[gogo]

Havoc also made me very sluggish at 30 and 40mg/day. I have yet to try epistane though so i have nothing to compare it with. Hopefully i will gather some funds together for a bottle after i finished paying tuition ect and run a log to compare.

[neoborn]

I must say given the responses of some ( nooooo not you Jay ) that I decided to go back and word my response a little differently.

I changed it from:

"Truth is a beautiful thing" to "Your honest opinion is appreciated."

So as not to lead anyone astray by my wording.

Much Love to joo awl!

Neoborn

[cavefish]

I had a similar experience when I ran Havoc for 4 weeks followed immediately by Epistane for 4 weeks. Yes thats 8 weeks total straight through @ 40mg ED, yes I'm still alive and my bloodwork looked excellent following a proper post cycle therapy.

Now I felt that I had pretty good gains on both or either of them so thats not really the issue. On the Havoc I did notice I felt much more sluggish and lethargic and generally hated life moreso than when I was on the Epistane.

That's just my personal experience from using both of them and I imagine different people will have different results since theres no way to tell how you respond to a certain substance before trying it firsthand. But I will say theres only one product I'll continue using and recommending to other people.

[vcon13]

Listen to your body bro. You know your body better than anyone. You are your best test. Bodybuilding would be nowhere without science, but it would also be nowhere without experimentation and personal feedback. People have reported good results with both products.

Originally Posted by Force of Green

I don't mean to come across as biased, but I really don't think I did at all. I didn't say that one was better than the other scientifically... I said that one had completely different effects on ME than the other.
Why would I keep the rest of the Havoc Jayhawk? The next time I feel like losing my general motivation, killing my moods, and raping my energy levels, I could start popping some Havoc I guess.... sounds good to me, right?
I stated that I don't know why some continue to say it's the same. Whether it's the purity or the chemical or whatever... the two products are not the same.

This following statement is a fictional example only:

"If X sells coke that's cut with a lot of speed and baking soda and dealer Y sells 97% pure coke, are they both the same product? It can be said that they're still both the same drug, but one will give you a cleaner high without the nasty sides as dealer X...."....

Maybe the example makes sense?

I'm saying that I took the both products interchangeably. I had no expectations and did nothing different when taking them both. I am saying that they're not the same product. If they were, I would've felt no change in effects.

Go ahead and rag on me, I'll pop back on to read what yall put in a couple hours.

[vcon13]

I wish they had mods like you on BB.com.

Originally Posted by Jayhawkk

I've used both with positive results from both but your 'testing' is hardly that, that would determine whether or not the products are alike or different. I'm currently running 30mg of epistane and i'm hardly euphoric so I don't understand the positive mood comparison but as far as strength, size and lethargy, both products seem to be comparible in results of similar doses.

I look at statements like ' I threw the rest of the Havoc away' as sounding a bit biased and editorial like. There are plenty of people here that would take M1T even though it pretty much kills you on the inside and yet you're going to just toss out a product because you're sluggish? Not to mention your final statement should have "in my opinion" added to it. Your testing in no way could determine if these two compounds are different or the same.

Now i'm no fanboy nor am I saying that these two compounds couldn't be completely different but let's keep these opinions in these threads exactly what they are; just people's opinions.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by vcon13

Listen to your body bro. You know your body better than anyone. You are your best test. Bodybuilding would be nowhere without science, but it would also be nowhere without experimentation and personal feedback. BTW I love your analogy about x and y. Perfect example.

Thanks bro. I am in no way against RPN... and I have been wondering when they're going to release NOxidant again (I thought they were)... I feel that Havoc has more of a tendency to manifest unwanted sides and the effects as far as strength and size are equivalent, so why wouldn't the consumer pay the same price for the purest?

The consumer can draw his or her own conclusion or can chose to ignore my review/opinion completely. It's all good. But my experiences may be able to benefit someone that's confused about the 2.

[fitnecise]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

Thanks bro. I am in no way against RPN... and I have been wondering when they're going to release NOxidant again (I thought they were)... I feel that Havoc has more of a tendency to manifest unwanted sides and the effects as far as strength and size are equivalent, so why wouldn't the consumer pay the same price for the purest?

The consumer can draw his or her own conclusion or can chose to ignore my review/opinion completely. It's all good. But my experiences may be able to benefit someone that's confused about the 2.

Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by fitnecise

Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?

I may have mentioned that maybe one can draw his or her own conclusions from my experience, or can choose to ignore it completely. I'm not saying one will work better for the next person or the one after, but if a lot of people are having similar experiences than the only way to find out is by posting how a formula has effected one another.

Or, fitnecise... we can all shut the hell up with our experiences and that would get all of us no where, fast. I expressed my opinions with what I did and why I said what I said, etc.

As far as purity correlating with 'feeling better'... I'm going to make a statement from a logical point of view with limited knowledge on molecular science... maybe someone can chime in... But if a molecule is synthesized to mimic a vital hormone in the human body, the percentile that may be 'impure' my represent a completely different isomer and if this impurity were to be activated, the effects would express themselves. Since testosterone therapy also modifies behavioral patterns in men, this may explain the feelings of dysphoria and other unwanted emotions.

Just my guess? But like I said, take it for what it's worth.

[fitnecise]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

I may have mentioned that maybe one can draw his or her own conclusions from my experience, or can choose to ignore it completely. I'm not saying one will work better for the next person or the one after, but if a lot of people are having similar experiences than the only way to find out is by posting how a formula has effected one another.

Or, fitnecise... we can all shut the hell up with our experiences and that would get all of us no where, fast. I expressed my opinions with what I did and why I said what I said, etc.

As far as purity correlating with 'feeling better'... I'm going to make a statement from a logical point of view with limited knowledge on molecular science... maybe someone can chime in... But if a molecule is synthesized to mimic a vital hormone in the human body, the percentile that may be 'impure' my represent a completely different isomer and if this impurity were to be activated, the effects would express themselves. Since testosterone therapy also modifies behavioral patterns in men, this may explain the feelings of dysphoria and other unwanted emotions.

Just my guess? But like I said, take it for what it's worth.

I should mention I am affiliated with RPN, I forgot I am not marked on this board.

I did not mean to ridicule you for sharing, I am bitter that people assume Epistane is more pure because IBE shared a cover letter and no results. I am not here to argue but I won't stand for this accusation to continue without substantiation.

Your isomer theory is plausable but it means either product could be of less purity. It is also possible that you had hormone shifts at the points when you switched product dominance, as doses accumulated. I wish you had run them as separate cycles to compare.

[Force of Green]

Originally Posted by fitnecise

I should mention I am affiliated with RPN, I forgot I am not marked on this board.

I did not mean to ridicule you for sharing, I am bitter that people assume Epistane is more pure because IBE shared a cover letter and no results. I am not here to argue but I won't stand for this accusation to continue without substantiation.

Your isomer theory is plausable but it means either product could be of less purity. It is also possible that you had hormone shifts at the points when you switched product dominance, as doses accumulated. I wish you had run them as separate cycles to compare.

I love DCP, although I haven't taken it in a long time. You're 100% right about the whole 'either could be less pure' thing.

I have a feeling that I will not be using prohormones again... prohormones, pro-steroids... whatever we call them. Atleast not for some time.

I have run Havoc solo before and experienced slight depression, lethargy, slowed and distorted thought process, trouble waking up in the morning, and overall disgust for life.

All in all, I can't sway facts towards one product or the other. I did not run lab tests on them and I did not create them. I can only share my history, experience, and results with the utmost of honesty and unbiased hypotheses.

[LakeMountD]

Originally Posted by fitnecise

Still no proof that Havoc is not pure or that Epistane is moreso.

Who says just because something made you feel worse that it isn't as good? Why, if Epistane is more pure and should be stronger, would you feel so much better?

I left this alone but since you seem to keep bringing this up I will say plenty of results were offered. It isn't my fault you are in denial about a what a PhD in forensic toxicology stated. We even offered to pay for someone from Ergo to talk with him.

Just let it go, really who cares anymore. Both products are doing fine.

[jmh80]

Originally Posted by LakeMountD

Just let it go, really who cares anymore. Both products are doing fine.

Agreed.

[Force of Green]

Hey, I just gave my two-bits worth from my experience. I said what I said, and I respond to something that's asked.

[fitnecise]

Originally Posted by LakeMountD

I left this alone but since you seem to keep bringing this up I will say plenty of results were offered. It isn't my fault you are in denial about a what a PhD in forensic toxicology stated. We even offered to pay for someone from Ergo to talk with him.

Just let it go, really who cares anymore. Both products are doing fine.

I obviously have a response but I will take the high road and leave. bye

[fitnecise]

Originally Posted by Force of Green

Hey, I just gave my two-bits worth from my experience. I said what I said, and I respond to something that's asked.

Thanks for your feedback, it really is appreciated.