-06-2009, 12:49 PM
IGF will degrade faster if reconstituted in bac water. IGF needs to be reconstituted with AA and will last for 1+ years.....but when u go to PIN, u can add bac water to the syringe to make the shot less painful
- 11-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Yeah but how long? If it is a day or two then Dave is full of sh@@. He does 4 week cycles so it must last at least that long. I think he is a pretty smart guy so I am going with what he says. 3mls of acetic acid solution, divide it up by 3 and freeze 2, then add 2 mls of bac water.
11-07-2009, 10:08 PM
Most sources go againest what he is saying. In BW, it starts to degrade immediatly, and within 2 weeks its worthless. There is no reason to freeze your syringes because in AA your solution will keep most of of its potency for over a year.
Before you go to the gym, pull out whatever dose you want in each syringe, say 20mcg each. Do not cut with BW yet, put them in a sunglasses case or whatever else looks unconspicuous at the gym along with your bottle of BW. Then post workout draw out your BW into each syringe and pin. No unecessary breakdown occurs, since you pull the BW 30 seconds before you are pinning.
11-19-2009, 02:42 PM
11-30-2009, 01:36 PM
Is there some reason to use the ba bacteriostatic water over the nacl or just plain sterile water for injection?
12-04-2009, 11:44 AM
Heck we used BA when LR3 first came to human use. Worked great. Stayed potent for months in BA at room temp.
AA is suggested by GroPep, but there's nothing ruling out other solvents. Well, there are parrots who spout off what they hear on the Internet who are against other solvents. But they have minimal experience so don't listen to them.
12-20-2009, 01:12 AM
It depends on how IGF-1 was made and what if any buffer (i.e. base) is present.
The reconstitution process is designed to create a stable pH or isoelectric point for that peptide so that protons don't move from one amino acid in the chain to another. If they do this they eventually degrade much of the peptide chain.
Every peptide has its own ideal ph or isolectric point (stable point) which is kind of just the sum of its parts. Each amino acid has specific properties. Some are acidic, some basic, some water loving, some water hating, etc. The peptide chain composed of all these amino acids takes on the ideal ph based on the sum of all these different amino acid characteristics.
So IGF-1 being a long-chain has an ideal environment in which it is stable. That really is the pH and it is stable because protons from atoms that make up the amino acids are happy to stay where they are.
Change the ideal environment and movement occurs.
So reconstitution is about finding the right environment and holding it.
Now the best way to hold the environment is to have a base and an acid present. The base has a pH on one end of the scale and the acid the other. Choosing a proper base (and amount) will allow a solution to "meet in the middle" when the two are introduced together.
So for IGF-1 LR3 this "meet in the middle" occurs with acetate (a base) and acetic acid (a weak acid). Now IF there is no acetate present because the maker did not put it in (or you failed to ) reconstituting w/ acetic acid will make the environment too acidic and IGF-1 LR3 will experience depronation and degrade rapidly. So in a situation where there is an adequate base present such as acetate, you want to use acetic acid.
Now IF no base is added, you do not want to add an acid. Reconstituting with sterile water will give a pH of 4-7. Bacteriostatic water has a pH around 5. This is not a bad environment for IGF-1. However the trick is getting it to hold. So although the environment may initially be close to ideal for IGF-1, will it be weeks from now, months or years from now. Studies show that with certain acid/base mixtures with something like Human or Bovine Serum Albumin added to reduce aggregation the peptide can be stable for months to years in reconstituted form.
This is not the case with water.
The second degradation determinant besides solution is temperature. In general the colder the temperature the less degradation that will occur. Some very hot temperatures can degrade a peptide significantly w/in 24 hours while refrigerated temps can show low or no degradation a month later.
Anyway I hope this helps improve your understanding. I would say "know your IGF-1 LR3 and how it is made, but I doubt even your retailer knows".
11-30-2012, 09:29 AM
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