EPI + PCT Critique

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    EPI + PCT Critique


    Background Info: I'm 25 years old, been working out for 13 years, but serious lifting for 7 years. I'm 6' , 185lbs, 10% body fat. I'm a Certified Personal Trainer, a 3rd year Kinesiology student, and I have a very good diet. This is my first venture into a PH cycle, but I feel it's time. The whole time, I'll be taking a Multivitamin, EFA's, BCAA's, Cissus, and Glucosamine w/ Chondroitan

    After doing my research, my cycle looks like this so far, but I would like to hear any suggestions. (Like if I should do what others have and add Formex to weeks 1-4)

    PRIOR:
    Week 1 & 2 PRIOR to cycle: 1000mg Milk Thistle, 500mg Hawthorn Berry


    ON CYCLE:
    Week 1 - 4 (Possible 5)

    Week 1: Epistane - 20/20/20/30/30/30/30, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 2: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 3: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 4: Epistane - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    *Possible Week 5 - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)


    PCT:

    Week 5 - 10

    -Nolvadex: 20*/20/10/10 (* First 3 days at 40mg)
    -AI Post Cycle Support
    -Cycle Assist
    -Lean Xtreme:0/0/4/3/2/2
    -Formex: 25/50/50/25/0/0
    -Activate Xtreme
    -CEE

    Any help would be appreciated... Just trying to get this perfect before I start

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muay Thaiger View Post
    Background Info: I'm 25 years old, been working out for 13 years, but serious lifting for 7 years. I'm 6' , 185lbs, 10% body fat. I'm a Certified Personal Trainer, a 3rd year Kinesiology student, and I have a very good diet. This is my first venture into a PH cycle, but I feel it's time. The whole time, I'll be taking a Multivitamin, EFA's, and Glucosamine w/ Chondroitan

    After doing my research, my cycle looks like this so far, but I would like to hear any suggestions. (Like if I should do what others have and add Formex to weeks 1-4)

    PRIOR:
    Week 1 & 2 PRIOR to cycle: 1000mg Milk Thistle, 500mg Hawthorn Berry


    ON CYCLE:
    Week 1 - 4

    Week 1: Epistane - 20/20/20/30/30/30/30, IBE Cycle Support
    Week 2: Epistane - 30ED, IBE Cycle Support
    Week 3: Epistane - 30ED, IBE Cycle Support
    Week 4: Epistane - 40ED, IBE Cycle Support


    PCT:

    Week 5 - 8

    -Nolvadex: 20*/20/10/10 (* First 3 days at 40mg)
    -IBE Post Cycle Support:
    -Lean Xtreme:4/3/2/2
    -Formex: 25/50/50/25
    -Tribulous , tapering down (Undertermined Brand as of yet)... or should I use some other Test Booster?
    -CEE

    Week 9 - 10

    Post Cycle Support


    Any help would be appreciated... Just trying to get this perfect before I start
    Looks pretty good, man. Quick note - CS and PCS aren't made by IBE (AI). Also, I'd recommend either Activate Xtreme or NutraPlanet's Divanex instead of tribulus. You might also consider not starting the Lean Xtreme until about week 3 of your PCT. Your joints are likely to be suffering from the Epi as well as the formestane at cycle's end... plus cortisol levels aren't really a concern at the beginning of PCT.

    My $0.02
    RTR.
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    Oops, the IBE and AI thing was a mistake

    Thanks for the tips, I was thinking about Activate Xtreme (As well as Reversitol) but wanted to hear more opinions, so I'm glad it's one that you recommended.

    If I start the Lean Xtreme at Week 3 of my PCT, do I stop at the end of my 4th week when I stop the Nolva? Or do I use it for 4 weeks for example, from PCT week 3-6?

    Sorry for the annoying questions guys, I know these types of posts have been made to death, but I'm doing this for peace of mind lol. Thanks for understanding.
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    Since you're already solid with the nolvadex and Formex, I would definitely opt against the Reversitol. That would just be anti-estrogen overkill! As for the LX, I'd suggest continuing on for a full 4-week run. Actually, you might consider tapering off of it the final week(s)... as it tends to work a little too well at reducing cortisol. My joints get sore as hell on the recommended dosage.
    RTR.
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    I've ran havoc twice and expirmented with all the SERMS. I've also used Reversitol.

    IMHO, f*ck nolvadex...its worthless compared to Clomiphene Citrate(Clomid).

    Coming off of Havoc you are going to have Low Estrogen AND Low Testosterone. You want to get T production up as fast as possible....nolvadex is AWESOME at blocking estrogen receptors but makes most people have terrible libido problems and doesn't really help restart that great....

    Because E2 levels are low coming of the anti-estrogenic steroid, I'd use something like IBE Formestane at only 1/day along with 50mg of Clomid to help seriously restart you testicles. Clomid will almost 100% promise you a more than full recovery in a matter of weeks hands down compared to nolvadex. Theres a reason why clomid is used for male infertility/low-t restarts in the medical world as opposed to nolvadex. After 3 weeks at 50mg, Id drop down to 25mg for another week or two and maintain the formex at upped to 2pills/day for another 2-3 weeks dropping down to 1pill/day to counter any rebound.


    The goal here is to jump start you LH back up high and rebound your T while only slightly preventing aromatase so that your E can return with your T. Then once the T is back, prevent any overly high rebound of the E. Too many people does clomid way to high...theres no reason to run it 100mg...it quick acting and 50mg will make your balls huge. Its cheap as sh*t and is the MOST effective product at restarting testosterone. Reversitol is a waste of money if you have something powerful already like clomid.

    Hell if it was my cycle, I would continue clomid at 25mg for another month AFTER the first month of PCT just to have above normal testosterone levels to help maintain my gains.
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    Thanks for the input
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I've ran havoc twice and expirmented with all the SERMS. I've also used Reversitol.

    IMHO, f*ck nolvadex...its worthless compared to Clomiphene Citrate(Clomid).

    Coming off of Havoc you are going to have Low Estrogen AND Low Testosterone. You want to get T production up as fast as possible....nolvadex is AWESOME at blocking estrogen receptors but makes most people have terrible libido problems and doesn't really help restart that great....

    Because E2 levels are low coming of the anti-estrogenic steroid, I'd use something like IBE Formestane at only 1/day along with 50mg of Clomid to help seriously restart you testicles. Clomid will almost 100% promise you a more than full recovery in a matter of weeks hands down compared to nolvadex. Theres a reason why clomid is used for male infertility/low-t restarts in the medical world as opposed to nolvadex. After 3 weeks at 50mg, Id drop down to 25mg for another week or two and maintain the formex at upped to 2pills/day for another 2-3 weeks dropping down to 1pill/day to counter any rebound.


    The goal here is to jump start you LH back up high and rebound your T while only slightly preventing aromatase so that your E can return with your T. Then once the T is back, prevent any overly high rebound of the E. Too many people does clomid way to high...theres no reason to run it 100mg...it quick acting and 50mg will make your balls huge. Its cheap as sh*t and is the MOST effective product at restarting testosterone. Reversitol is a waste of money if you have something powerful already like clomid.

    Hell if it was my cycle, I would continue clomid at 25mg for another month AFTER the first month of PCT just to have above normal testosterone levels to help maintain my gains.
    I would agree with everything in your post, except for replacing the word clomid with toremifene. Clomid really phucked with my vision in a major way (only went up to 50mg), and the floaters were out of control.

    Not that I think the OP will need either. Nolvadex may cause some temporary libido issues as opposed to either clomid or toremifene, it will more than suffice. Nolva is also commonly used for male infertlity, and I've seen more than one blood test after a nolva PCT to suggest full recovery.
    RTR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubberring View Post
    I would agree with everything in your post, except for replacing the word clomid with toremifene. Clomid really phucked with my vision in a major way (only went up to 50mg), and the floaters were out of control.

    Not that I think the OP will need either. Nolvadex may cause some temporary libido issues as opposed to either clomid or toremifene, it will more than suffice. Nolva is also commonly used for male infertlity, and I've seen more than one blood test after a nolva PCT to suggest full recovery.
    nolvadex is very common for PCT....I just believe its better suited for preventing gyno rather than stimulating the production. I'm not saying that nolvadex wouldn't work for a mild compound like epistane. Toremifene is great also, but has AI properties, which would be unecessary coming off a cycle where estrogen is already low.

    I'm just speaking from MY personal experience on SERMS. I'm not knocking anyone elses opinion. I do realize some people have horrible sides on clomid, but I had terrible sides on nolva with not much result. Clomid made me horny, stronger, and I slept like a rock. Generally, the floaters and emotional sides come into play in doses like 100mg+.


    BTW, Im at the University of Alabama...we better destroy V-Tech. Roll Tide!
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I'm just speaking from MY personal experience on SERMS. I'm not knocking anyone elses opinion. I do realize some people have horrible sides on clomid, but I had terrible sides on nolva with not much result. Clomid made me horny, stronger, and I slept like a rock. Generally, the floaters and emotional sides come into play in doses like 100mg+.


    BTW, Im at the University of Alabama...we better destroy V-Tech. Roll Tide!
    Yeah, minus the eye situation, the rest of my body responded very well to clomid during the one PCT I ran it.

    Roll Tide!!! Are you originally from Alabama? I grew up in Mobile. I'm a little concerned about the o-line, but I expect McElroy to be nothing less than a stud. The defense is scary good... but they better come to play week in and week out. The cupboard's being stacked with talent, my friend. Next year looks like a real possibility for a nat'l championship run. Either way, I sense many BCS bowl games in the very near future... which is a much welcome change.

    Dude... come join the college football thread!
    RTR.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubberring View Post
    Yeah, minus the eye situation, the rest of my body responded very well to clomid during the one PCT I ran it.

    Roll Tide!!! Are you originally from Alabama? I grew up in Mobile. I'm a little concerned about the o-line, but I expect McElroy to be nothing less than a stud. The defense is scary good... but they better come to play week in and week out. The cupboard's being stacked with talent, my friend. Next year looks like a real possibility for a nat'l championship run. Either way, I sense many BCS bowl games in the very near future... which is a much welcome change.

    Dude... come join the college football thread!
    haha we just thread jacked lol. Yea I grew up in Birmingham. Hopefully McElroy can hold his own, Im hoping his lack of playing experience won't affect us too much. Based off the way we raped Clemson last year at the start of the season, things are looking good.

    BTW, there is some new freshmen Defensive Lineman...I don't know his name, but I do know he set the record for 225lb bench press 56 times.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I've ran havoc twice and expirmented with all the SERMS. I've also used Reversitol.

    IMHO, f*ck nolvadex...its worthless compared to Clomiphene Citrate(Clomid).

    Coming off of Havoc you are going to have Low Estrogen AND Low Testosterone. You want to get T production up as fast as possible....nolvadex is AWESOME at blocking estrogen receptors but makes most people have terrible libido problems and doesn't really help restart that great....
    i actually had blood work done while ON 50mg of epi and levels were still higher then normal they were about 40. so to be honest i dont think its that great at lowering e2
    Because E2 levels are low coming of the anti-estrogenic steroid, I'd use something like IBE Formestane at only 1/day along with 50mg of Clomid to help seriously restart you testicles. Clomid will almost 100% promise you a more than full recovery in a matter of weeks hands down compared to nolvadex. Theres a reason why clomid is used for male infertility/low-t restarts in the medical world as opposed to nolvadex. After 3 weeks at 50mg, Id drop down to 25mg for another week or two and maintain the formex at upped to 2pills/day for another 2-3 weeks dropping down to 1pill/day to counter any rebound.
    oh how true that statement is. however i would suggest an AI at low dose every night with the higher doses of clomid (100mg or 50mg)

    The goal here is to jump start you LH back up high and rebound your T while only slightly preventing aromatase so that your E can return with your T. Then once the T is back, prevent any overly high rebound of the E. Too many people does clomid way to high...theres no reason to run it 100mg...it quick acting and 50mg will make your balls huge. Its cheap as sh*t and is the MOST effective product at restarting testosterone. Reversitol is a waste of money if you have something powerful already like clomid.

    remember research grade is NOT pharma grade plus theres a difference in t levels coming back from under 100 by using 25mg clomid vs using 100mg clomid. start strong 100mg end low 50-25mg.

    Hell if it was my cycle, I would continue clomid at 25mg for another month AFTER the first month of PCT just to have above normal testosterone levels to help maintain my gains.
    4 weeks minimum on Clomid best ran for 6-8 weeks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by rubberring View Post
    I would agree with everything in your post, except for replacing the word clomid with toremifene. Clomid really phucked with my vision in a major way (only went up to 50mg), and the floaters were out of control.

    Not that I think the OP will need either. Nolvadex may cause some temporary libido issues as opposed to either clomid or toremifene, it will more than suffice. Nolva is also commonly used for male infertlity, and I've seen more than one blood test after a nolva PCT to suggest full recovery.
    for sure it CAN be used,

    however most studies show increase in LH and test as a secondary function to blocking e2 at the hypothalamus while clomid stimulates the pituitary.

    polus thats what clomids MAIN function is and its secondary as a SERM to bind to the ERa and act as an antagonist
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    is clomid really that effective at all in blocking the breast tissue? In an emergancy situation, would clomid help prevent gyno if nolvadex is not avail?
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    No its much much weaker then nolva torem and raloxifen. Raloxifen I believe is strongest at that
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    In emergency situation I would never opt for serm bc it doesn't correct the issue of high e2. It masks it. An AI is where u wanna be when that happens
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    In emergency situation I would never opt for serm bc it doesn't correct the issue of high e2. It masks it. An AI is where u wanna be when that happens
    yes, an AI treats the problem at its root, but doesn't that take longer to get the estrogen down then block it? If your having any problems/itching/swelling, wouldn't you take a SERM immediately to block the estrogen, and THEN take your AI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    yes, an AI treats the problem at its root, but doesn't that take longer to get the estrogen down then block it? If your having any problems/itching/swelling, wouldn't you take a SERM immediately to block the estrogen, and THEN take your AI.
    id say just about equal, i know within 24 hours tenderness is GONE from ADEXso why even bother with a SERM

    cholesterol? possibly but it wont fix the problem

    id never take a SERM then an AI

    id take a NON STEROIDAL AI then a SERM with a STEROIDAL AI (aromasin) then stop the STEROIDAL AI, and continue SERM for a week then stop.

    only when off cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    id say just about equal, i know within 24 hours tenderness is GONE from ADEXso why even bother with a SERM

    cholesterol? possibly but it wont fix the problem

    id never take a SERM then an AI

    id take a NON STEROIDAL AI then a SERM with a STEROIDAL AI (aromasin) then stop the STEROIDAL AI, and continue SERM for a week then stop.

    only when off cycle.
    hmm so letrozole or ADEX? Which one to have on standby during a cycle?
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    Adex
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    Haha nice thread jacking! LoL, just playing

    How should I dose my Activate Xtreme during my PCT?



    ALSO ... This is my updated schedule

    ON CYCLE:
    Week 1 - 4 (Possible 5)

    Week 1: Epistane - 20/20/20/30/30/30/30, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 2: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 3: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 4: Epistane - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    *Possible Week 5 - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)


    PCT:

    Week 5 - 10

    -Nolvadex: 20*/20/10/10 (* First 3 days at 40mg)
    -AI Post Cycle Support
    -Cycle Assist
    -Lean Xtreme:0/0/4/3/2/2
    -Formex: 25/50/50/25/0/0
    -Activate Xtreme
    -CEE
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muay Thaiger View Post
    Haha nice thread jacking! LoL, just playing

    How should I dose my Activate Xtreme during my PCT?



    ALSO ... This is my updated schedule

    ON CYCLE:
    Week 1 - 4 (Possible 5)

    Week 1: Epistane - 20/20/20/30/30/30/30, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 2: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 3: Epistane - 30ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    Week 4: Epistane - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)
    *Possible Week 5 - 40ED, AI Cycle Support (2scoops Split Morn and Night)


    PCT:

    Week 5 - 10

    -Nolvadex: 20*/20/10/10 (* First 3 days at 40mg)
    -AI Post Cycle Support
    -Cycle Assist
    -Lean Xtreme:0/0/4/3/2/2
    -Formex: 25/50/50/25/0/0
    -Activate Xtreme
    -CEE

    Formex is useless in the first month of pct IMO. Novla is already blocking you receptors and you want the estrogen to return ASAP for IGF-1 and joints/libido.

    Use nolva at least 20/20/20/10....I think people are overestimating the ease of epistane recovery. Honestly I would use clomid.

    Formex like this 0/0/0/25/50/50/25

    So you as you loose the pretection from estrogen that floating around by dropping the SERM, you'll pick up with the Formex to kill the aromatase...then you'll ramp up to cover you once you are completely off the SERM and unprotected. Another week at 50mg to stimulate more T production, and then a nice taper down to ward off rebound.

    The whole idea is to have the SERM restart your T and let your hormones do what they want...your body will try to establish its own T/E ratio if you let it. If you introduce an AI too soon you'll throw off the process because the body will have low estrogen while trying to restart its T levels. This is especially important considering you have just come off a non-aromatizing compound.
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    Makes sense, I'll take the Formex like you mentioned (0/0/0/25/50/50/25)

    You said take Nolva at least 20/20/10/10 , but I already said that's what I'm doing?

    And I still need to know how to dose the Activate Xtreme
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muay Thaiger View Post
    Makes sense, I'll take the Formex like you mentioned (0/0/0/25/50/50/25)

    You said take Nolva at least 20/20/10/10 , but I already said that's what I'm doing?

    And I still need to know how to dose the Activate Xtreme
    no i said 20/20/20/10
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    can i trust most of the online suppliers when buying a serm like clomid or nolva?? also would the generic brands work?? that is what most of them are offering
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfe14 View Post
    can i trust most of the online suppliers when buying a serm like clomid or nolva?? also would the generic brands work?? that is what most of them are offering
    I can't really comment on that....I wouldn't say to trust MOST...you just need to find the least sketchy looking website.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I can't really comment on that....I wouldn't say to trust MOST...you just need to find the least sketchy looking website.
    thanks dude, most are offering generic...will that suffice or no?
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfe14 View Post
    thanks dude, most are offering generic...will that suffice or no?
    yes, but generic tamoxifene citrate is less potent per MG by like 5mg then brand name nolvadex. I don't know about the others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    no i said 20/20/20/10
    Ohhh, my bad
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    Have you had it tested ??? because if not then you are simply just assuming, and coming up with a random number.
    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    yes, but generic tamoxifene citrate is less potent per MG by like 5mg then brand name nolvadex. I don't know about the others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by M16 View Post
    Have you had it tested ??? because if not then you are simply just assuming, and coming up with a random number.
    Excuse me????

    My package says, "Each tablet contains 30.4mg of tamoxifen citrate, equivalent to 20mg of tamoxifen."

    meaning, that the generic I have is dosed at 30mg/pill to equal the strength of a 20mg nolva pill.
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    Ahh I see...I missed this point. I thought you were speaking of Research tamoxifen.
    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    Excuse me????

    My package says, "Each tablet contains 30.4mg of tamoxifen citrate, equivalent to 20mg of tamoxifen."

    meaning, that the generic I have is dosed at 30mg/pill to equal the strength of a 20mg nolva pill.
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    Quick Update:

    I just finished day 17 of 28, I'm up 6lbs (but I'm also eating more) and strength is also up.

    I have no ball shinkage or other signs of shutdown as far as I can tell.

    (I took 20 mg for the first 2 days, then 30 for the rest of week 1.... Then 30mg for all of week 2, and now I'm on 40mg for week 3, and will continue this through week 4)
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    I realize I'm 8 months behind this thread but I'm interested in how it turned out ... care to fill me in? I'm wanting to do an Epi cycle and I've already got my bottle. Now I'm begining to gather all my other essentials. Thanks!

    Tacoreaper
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    First off is this you first cycle ? What dosages do you plan to run ? Essentials durng the cycle IMO are.


    Liv52
    Milk Thistle
    Cranberry Extract
    Hawthorn Berries
    Coq10
    Mutli
    Etc Etc...

    PCT on Epi is generally not that bad and in my opinion is easier to recover from.
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    I was going to follow Neoborn's plan. There were a lot of good replies to his thread and everything that I have researched is pretty close to his plan or a close variation too his plan. I've done cycles in the past, all had great or pretty good results and was very lucky nothing bad happened post. I did PH cycles back when they were legal with not a lot of PCT. I've learned! I'm undecided as to which SERM to use because there are soooooo many view points on both Nolva and Clomid.

    Here is a question you don't normally read but if you can answer I'd appreciate it. I was diagnosed with Narrow Angle Glaucoma and since have had the laser procedure to correct the problem. I've read the Clomid can have an effect with floaters in the eyes ... does or could this have an effect with my Glaucoma? I mean everything is fine now with my eyes but could something happen to them if I was to take Clomid for PCT?

    Tacoreaper
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    I doubt it...Most of the sides related to clomid is due to the fact that it is grossly over used in Bodybuilding...A dose of 25mgs ED is huge dose in terms of stimulating the HPTA and with little to no side effects.
  

  
 

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