Post workout insulin (humalog) questions

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    Post workout insulin (humalog) questions


    I am now a type 1 diabetic and researching post workout inslin spikes. This is not something i want to do now but will do with time. I have a few questions though

    1: info i've read is for non-diabetics and its recommended to use no more than 10units PWO, but does the same apply to a diabetic? ie start at 2 extra units 1st and see how i react and then increase gradually?

    2: what kind of carb would you recommend? i have a choice of dextrose or maltodextrin

    3: normmaly, post workout i have 2 scoops of protien, 1-2 bananas and something else sugary. to take advantage of the insulin i should add further carb and protein, but how much of each? I've read a 2:1 ratio is popular. eg 3 scoops of protein, 1 banana and then 50-100g of dextrose (too much?)

    4: should i add 5g of creatine mono to my pwo shake too? or is this pointless with how effective insulin is at shuttling nutrients?

    5: not a question but saying that within 1.5 - 2 hrs of pwo i'd eat my lean high quality evening meal

    thanks guys for helping me out

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    Have you not asked this question before? anyway as always im not going to give advice on insulin but you should know that taking in just dextrose or malodexterin and not eating for 1.5 hours after pinning slin will most likely send you into hypoglycemic shock, you need to intake mixed GI carbs and have fast carbs on hand incase the worst happens...
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    i havent asked this question before

    thanks for the advice regarding the carb issue but if anyone has any input to my original post it would be much appreciated
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    the amount of carb u eat is gonna correlate with how much slin u use. nd yeah just sugar would send u into shock. if u dont eat for almost 2 hrs
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    Acnemans Insulin FAQ

    what is insulin?

    Insulin is a hormone secreted by the beta cells of the pancreas that controls the metabolism and cellular uptake of sugars, proteins, and fats. As a drug, it is used principally to control diabetes. Insulin is not a steroid.

    What type of insulin should I use for bodybuilding?

    Humulin R and Humulog are the only insulins I recommend because they act fast and are out of the body fastest(this makes them the safest). I have never used Humalog but understand that aside from quicker onset and half-life it is essentially the same.

    Why do I want to use insulin?

    Insulin has been called "Anabolicus Maximus" by some gurus of the bodybuilding world. Insulin can give you greater gains than you have ever had using anabolics alone. Insulin, in combination with androgens and resistance exercise, may trigger maturation of satellite muscle cells (small, more or less useless cells that are held in reserve, which do not contribute to muscular strength) into mature muscle cells that do contribute to muscular size and strength. How freakin cool is that. Hyperinsulinemia has been shown to stimulate protein synthesis in isolated limb infusion experiments , these anabolic properties seem to be the result of insulin binding to IGF-1 receptors.

    If insulin is so great why aren't all diabetics huge?

    Diabetics have a disease and use insulin to replace endogenous insulin that they cannot produce. Bodybuilders use insulin in a totally different way. Some diabetic bodybuilders manipulate their insulin use to use insulin for muscle growth and get good results but changing dosages and times of injection of insulin for diabetics can be dangerous.

    Isn't taking insulin dangerous?

    ummm YES! Before deciding to take insulin here is what you have to do to be safe.

    Insulin safety

    1. Do not use slin alone have a training partner or girlfriend who's not using slin hang around with you from the time you take the slin to about 2.5/4 hrs after.

    2. Tell you're partner to look for anything out of the norm for your personality and have a list of questions like your ssn or address etc that they can ask you. Don't joke around, and answer them without ****, because if you cant answer or refuse to answer it could be a sign of hypoglycemia(low blood sugar). Symptoms of hypoglycemia include disorientation, headache, drowsiness, weakness, dizziness, fast heartbeat, sweating, tremor, and nausea.

    3. If you cant/wont answer or are feeling the symptoms of hypoglycemia they should be prepared to feed you carbs like pancake syrup, coke, sugary stuff. I bought glucose tablets at walmart. kinda like candy but gets in the blood faster and dissolve quickly. these are for diabetics ask at the pharmacy.

    4. Have your partner know that if they suspect low blood sugar and cant convince or force you to consume carbs until your better. CALL 911 and ask for an ambulance and tell the truth to the operator... that they suspect you are in insulin shock and explain when they get there(the ambulance guys not the cops) that you are not diabetic but using insulin for anabolic purposes. Have the type of slin, the dosage and carbs consumed recorded to give the paramedic. They will save your life. Then you refuse transport to the hospital and eat. It might be a good idea to make sure your house is "clean" before every workout just in case the bad thing happens and the cops ask a lot of questions.

    5. Why so much preparation for the possible problem?? insulin can kill you in minutes if you go down!!

    6. Take the carbs and protein together immediately after injecting the slin(dont take chances trying to time out 15 min after injection). Take the protein with the carbs because the protein is pushed into the muscles with the slin also(creatine too).

    7. Before an hour passes you should eat a normal balanced meal(high protein low fat with carbs).

    8. Consume another small high protein medium carb low fat meal at 2.5 hours after the injection. Congrats you lived.(keep some gatoraid on hand just to make sure because your not gonna have a lifeline)

    9. YAWN... Don't go to sleep within 4/6 hours of using insulin since you can develop hypoglycemia while asleep and not have warning signs.

    Ok I'm not scared I still want to use insulin...

    Where do i get it?

    Humulin R is over the counter (OTC) just about everywhere. Humulog is new and is still a prescription drug is some places. BUT... Insulin is NOT a controlled substance and will not be confiscated by customs or postal inspectors so order it online if you cant get it locally. Its legal.

    Where do I keep it? (STORAGE)

    The FDA requires that all preparations of insulin contain instructions to keep in a cold place and to avoid freezing. The refrigerator is a good spot. Unrefrigerated insulin can be kept of 28 days as long as it stays in a cool and dark place.

    Where/how do I inject insulin?

    The best sites for insulin injection are in the subcutaneous tissue of the abdomen(avoid the area close to bellybutton) .Usually, you should not inject within 1 inch of the same site within 1 month. The arms and legs can also be used, but insulin uptake from these sites is less uniform. Insulin should be injected subcutaneously only with a U-100 insulin syringe. "B-D ultra-fine" insulin syringes are good. Insulin syringes are available without a prescription in many states. If you cant purchase the syringes at a pharmacy, you can mail order them. Using a syringe other than a specific insulin syringe is dangerous since it will be difficult to measure out the correct dosage.

    How much insulin should I take?

    I recommend never using over 10IU. 10IU is enough to make you grow.
    In general Dosages used are usually 1 IU per 20 pounds of lean bodyweight. So a 220lb bodybuilder with 9% body-fat would use 10iu of insulin(aprox200lb lean mass/20 = 10iu). But even experienced insulin users shouldn't use max dosage at the beginning of an insulin cycle. First-time users should start at a low dosage and gradually work up. For example, first begin with 2 IU and then increase the dosage by 1 IU every consecutive workout until you reach your calculated dose or determine a maximum personal dose(some people are more sensitive to insulin sides like hypoglycemia). This will allow the athlete to determine a dosage he can safely use. Insulin dosages can vary significantly among athletes and are dependent upon insulin sensitivity and the use of other drugs. Athletes using growth hormone and thyroid might have higher insulin requirements.


    When do I take insulin?

    It is my opinion that you should only take insulin after a work out, never before or when not working out, because before a work out you could crash and die during the workout and when your not working out it makes you fat. Some people disagree with this. IF you want, get some info from them and try it. But remember I told ya so.

    When do i eat after using insulin?

    Immediately!!! DO NOT TRY TO TIME YOUR CONSUMPTION OF CARBS!! You should immediately take a carbohydrate AND protein drink after taking you're insulin. I've stated this twice because it is very important. Even experienced insulin users can get a surprise now and then.
    Eat a meal at about an hour after using insulin. Consume another small high protein medium carb low fat meal at 2.5 hours after the injection. keep some gatoraid on hand just to make sure. Remember that insulin can still work much later so be careful and eat if you feel hypoglycemia symptoms.


    What do I eat after using insulin?

    Some people recommend a zero fat intake for 4 hours after taking insulin. I do not disagree with this. But if your bulking you can be a little relaxed on this. But high fat intake after taking insulin can lead to high body fat.
    The carb/protein drink taken after the insulin shot should contain AT LEAST 10 grams of carbs and 5 grams of quality protein per IU of insulin injected with little or no fat(creatine taken in this drink is optional but works great). Before an hour passes you should eat a normal balanced meal(high protein low fat with carbs). At 2.5 hours after the injection you should Consume a small meal. keep some gatoraid on hand just to make sure. Remember that insulin can still work much later so be careful and eat if you feel hypoglycemia symptoms. Once again i've stated this twice because it is important.

    ***Some insulin users recommend far less carbs than I have stated above. This is a personal decision you will have to make since it could be very dangerous...Even deadly! My opinion is to take the carbs and learn to diet after bulking if you gain too much fat.***

    How long should/can I take insulin?

    Short cycles please because you could have side effects. It is suspected that you could become an insulin dependant diabetic but I have never seen proof, but is it worth the risk? I would only use it a few times a week(maximum 4 on 3 off) for no more than 3/4 weeks.

    What should I avoid while using insulin?

    Do not use alcohol. It lowers blood sugar, and you may experience dangerously low blood sugar levels.
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    thanks for the post - i've read all that before but it doesnt completely address my questions

    1: does the ~10iu still apply for type 1 diabetics ie 10 extra units on top of usual post workout insulin

    2: i still dont know whether dextrose or maltodex is better (but id favour towards dextrose) but i'd probably add a banana

    3: how much carb and protein PWO?

    4: does creatine really make any difference bearing in mind how insulin works?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    thanks for the post - i've read all that before but it doesnt completely address my questions

    1: does the ~10iu still apply for type 1 diabetics ie 10 extra units on top of usual post workout insulin

    2: i still dont know whether dextrose or maltodex is better (but id favour towards dextrose) but i'd probably add a banana


    3: how much carb and protein PWO?

    4: does creatine really make any difference bearing in mind how insulin works?
    Do you want to die? eating either with just a banana will most certainly send you into hypglycemic shock.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Random181 View Post
    Do you want to die? eating either with just a banana will most certainly send you into hypglycemic shock.....
    sorry, can you elaborate? are we talking hyper or hypo?
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    LOL! sorry bro, I meant to say Hypo, thought the spelling looked a bit funny as I was typing...
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    it would be the same concept as a normal bb'er. but you will have to adjust your dosage to what your needs are. i would recomend using karbolyn for your post workout carb source. But to each his own.

    you need use a comensurate amount of slin to shuttle whatever amount of carbs your taking. Dont base yourself on a normal bb'er usage. You are not a normal bb'er. So if your post workout shake is 100g carbs just use whateve amount of humalog that you normaly would for a 100g carb meal.
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    if i take x grams of dextrose, why would i go hypo? assuming i match the insulin to the carbs wouldnt i be fine?
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    Subb'd. It'll either kill me or make me larger. Oh, by the way, since you can get Humulin-R OTC, is it expensive?
    "I am NOT an alcoholic. Alcoholics have a drinking problem. I ain't got no problem drinking!!"
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    Well, my post workout shake is

    3 scoops of protine, 1 scoop of dextrose, and 2 big bananas. any more carbs at the mo demands a butt load of insulin.... so i might drop the dextrose in favour of a slower carb
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    so what about drinking cokes with protein pwo after injection??? i know i know..some of yall are probably thinking coke..wtf. but i thought you wanted to flood your body with carbs after injection and i wanted to keep things cost effective. Asking because ive been doing this..so..if im being stupid..someone save me. i havent noticed any negative effects..just a bigger chest and more compliments .
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigmachiagg11 View Post
    so what about drinking cokes with protein pwo after injection??? i know i know..some of yall are probably thinking coke..wtf. but i thought you wanted to flood your body with carbs after injection and i wanted to keep things cost effective. Asking because ive been doing this..so..if im being stupid..someone save me. i havent noticed any negative effects..just a bigger chest and more compliments .
    How the hell does that taste? LOL...thanks for sharing that, that's interesting...anyone else? I was thinking of mixing my protein shake in Gatorade with the creatine and glutamine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ex-tightend83 View Post
    How the hell does that taste? LOL...thanks for sharing that, that's interesting...anyone else? I was thinking of mixing my protein shake in Gatorade with the creatine and glutamine.

    lol. it actually tastes really great..i didnt think so but thats all i had on me the first time to mix. dr. pepper and syntha six, mix, then add ice. it tastes like a dr. pepper float.
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    i've dropped the dextrose

    going for slower carbs now. aiming for ~80g but matching the insulin up much better. seems that dextrose is just too potent for me to regulate
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    i've dropped the dextrose

    going for slower carbs now. aiming for ~80g but matching the insulin up much better. seems that dextrose is just too potent for me to regulate
    This is interesting, since I'll be starting the insulin next week. What did you have in mind for the slower carbs? And thanks, everyone, for all of the GREAT info! Like I said, I'll either grow or die. But I'd prefer to grow. When you die, your gains stop. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
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    one thing to bear in mind, is that I need the insulin otherwise i'd so crazy hyperglycaemic

    so far, i'm doing 2-3 bananas (the K+ is ok because the Insulin drives the K+ into cells so no worry of hyperkalaemia) and a small brown roll then ~1-1.5hrs later I have dinner
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    Hey Mark, welcome to the type-1club. I have been a member for almost 5 years now.

    That insulin protocol is pretty much irrelevant for diabetics. As you have already discovered, dextrose and maltodextrin are too high GI to manage (seriously, if healthy people knew how bad this **** was for them...). Also, we have to take insulin with every meal, not just with one special one after a workout. Getting results from the gym is going to hinge on judicious planning for all meals.

    FWIW my shakes are:
    40g whey isolate
    1/2 cup Quaker oats
    100g frozen strawberries
    1 banana
    5g creatine (only supp I feel that is legit enough for the price)

    This comes out to 42g protein, 72g carbs, and 6g fat = 508 cals for which I need about 6 units of Novorapid (similar to Humalog) in one shot - no extra meals.

    However this is one of six meals and in the big picture all are important.

    Does this help?
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    Hi Nitrox

    nice to see another Type 1 here.

    I'm still unsure whether upping my whey content to 3 scoops (ie ~60g of protein) over the 40g makes any difference

    the oats is something i'm considering (will have to pack a whisk) and would be good as its less of a high GI value than the bananas.... might do a mix of the two

    thanks!

    NB: how long after the workout do you test your sugars? 1 or 2 hrs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Hi Nitrox

    nice to see another Type 1 here.

    I'm still unsure whether upping my whey content to 3 scoops (ie ~60g of protein) over the 40g makes any difference

    the oats is something i'm considering (will have to pack a whisk) and would be good as its less of a high GI value than the bananas.... might do a mix of the two

    thanks!

    NB: how long after the workout do you test your sugars? 1 or 2 hrs?
    The decision to up protein should be based on everything that you eat during the day. I follow a meal plan that is based around 3500 calories for bulking and have settled on a macronutrient ratio of 30P/40C/30F. I just add in the amounts till all the meals are about the same content wise. That way insuiln dosage remain constant.

    This kills 2 birds with one stone. Firstly it ensures that I get enough calories to get results from the gym and secondly it makes insulin requirements much more predictable. I highly recommend doing something similar if you are not already.

    Because of the meal plan I only have to test every second meal or so. So sometimes I test shortly after a workout and sometimes it may be several hours. Really just depends when I last happened to test. Of course if I get take out or have something that does not list the nutritional value, it is back to regular testing routine.
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    thanks nitrox, much appreciated

    i like your ratios and ideas about meal eating - us diabetics have to tackle these things differently
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