[Force of Green]

I asked around and many people said that Havoc and Epistane are the same and practically interchangeable. Others said that the effects are slightly different and those who did run both and could tell the difference, I now conclude why. I had a bottle of Epistane that I purchased from NP and a bottle I had around of Havoc. I tried intermixing them and adjusting the dose of each one. I had 40 mgs total daily intake and I would try some days of:

20 Havoc, 20 Epistane.
10 mg Havoc, 30 mg Epistane
30 mg Havoc, 10 mg Epistane
0 mg Havoc, 40 mg Epistane
40 mg Havoc, 0 mg Epistane

These compounds are NOT the same. I don't care what the labels say.

When I had the larger amounts of Epistane, I felt good, positive, dry, and my energy levels weren't effected.

When I had the compounds run half and half, I'd have a really sluggish morning if I took the doses of Havoc in the evening and at night of the previous day.

When I ran all Epistane, everything was fine. Good mood, great pumps, and stable energy, blood pressure was fine.

When I ran all Havoc, my moods were very down, I was severely lethargic and droopy, my muscles were pumped though and I could muster up energy for the workouts, but my overall mood and motivation, energy, and... to be frank... life sucked! lol

There were no other contributing factors. I threw the rest of the Havoc away. Life has been fine and whatnot, my physique is fine, it was just the nasty sides of the Havoc that made me feel piss poor.

I'm not trying to rag on Havoc, some love it. I've tried it before because it came out before Epistane and I thought they were the same. Come to think of it, I tried to attribute my sluggishness to allergies the last time I cycled it, but the Havoc had me feeling annoyed and lethargic before too.

I remember a time when people were ragging on IBE for putting off the release of Epistane and saying, "RPN released Havoc first! It's the same thing!" Well, it's NOT.

[neoborn]

It's nice to see that people have the sense to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions, even when sometimes the majority may believe otherwise!

I commend you for your testing and taking the time to see what would happen in real time / real life experience!

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.s +Rep when I can. Your honest opinion is appreciated.

[Force of Green]

I figured I'd put the both of them to the test and clear it up for myself, therefore I might as well share with the rest. On the days that I was on the Havoc alone or Mostly Havoc, people would ask if I just woke up because I looked like hell.

[Jayhawkk]

I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.

[Jayhawkk]

P.s +Rep when I can. Truth is a beautiful thing.

Opinions can be a beautiful thing but let's not turn these into magical facts that have no basis in science, controlled or otherwise.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

Opinions can be a beautiful thing but let's not turn these into magical facts that have no basis in science, controlled or otherwise.

I love pseudoscience.

[bpmartyr]

Originally Posted by thesinner

I love pseudoscience.

I love anything flavored with pseudo. Gets me all hot and bothered (in a good way).

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

I asked around and many people said that Havoc and Epistane are the same and practically interchangeable. Others said that the effects are slightly different and those who did run both and could tell the difference, I now conclude why. I had a bottle of Epistane that I purchased from NP and a bottle I had around of Havoc. I tried intermixing them and adjusting the dose of each one. I had 40 mgs total daily intake and I would try some days of:

20 Havoc, 20 Epistane.
10 mg Havoc, 30 mg Epistane
30 mg Havoc, 10 mg Epistane
0 mg Havoc, 40 mg Epistane
40 mg Havoc, 0 mg Epistane

These compounds are NOT the same. I don't care what the labels say.

When I had the larger amounts of Epistane, I felt good, positive, dry, and my energy levels weren't effected.

When I had the compounds run half and half, I'd have a really sluggish morning if I took the doses of Havoc in the evening and at night of the previous day.

When I ran all Epistane, everything was fine. Good mood, great pumps, and stable energy, blood pressure was fine.

When I ran all Havoc, my moods were very down, I was severely lethargic and droopy, my muscles were pumped though and I could muster up energy for the workouts, but my overall mood and motivation, energy, and... to be frank... life sucked! lol

There were no other contributing factors. I threw the rest of the Havoc away. Life has been fine and whatnot, my physique is fine, it was just the nasty sides of the Havoc that made me feel piss poor.

I'm not trying to rag on Havoc, some love it. I've tried it before because it came out before Epistane and I thought they were the same. Come to think of it, I tried to attribute my sluggishness to allergies the last time I cycled it, but the Havoc had me feeling annoyed and lethargic before too.

I remember a time when people were ragging on IBE for putting off the release of Epistane and saying, "RPN released Havoc first! It's the same thing!" Well, it's NOT.

There are infinitely many contributing factors.

Epistane and Havoc are the same compound, but at different purities. I do believe there are some FTIR's to prove it.

[macedaddy]

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.

although it is hardly "scientific" each supplement affects us in their own way, and it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what works best for our individual bodies.

I never took him as saying EPISTANE was the end all for epithio (sp?) But, his feedback should be taken as it is.......his personal feedback.

sinner gave a good analogy about the 2 compounds awhile ago, and i will let him elaborate on it, since he is in here.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by macedaddy

although it is hardly "scientific" each supplement affects us in their own way, and it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what works best for our individual bodies.

I never took him as saying EPISTANE was the end all for epithio (sp?) But, his feedback should be taken as it is.......his personal feedback.

sinner gave a good analogy about the 2 compounds awhile ago, and i will let him elaborate on it, since he is in here.

The beer one?

Here it is:

Originally Posted by thesinner

I understand what you're getting at with epistane/havoc/etc. but think of it like beer:

Miller Lite, Bud Light, and Natty Light are all beers. Give them to a beer drinker and he can almost immediately tell the difference between the three (unless he's had a few too many already). They all have slightly different alcohol content. Some people prefer Bud Light over Miller Lite, while some prefer Miller to Bud. My old boss prefer's Natty (this tends to imply alcoholism). The bottom line, if I give you a case of any of these three: it will get you drunk! You might prefer to get drunk off one over the other, but if you drink it, the impaired speach and blurred vision will come!

Though these guys are all a little different, they're an attempt at the same compound, just some have more of the crappy isomer than others: those ones can be the Natty Light in the analogy

[macedaddy]

yep that one!

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.

I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.

Your 'test' has no means of being sure that the Havoc is what made you feel like crap, though.

It is in my understanding that Epistane has a higher concentration of the "good isomer" (two isomers form in the synthesis of this, and one of them is seriously like 20x less potent).

By starting with Epistane and finishing up with Havoc, you are in turn getting less and less of the "good isomer" as the cycle progresses. You feel like crap on Havoc? Of course, you're body has gotten accustomed to getting more of the active than you're giving it that final week.

Your testing method is flawed. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth. A much more conclusive and valid method would have been to do two separate cycles of each compound.