How can people say Epistane and Havoc are the same?

Force of Green

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I asked around and many people said that Havoc and Epistane are the same and practically interchangeable. Others said that the effects are slightly different and those who did run both and could tell the difference, I now conclude why. I had a bottle of Epistane that I purchased from NP and a bottle I had around of Havoc. I tried intermixing them and adjusting the dose of each one. I had 40 mgs total daily intake and I would try some days of:

20 Havoc, 20 Epistane.
10 mg Havoc, 30 mg Epistane
30 mg Havoc, 10 mg Epistane
0 mg Havoc, 40 mg Epistane
40 mg Havoc, 0 mg Epistane

These compounds are NOT the same. I don't care what the labels say.

When I had the larger amounts of Epistane, I felt good, positive, dry, and my energy levels weren't effected.

When I had the compounds run half and half, I'd have a really sluggish morning if I took the doses of Havoc in the evening and at night of the previous day.

When I ran all Epistane, everything was fine. Good mood, great pumps, and stable energy, blood pressure was fine.

When I ran all Havoc, my moods were very down, I was severely lethargic and droopy, my muscles were pumped though and I could muster up energy for the workouts, but my overall mood and motivation, energy, and... to be frank... life sucked! lol

There were no other contributing factors. I threw the rest of the Havoc away. Life has been fine and whatnot, my physique is fine, it was just the nasty sides of the Havoc that made me feel piss poor.

I'm not trying to rag on Havoc, some love it. I've tried it before because it came out before Epistane and I thought they were the same. Come to think of it, I tried to attribute my sluggishness to allergies the last time I cycled it, but the Havoc had me feeling annoyed and lethargic before too.

I remember a time when people were ragging on IBE for putting off the release of Epistane and saying, "RPN released Havoc first! It's the same thing!" Well, it's NOT.
 
neoborn

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It's nice to see that people have the sense to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions, even when sometimes the majority may believe otherwise!

I commend you for your testing and taking the time to see what would happen in real time / real life experience!

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.s +Rep when I can. Your honest opinion is appreciated.
 
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Force of Green

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I figured I'd put the both of them to the test and clear it up for myself, therefore I might as well share with the rest. On the days that I was on the Havoc alone or Mostly Havoc, people would ask if I just woke up because I looked like hell.
 
Jayhawkk

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I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.
 
Jayhawkk

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P.s +Rep when I can. Truth is a beautiful thing.
Opinions can be a beautiful thing but let's not turn these into magical facts that have no basis in science, controlled or otherwise.
 
bpmartyr

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thesinner

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I asked around and many people said that Havoc and Epistane are the same and practically interchangeable. Others said that the effects are slightly different and those who did run both and could tell the difference, I now conclude why. I had a bottle of Epistane that I purchased from NP and a bottle I had around of Havoc. I tried intermixing them and adjusting the dose of each one. I had 40 mgs total daily intake and I would try some days of:

20 Havoc, 20 Epistane.
10 mg Havoc, 30 mg Epistane
30 mg Havoc, 10 mg Epistane
0 mg Havoc, 40 mg Epistane
40 mg Havoc, 0 mg Epistane

These compounds are NOT the same. I don't care what the labels say.

When I had the larger amounts of Epistane, I felt good, positive, dry, and my energy levels weren't effected.

When I had the compounds run half and half, I'd have a really sluggish morning if I took the doses of Havoc in the evening and at night of the previous day.

When I ran all Epistane, everything was fine. Good mood, great pumps, and stable energy, blood pressure was fine.

When I ran all Havoc, my moods were very down, I was severely lethargic and droopy, my muscles were pumped though and I could muster up energy for the workouts, but my overall mood and motivation, energy, and... to be frank... life sucked! lol

There were no other contributing factors. I threw the rest of the Havoc away. Life has been fine and whatnot, my physique is fine, it was just the nasty sides of the Havoc that made me feel piss poor.

I'm not trying to rag on Havoc, some love it. I've tried it before because it came out before Epistane and I thought they were the same. Come to think of it, I tried to attribute my sluggishness to allergies the last time I cycled it, but the Havoc had me feeling annoyed and lethargic before too.

I remember a time when people were ragging on IBE for putting off the release of Epistane and saying, "RPN released Havoc first! It's the same thing!" Well, it's NOT.
There are infinitely many contributing factors.

Epistane and Havoc are the same compound, but at different purities. I do believe there are some FTIR's to prove it.
 

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I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.
although it is hardly "scientific" each supplement affects us in their own way, and it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what works best for our individual bodies.

I never took him as saying EPISTANE was the end all for epithio (sp?) But, his feedback should be taken as it is.......his personal feedback.

sinner gave a good analogy about the 2 compounds awhile ago, and i will let him elaborate on it, since he is in here.
 
thesinner

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although it is hardly "scientific" each supplement affects us in their own way, and it is up to each of us to decide for ourselves what works best for our individual bodies.

I never took him as saying EPISTANE was the end all for epithio (sp?) But, his feedback should be taken as it is.......his personal feedback.

sinner gave a good analogy about the 2 compounds awhile ago, and i will let him elaborate on it, since he is in here.
The beer one?

Here it is:
I understand what you're getting at with epistane/havoc/etc. but think of it like beer:

Miller Lite, Bud Light, and Natty Light are all beers. Give them to a beer drinker and he can almost immediately tell the difference between the three (unless he's had a few too many already). They all have slightly different alcohol content. Some people prefer Bud Light over Miller Lite, while some prefer Miller to Bud. My old boss prefer's Natty (this tends to imply alcoholism). The bottom line, if I give you a case of any of these three: it will get you drunk! You might prefer to get drunk off one over the other, but if you drink it, the impaired speach and blurred vision will come!

Though these guys are all a little different, they're an attempt at the same compound, just some have more of the crappy isomer than others: those ones can be the Natty Light in the analogy
 
Force of Green

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I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.
I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.
 
thesinner

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I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.
Your 'test' has no means of being sure that the Havoc is what made you feel like crap, though.

It is in my understanding that Epistane has a higher concentration of the "good isomer" (two isomers form in the synthesis of this, and one of them is seriously like 20x less potent).

By starting with Epistane and finishing up with Havoc, you are in turn getting less and less of the "good isomer" as the cycle progresses. You feel like crap on Havoc? Of course, you're body has gotten accustomed to getting more of the active than you're giving it that final week.

Your testing method is flawed. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's the truth. A much more conclusive and valid method would have been to do two separate cycles of each compound.
 
Dr Packenwood

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The beer one?

Here it is:
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to thesinner again.

I've been wondering this since I started lurking around AM some time ago.

Like I've said to myself 1,000,000 times...nearly every question I've ever had has been answered eventually at AM.
 
neoborn

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I was taking this at face value of what it is "personal opinion" or "personal experience" not "clinical trial" just so you guys know :)

I have read multiple people say that Havoc felt different in this way than Epi, this is not to negate Havoc at all but to only to make a point that there maybe something to this if enough people feel this way. I know you guys may feel like getting into a "clinical trial" type topic with double blind studies, placebo talk etc but I'm just taking what he says at face value. No magical facts here, truth is also relative to perspective in some cases.

Much Love,

Neoborn
 
B5150

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Though his testing method is less than scientific his anecdotal evidence and his conclusion may be accurate.
It's the same thing!" Well, it's NOT.
It is in my understanding that Epistane has a higher concentration of the "good isomer" (two isomers form in the synthesis of this, and one of them is seriously like 20x less potent).

A much more conclusive and valid method would have been to do two separate cycles of each compound.
Different levels of different isomers means it is not the same.

There are different grades of aluminum and steel. There are different levels of different alloys that produce different characteristics and properties. Two materials may be aluminum and two materials may be steel but their alloys (or in this analogy 'isomers') make them night and day different in their performance in their intended applications.

Based on the data about the different levels of different isomers it is indeed obvious that they are not the same. He may have expressed opinion based on anecdotal evidence but if isomers are different then they are just not the same.
 
Jayhawkk

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Yeah but how we feel shouldn't be the deciding factor on if a product is valid. Especially when mixing the cycles.
 

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I think feeling is a MAJOR indicator of whether I will use a product again! If I feel like sh!t or perceive that I feel like sh!t, I WILL NOT use the said product again.
 
thesinner

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Though his testing method is less than scientific his anecdotal evidence and his conclusion may be accurate.Different levels of different isomers means it is not the same.

There are different grades of aluminum and steel. There are different levels of different alloys that produce different characteristics and properties. Two materials may be aluminum and two materials may be steel but their alloys (or in this analogy 'isomers') make them night and day different in their performance in their intended applications.

Based on the data about the different levels of different isomers it is indeed obvious that they are not the same. He may have expressed opinion based on anecdotal evidence but if isomers are different then they are just not the same.
I'll agree that they're not the same quality, but they are the same thing (see beer analogy). There's different grades of steel, but whatever AISI# may be, it's still steel.

What I'm saying is that you can't build a stucture half from AISI 1144 and the other from AISI 1009, and when you're stucture falls apart, call one of the grades 'not steel'. Which is how I was interpretting it.

I guess I see what you're getting at now, though.
 
Jayhawkk

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Feeling like **** without knowing for sure what is causing it. If I came on to AX forums and said "productX" x sucked ass because I felt like total **** on it...You would want to know my routine,diet, stress factors, other supplimentation etc before just allowing that type of comment to fly.

We need to look at what we would accept as proof and substance ourselves and not just use those standards when dealing with products we personally stand behind or believe in. This needs to be a standard across the board, regardless of product.
 
RoadBlocK

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Interesting little experiment. Of course you are entitled to draw your own conclusions and posting your feelings may help someone else out in the future when on thier cycle.

If I may add my feelings to your thread, I thought Havoc was fantastic, I ran it at 40mg and loved everyday of it, I got none of the "ill" effects you have describe from it. I have no hidden agenda, I dont work for any companies and owe no loyalty to anyone imparticular. I also bought a nice little supply of ibe epistane, which Im looking forward to taking down the road, but right now Im running a log of a couple of bottles of GL epithin-e which I got for free and has been going great overall, until I hit 60mg/day, and now Im gettin' what appear to be some of the nasty side effects that you were apparently getting.

I cant argue about product a=b and b=c, and what product is what, Im not a scientist, I have no gas chromatograph, I have no tools to measure a,b and c for similarities. For me its like it is for you, how I feel, and I feel the products are the same and for me its clear that I have found that 40mg of havoc/epithin-e/epistane is the sweet spot and anything more can cause problems.
 
Jayhawkk

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Which is why I value opinion and I always take them into consideration but not each opinion is equal and each of us have to decide who's we take into consideration. We have to be careful in that regard, in not making a opinion turn into a fact. that is all I am saying.
 

macedaddy

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Feeling like **** without knowing for sure what is causing it. If I came on to AX forums and said "productX" x sucked ass because I felt like total **** on it...You would want to know my routine,diet, stress factors, other supplimentation etc before just allowing that type of comment to fly.

We need to look at what we would accept as proof and substance ourselves and not just use those standards when dealing with products we personally stand behind or believe in. This needs to be a standard across the board, regardless of product.
i agree! But, i think there is too much scrutiny being placed on FOG. He stated his opinion about the products. He will not do havoc again. I have also tried both products. I have already made my conclusions based on my own experience.

But, yes, i would want to know diet, stress, other supps, etc....I took it for granted when he said all other factors were the same. I have interacted with FOG enough off the board to have just taken him at his word, but like i said, i already have my opinion and that is why dismissed his as his opinion.

If some newb came on here and read only his post and never tried havoc, that would be a disservice to Havoc.
 
Jayhawkk

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His over-all tone wasn't bad at all. It was certain sentences worded in such a way that your average reader could take as 'truth' if you will.
 
B5150

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Yeah but how we feel shouldn't be the deciding factor on if a product is valid.
Agreed. They are both valid in their own respect. They are also different as the isomer are different. I believe that this is a valid and (the) accurate difference between them. They both may be an epi isomer but their different ratios of and/or isomers obviously makes their characteristics a different experience in and for some. I imagine that taking one and then the other consecutively is a valid method of taking into account their mood altering differences as well, though not very conclusive, quite an accurate account of the anecdotal perception.

I have said this to some before and I will state it now; the superdrol I beta tested IS NOT the same superdrol that I (and everyone else) used when it was released. Anecdotally they behaved completely different. I suspect that they are 'technically' the same active, but I also suspect that when the product went from beta to release they encorporated (or resulted in) a different synthesis process when going into mass production. Beta superdrol was a feel good, super-well-being, confidence boosting anabolic when I tested it and it is now a lethargic, negatively mood altering chemical that also happens to produce the same anabolic effects that it did when I tested it.
We need to look at what we would accept as proof and substance ourselves and not just use those standards when dealing with products we personally stand behind or believe in. This needs to be a standard across the board, regardless of product.
I don't have data or samples of beta tester material to do a comparative of the chemicals (nor am I making any defamatory statement in any direction) but I 'feel' different when using it and there is a reason.

I would also imagine that this would apply to the differences in these clones that we see and the people responding the way they do in both mood and results.
 
RenegadeRows

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Theres so many factors, I have to agree with jayhawwk.

although i appreciate the OP's feedback, the products were mixed. two seperate cycles would have been preferable, but there is still many factors, including personal life issues, diet, weather, etc.
 
Force of Green

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I have no issues with RPN or IBE. I tried DCP and thought it had good 'damage control' effects.

I got Havoc when it came out to see if it would reduce some gyno. Everyone was bashing IBE for delaying the release of Epistane and saying that 'RPN did it before you! It's the same!' I kept my mouth shut for the most part and gave RPN the benefit of the doubt. I tried it at 20 mg per day and then at 40 mg per day in divided doses. At 20 mg it didn't do much for me except for a bit of a pump and did nothing for the slight gyno. At 40 mg I felt sluggish. I tried to just blame it on other things, but there weren't many things to point fingers at (ex. maybe it's a delayed allergy season? maybe there's a cold going around? maybe I need a new mattress? maybe I need to get laid?) Sooo... whatever, I still had another bottle to save.

I tried running the both, since they're both the same in different ways. Diet habits are all in check, I take tons of different anti-oxidants, etc... sleep is great, stress is fine, blah blah blah... these were my findings.

Take it for what it is, or take it for nothing at all.

Oh... and as far as me favoring a company over another, I don't beg for free products like a free-loader, I don't rep any company, and I have no reason to attack anyone or anything.

I gave both products a shot with an open-mind, although I'll be sticking with Epistane from now on. When I run Epistane solo, I'll post my results/thoughts if you'd like... Another reason I gave these products a shot is because of the safety profile in the write-ups. I give certain people like Dr. D the benefit of the doubt and some respected members of AM give me advice from time to time.
 
LakeMountD

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I think feeling is a MAJOR indicator of whether I will use a product again! If I feel like sh!t or perceive that I feel like sh!t, I WILL NOT use the said product again.
Everytime someone brings what you just said up I think back to M1T and cringe lol.
 
gogo

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Havoc also made me very sluggish at 30 and 40mg/day. I have yet to try epistane though so i have nothing to compare it with. Hopefully i will gather some funds together for a bottle after i finished paying tuition ect and run a log to compare.
 
neoborn

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I must say given the responses of some ( nooooo not you Jay :D ) that I decided to go back and word my response a little differently.

I changed it from:

"Truth is a beautiful thing" to "Your honest opinion is appreciated."

So as not to lead anyone astray by my wording.

Much Love to joo awl!

Neoborn
 
cavefish

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I had a similar experience when I ran Havoc for 4 weeks followed immediately by Epistane for 4 weeks. Yes thats 8 weeks total straight through @ 40mg ED, yes I'm still alive and my bloodwork looked excellent following a proper post cycle therapy.

Now I felt that I had pretty good gains on both or either of them so thats not really the issue. On the Havoc I did notice I felt much more sluggish and lethargic and generally hated life moreso than when I was on the Epistane.

That's just my personal experience from using both of them and I imagine different people will have different results since theres no way to tell how you respond to a certain substance before trying it firsthand. But I will say theres only one product I'll continue using and recommending to other people.
 
vcon13

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Listen to your body bro. You know your body better than anyone. You are your best test. Bodybuilding would be nowhere without science, but it would also be nowhere without experimentation and personal feedback. People have reported good results with both products.

I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.
 
vcon13

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I wish they had mods like you on BB.com.

I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.
 
Force of Green

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Listen to your body bro. You know your body better than anyone. You are your best test. Bodybuilding would be nowhere without science, but it would also be nowhere without experimentation and personal feedback. BTW I love your analogy about x and y. Perfect example.
Thanks bro. I am in no way against RPN... and I have been wondering when they're going to release NOxidant again (I thought they were)... I feel that Havoc has more of a tendency to manifest unwanted sides and the effects as far as strength and size are equivalent, so why wouldn't the consumer pay the same price for the purest?

The consumer can draw his or her own conclusion or can chose to ignore my review/opinion completely. It's all good. But my experiences may be able to benefit someone that's confused about the 2.
 

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Thanks bro. I am in no way against RPN... and I have been wondering when they're going to release NOxidant again (I thought they were)... I feel that Havoc has more of a tendency to manifest unwanted sides and the effects as far as strength and size are equivalent, so why wouldn't the consumer pay the same price for the purest?

The consumer can draw his or her own conclusion or can chose to ignore my review/opinion completely. It's all good. But my experiences may be able to benefit someone that's confused about the 2.
Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?
 
Force of Green

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Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?
I may have mentioned that maybe one can draw his or her own conclusions from my experience, or can choose to ignore it completely. I'm not saying one will work better for the next person or the one after, but if a lot of people are having similar experiences than the only way to find out is by posting how a formula has effected one another.

Or, fitnecise... we can all shut the hell up with our experiences and that would get all of us no where, fast. I expressed my opinions with what I did and why I said what I said, etc.

As far as purity correlating with 'feeling better'... I'm going to make a statement from a logical point of view with limited knowledge on molecular science... maybe someone can chime in... But if a molecule is synthesized to mimic a vital hormone in the human body, the percentile that may be 'impure' my represent a completely different isomer and if this impurity were to be activated, the effects would express themselves. Since testosterone therapy also modifies behavioral patterns in men, this may explain the feelings of dysphoria and other unwanted emotions.

Just my guess? But like I said, take it for what it's worth.
 

fitnecise

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I may have mentioned that maybe one can draw his or her own conclusions from my experience, or can choose to ignore it completely. I'm not saying one will work better for the next person or the one after, but if a lot of people are having similar experiences than the only way to find out is by posting how a formula has effected one another.

Or, fitnecise... we can all shut the hell up with our experiences and that would get all of us no where, fast. I expressed my opinions with what I did and why I said what I said, etc.

As far as purity correlating with 'feeling better'... I'm going to make a statement from a logical point of view with limited knowledge on molecular science... maybe someone can chime in... But if a molecule is synthesized to mimic a vital hormone in the human body, the percentile that may be 'impure' my represent a completely different isomer and if this impurity were to be activated, the effects would express themselves. Since testosterone therapy also modifies behavioral patterns in men, this may explain the feelings of dysphoria and other unwanted emotions.

Just my guess? But like I said, take it for what it's worth.
I should mention I am affiliated with RPN, I forgot I am not marked on this board.

I did not mean to ridicule you for sharing, I am bitter that people assume Epistane is more pure because IBE shared a cover letter and no results. I am not here to argue but I won't stand for this accusation to continue without substantiation.

Your isomer theory is plausable but it means either product could be of less purity. It is also possible that you had hormone shifts at the points when you switched product dominance, as doses accumulated. I wish you had run them as separate cycles to compare.
 
Force of Green

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I should mention I am affiliated with RPN, I forgot I am not marked on this board.

I did not mean to ridicule you for sharing, I am bitter that people assume Epistane is more pure because IBE shared a cover letter and no results. I am not here to argue but I won't stand for this accusation to continue without substantiation.

Your isomer theory is plausable but it means either product could be of less purity. It is also possible that you had hormone shifts at the points when you switched product dominance, as doses accumulated. I wish you had run them as separate cycles to compare.
I love DCP, although I haven't taken it in a long time. You're 100% right about the whole 'either could be less pure' thing.

I have a feeling that I will not be using prohormones again... prohormones, pro-steroids... whatever we call them. Atleast not for some time.

I have run Havoc solo before and experienced slight depression, lethargy, slowed and distorted thought process, trouble waking up in the morning, and overall disgust for life.

All in all, I can't sway facts towards one product or the other. I did not run lab tests on them and I did not create them. I can only share my history, experience, and results with the utmost of honesty and unbiased hypotheses.
 
LakeMountD

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Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?
I left this alone but since you seem to keep bringing this up I will say plenty of results were offered. It isn't my fault you are in denial about a what a PhD in forensic toxicology stated. We even offered to pay for someone from Ergo to talk with him.

Just let it go, really who cares anymore. Both products are doing fine.
 
Force of Green

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Hey, I just gave my two-bits worth from my experience. I said what I said, and I respond to something that's asked.
 

fitnecise

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I left this alone but since you seem to keep bringing this up I will say plenty of results were offered. It isn't my fault you are in denial about a what a PhD in forensic toxicology stated. We even offered to pay for someone from Ergo to talk with him.

Just let it go, really who cares anymore. Both products are doing fine.
I obviously have a response but I will take the high road and leave. bye
 
neoborn

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I obviously have a response but I will take the high road and leave. bye
Real men are few and far between +Rep. Good job on "man'ing it up!"

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.S Force I don't think LMD's comment was directed at you bro :D
 
Force of Green

Force of Green

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Real men are few and far between +Rep. Good job on "man'ing it up!"

Much Love,

Neoborn

P.S Force I don't think LMD's comment was directed at you bro :D
Yay. :whiner:
 

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