Diesel test + baby

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by blindluck View Post
    IMHO, this thread is moving off-topic. I will no longer post in response to you. If you wish to take this to PM and we can all agree to start being civil and open-minded, then I'll participate. Otherwise, I'm happy to agree to disagree.

    At this point, I'm eager to read and RESPOND to dsades retreat and anybody else's thoughts other than Trauma1 and JaredGalloway. Thanks.
    You offer civility and open-mindedness, yet just can't resist trying one last chicken**** attack? Hey, fraud, nobody retreated from anything except for you who refuses to address anything of substance brought up.

    You also brought up, I assume as an attempt to make a point, infertility. Nobody brought up anything as a treatment for infertility - which is the whole lynchpin of the discussion. OP doesn't suffer from a disease or condition, nor is anyone giving medical advice (least of which you, who has offered NO discernible advice whatsoever) for treatment of such...only suggestion based on the criteria I have already described on how to optimize chances.

    Get it yet?
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless


  2. Quote Originally Posted by blindluck View Post
    Here's an idea. Ask your sis (or any MD for that matter) to read this thread and get her opinion on your buddies recs. Ask her if any responsible practitioner would even remotely consider these recommendations.

    That's peculiar that you think you know what medical schools have good programs. I wonder if your decision making is based on NIH funding, MCAT grades, affiliation with major hospitals, match rankings or school colors.
    NVM...this doesnt matter anymore...chuck has cleared this up already...alvin go have loads of fun...
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Nobody brought up anything as a treatment for infertility - which is the whole lynchpin of the discussion.
    My only mention of infertility was in response to ALL of EVERY single study you cited. Wow, you didn't even realize that your studies are ONLY for the purpose of studying L-carnitine for TREATING men with INFERTILITY. Read the methods. You somehow made a leap of faith that since L-carnitine might have some ability to increase sperm mobility in those with infertility that it would do the same for people who were just trying to get an "edge" like alvin.

    At least now I understand our misunderstanding. You never realized that there is absolutely no correlation with those studies and alvin. If these studies treated fertile men and revealed anything about sperm motility then you might have been on to something. As it stands, you just gave treatment advice for infertile men to alvin who you have no idea about his fertility status. That's like giving blood pressure lowering meds to somebody that doesn't have high blood pressure but wants to get an "edge" in protecting his heart.

    BTW, I recant offering open-mindedness and civility to you. Disregard my earlier PM. The more you post, the more you reveal your complete lack of understanding about anything scientific. You've dug your own grave here. All I've done is to point out the hole your standing in.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by blindluck View Post
    My only mention of infertility was in response to ALL of EVERY single study you cited. Wow, you didn't even realize that your studies are ONLY for the purpose of studying L-carnitine for TREATING men with INFERTILITY. Read the methods. You somehow made a leap of faith that since L-carnitine might have some ability to increase sperm mobility in those with infertility that it would do the same for people who were just trying to get an "edge" like alvin.

    At least now I understand our misunderstanding. You never realized that there is absolutely no correlation with those studies and alvin. If these studies treated fertile men and revealed anything about sperm motility then you might have been on to something. As it stands, you just gave treatment advice for infertile men to alvin who you have no idea about his fertility status. That's like giving blood pressure lowering meds to somebody that doesn't have high blood pressure but wants to get an "edge" in protecting his heart.

    BTW, I recant offering open-mindedness and civility to you. Disregard my earlier PM. The more you post, the more you reveal your complete lack of understanding about anything scientific. You've dug your own grave here. All I've done is to point out the hole your standing in.
    I'm glad you feel better about yourself, your insecurity is pathetic.

    You are still dead wrong (yes, showing improvement by one group CAN show improvement in healthy groups - see any kind of insulin mimetic that is normally studied in diabetics and their application to NON-diabetic...this has to do with mechanism and doesn't need to be meticulously pointed in in a forum like this) and you have STILL yet to make any kind of contribution, as well as conveniently dodging many questions that have been put to you.

    You are attempting to apply certain practice which, while it keeps your butt out of court also (as demonstrated by your complete lack of anything remotely productive for the OP) limits your unconventional thinking to zero. You are a tired intellect and can only regurgitate worn paths.

    But hey, knock yourself out wit yer smug doctorin self.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  5. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    I'm glad you feel better about yourself, your insecurity is pathetic.

    You are still dead wrong (yes, showing improvement by one group CAN show improvement in healthy groups - see any kind of insulin mimetic that is normally studied in diabetics and their application to NON-diabetic...this has to do with mechanism and doesn't need to be meticulously pointed in in a forum like this) and you have STILL yet to make any kind of contribution, as well as conveniently dodging many questions that have been put to you.

    You are attempting to apply certain practice which, while it keeps your butt out of court also (as demonstrated by your complete lack of anything remotely productive for the OP) limits your unconventional thinking to zero. You are a tired intellect and can only regurgitate worn paths.

    But hey, knock yourself out wit yer smug doctorin self.
    anyways this thread doesnt matter anymore...chuck cleared everything up for alvin (concerning DTH + ALCAR + PLCAR effectiveness for sperm volume) in a previous post...
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    You are still dead wrong (yes, showing improvement by one group CAN show improvement in healthy groups - see any kind of insulin mimetic that is normally studied in diabetics and their application to NON-diabetic...this has to do with mechanism and doesn't need to be meticulously pointed in in a forum like this).
    Great, except that insulin and diabetes have absolutely nothing to do with L-carnitine and infertility. Why don't you just offer this guy some Alzheimer's treatment so that he can get a mental "edge?" Just because you guess that something can happen without knowing any mechanism doesn't mean that thing will happen. More importantly, it doesn't mean that something bad won't happen. Your science isn't scientific and your good intentions don't make up for it.
    You are attempting to apply certain practice which, while it keeps your butt out of court also (as demonstrated by your complete lack of anything remotely productive for the OP) limits your unconventional thinking to zero. You are a tired intellect and can only regurgitate worn paths.
    There are ONLY two things that have motivated me to post in this thread. I've cared that you don't give reckless advice that can hurt a third party and that you and your faithful readers can learn something about the scientific process and how to responsibly offer and receive treatment advice.
    First, get a diagnosis. Second, do a risk:benefit analysis for all treatment options. Third, decide whether to treat or not. If you can't reasonably do #1 and #2, then #3 is already decided for you. That's why I offered the best advice in the entire thread - stop supp'ing and screw. In other words, do nothing. You didn't bother to look for a diagnosis, have no clue about any risks or any benefits yet you decided to offer treatment. It shouldn't matter if I'm nice or not if calling you out on your lame advice might prevent a bad outcome for alvin and his gf. Do you know how completely friggin complicated the process is from conception, implantation, organogenesis, fetal maturation to childbirth? NO! So STFU, be grateful that you still have some credibility since most AM members still haven't read this post and stick to giving advice about getting harder boners and reducing man-tits.

    BTW, for the other genius. Valpo doesn't have a med school. Either your sister lied to you or you don't know the difference. Not knowing the difference is a pervasive theme for you two.

    As long as you don't overstep your limitations again, feel free to take potshots at me knowing that I will no longer respond. I expect nothing less. Otherwise, here endeth the lessons.

  7. It would be great to have another MD on the board to provide additional information and help. I think you made some valid points that if delivered correctly wouldn't have caused such a fuss. Please contribute to this community while being respectful even when you disagree. Keep it simple. Cheers.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Burner View Post
    It would be great to have another MD on the board to provide additional information and help. I think you made some valid points that if delivered correctly wouldn't have caused such a fuss. Please contribute to this community while being respectful even when you disagree. Keep it simple. Cheers.
    I don't doubt that my delivery needs work. It got personal after dsade started justifying his rec with junk. If the limitations of the sources aren't discussed, then it appears as if any two-bit scientific paper is factual which it clearly is not. If readers have no experience with scientific research then the message gets completely skewed, ridiculous leaps of faith are made and all while the messenger appears to be knowledgeable and gets patted on the back. Instead, dsade and others got denounced and the readers got educated... hopefully.

    Thanks for your kind invitation but I've no intention of policing or participating further on this forum. I previously watched an MD get harassed off another AM thread for posting something completely reasonable. That MD got slaughtered because he was trying to be polite and professional. At that time, I advised him via PM that it's impossible to educate the internet because people will believe what they want regardless of the facts. We all can get emotionally tied to what we think we know and it's often easier to deny the truth than accept it.

    Although, I didn't take my own advice, I sure wasn't going to make that MD's same mistake. My message got across at the sake of looking like an ass. I can live with that. Overall, this has been a tremendous time-suck and I likely won't make that same mistake again. However, I must admit that I enjoyed watching dsade bury his reputation.... maybe, I truly am an ass. Good luck to you.
    Last edited by blindluck; 10-19-2008 at 06:30 PM. Reason: clarification

  9. Quote Originally Posted by JaredGalloway View Post
    anyways this thread doesnt matter anymore...chuck cleared everything up for alvin (concerning DTH + ALCAR + PLCAR effectiveness for sperm volume) in a previous post...

    Why are you dancing? Did you get a percentage of the commission from Chuck's sale?

    Now, I'm done.

  10. This post is for benefit of those reading who are either lacking faculties sufficiently refined or easily swayed by misdirection. What you are seeing here is called a character assassination by means of insinuation - which means any logical demands of support sent to Dr. Beavis M.D. are completely ignored while strawman arguments and drive-by insinuation are employed hoping to throw off the discerning observer as to what is going on.

    So, let me do my best to summarize the SUBSTANCE of this thread to lay it all bare:

    Original Poster posts for advice to OPTIMIZE his chances of conception with his girlfriend. Important to note that he does NOT suffer from any condition limiting fertility, he is simply looking for en edge. At the same time, he wants to know that what is recommended is not risky for the future foetus.

    Recommendations were given for the employment of DTH (which, in the supplement world, comes as close to proven for enhancement of libido and semen volume/favorable semen characteristics as we can get) and A carnitine ester (be it ALCAR or PLCAR, my personal preference due to affinity for different tissues). Evidence was presented tying carnitine content in epidydimal tissues with ideal sperm condition as well as proposed mechanism of action - supplying sperm mitochidria with sufficient fuel to optimize "swimming" ability and endurance.

    In answer, Dr. Chickenlittle launches an unfounded attack claiming that the advice given was "dangerous and life-threatening"...to the foetus one can only assume, since carnitine supplementation has ZERO evidence of negative side effects. This is the crux of Doctor Suspicious Motive's apparent attack - his claim of standing up for pure science and altruistically "protecting" the OP from the unavoidable, lethal danger that will come from following the advice given.

    When asked to provide (asked SEVERAL times) one shred of evidence, Doctor Strangelove sets up several strawmen arguments and posts even more logical fallacies (notably an appeal to authority...to himself). He then proceeds to demonstrate a complete lack of familiarity with the way the supplement industry has to exist, following clues and evidence in real time, using our own bodies as test subjects. Safely hidden away in his Western Medicine/20 year developmental treatment timeframe, Doctor Lack of Intellectual Integrity spends the remainder of the thread massaging his own prostate with one hand, giving himself a self-congratulatory reacharound with the other, and even magically conjuring a THIRD hand with which to gratuitously pat himself on the back for his victory.

    Victory?

    He has YET to produce one even remotely suggestive fact that Carnitine supplementation poses even the remotest threat to the Poster, or his unconceived foetus - claimed to be his sole reason for even entering the thread.

    First - let's examine motive. Mr. Zero Posts claims to be here protecting science and the health of the OP....then where is the evidence? If there is none, it sure stands to question his TRUE motive, doesn't it? Given the anonymous nature of the internet, who IS this guy really? Why did he take it upon himself to stand by idly with ALL of the lousy PCT advice floating around and NOT SAY A WORD of assistance, but suddenly he is going to save the LIFE of the OP and his unborn progeny by preventing the man from taking >GASP< Carnitine.

    The problem, and the reason I didn't laugh this off in the first place it two-fold. First off, unscrupulous character assassination by insinuation is a shameless practice that can only be fought by forcing the attacker to name his evidence. In a world seemingly crippled in the practice of reason, this stands to damage my and my company's reputation - not by substance, but by greasy, cowardly whispers of gossip.

    Secondly, this is the perfect time to reveal these attacks for what they are - the act of a coward with an ulterior motive.

    Read the thread again carefully, dear readers, and pick out the SUBSTANCE of each post. It will be clear who has attempted to offer evidence and at least a discussion of possible modes of action, even if those steps of though involve insight beyond the original studies...and who is simply appealing to the lowest common denominator of thought - the lazy.

    Of course Doctor Mengelogic seeks to retreat from the thread, damage done...he has yet to produce one supporting fact for his original attack...and he is counting on the ADD/short attention spanned populace to shrug their shoulders and proclaimv "Yep...he sherr showed him" without even understanding what has taken place.

    I worry not as much about my reputation - my work in the industry speaks for itself - but to let such a character continue to roam without, to use its own words - calling out the BS is beyond my conscience.

    By all means, OP...."stop supplements and screw your gf...heh heh...heh heh." Golden advice from a degreed professional.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  11. Quote Originally Posted by blindluck View Post
    Why are you dancing? Did you get a percentage of the commission from Chuck's sale?

    Now, I'm done.

    No i didnt...but all ur efforts to stop Alvin from using those supplements have failed...becasue chuck cleared all this up...so u had to throw in one more ******* remark b4 u finished...good job...how about u go to the steroid/PCT forum where u actually might do some good...instead of argueing about carnitine...

  12. Quote Originally Posted by blindluck View Post
    In real science, treatment is always wrong until its proven to be right. This means that you do nothing until you can prove the treatment actually works and that it is safe. The potential benefits from treatment OUTWEIGH the potential risks from treatment. dsade, made a recommendation that has not been proven to be effecive OR safe in any meaningful way.
    This is an interesting thread. The above post comes the closest to reflecting my views on the key points here, which are safety and effectiveness.

    Effectiveness: DTH may have a positive effect on sperm, in that some studies have shown a possibility of some ingredients of DTH having a positive effect on sperm.

    Safety: No study has ever been done on the long term impact of fathers consuming DTH when fathering offspring.

    We have a possibility of effectiveness, combined with an unknown level of safety. Does this mean someone should take DTH when they intend to father children? I am forced to admit the idea makes me uncomfortable. What if the child does have some sort of health problem? It may have nothing to do with DTH, some children randomly have health problems, but will the father always be wondering if the supplement caused it? Can he live with that if it happens? The same goes for many other supplements, of course.
    Last edited by Boris; 10-20-2008 at 07:43 PM. Reason: typo

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    This is an interesting thread. The above post comes the closest to reflecting my views on the key points here, which are safety and effectiveness.

    Effectiveness: DTH may have a positive effect on sperm, in that some studies have shown a possibility of some ingredients of DTH having a positive effect on sperm.

    Safety: No study has ever been done on the long term impact of fathers consuming DTH when fathering offspring.

    We have a possibility of effectiveness, combined with an unknown level of safety. Does this mean someone should take DTH when they intend to father children? I am forced to admit the idea makes me uncomfortable. What if the child does have some sort of health problem? It may have nothing to do with DTH, some children randomly have health problems, but will the father always be wondering if the supplement caused it? Can he live with that if it happens? The same goes for many other supplements, of course.
    DTH can be ran at 4 or less tabs a day for 8 straight months with no adverse effects on hormone levels. DTH will increase semen volume, ALC will, PLCAR will, all three together will most certainly increase semen volume. I know because on DTH alone I can "donate" nice loads 3x a day when I would be at a 1x a day rotation when Im off it. My daughter is a DTH baby. I was on DTH for about 10months before she was conceived (not that it took that long, it actually took about "2 sessions"). Nothing wrong with her.

    Chuck answered most of these questions earlier...I understand ur concern though...

  14. Quote Originally Posted by JaredGalloway View Post
    Chuck answered most of these questions earlier...I understand ur concern though...
    Not really. One person taking DTH and having a healthy child isn't a large enough sample for a study.

    Something to consider - by what mechanism does ALCAR, for example, increase the swimming ability and endurance of the sperm? Does it cause the sperm to be created "better" in a way that will be passed on to the offspring? Or does it only make it "better" as long it continues to be exposed to ALCAR supplementation? I don't know which of these it is, but IF it is the latter, then that could cause an otherwise unfit sperm to be enhanced sufficiently to fertilise an egg. But if this enhancement is transient, as it is for an adult who takes the supplement, then the eventual offspring will not have this enhancement, and the natural process of selecting the fittest and strongest sperm will have been interfered with. Without the supplementation, perhaps a different sperm would have fertilised the egg, one that is better suited to a non-supplemented environment.

    I'm not suggesting there is any evidence this is how it works, merely demonstrating how there could be a mechanism by which the sort of impact that has been discussed as being positive, could in fact be harmful.

  15. I personally am not sure about the answer to some of ur questions...which is why im always on AM...and i have never read any adverse reactions concerning the supplementation of carnitine (ALCAR or PLCAR)...But until there is some evidence to show that it has the possibility of negatively impacting a fetus or sperm cells we can only give evidence of what it has done effectively over the years of research... if taken at normal dosages i think it is safe to say it is a effective alternative to more expensive and higher risk prescription medications...Just my 2 cents...We have all given our sides/opinions with some science to prove it...theres not much else we can do until someone can prove otherwise...i appreciate ur concern...while not just getting mad and using negative remarks or trying to ruin peoples rep for no apparant reason to get ur opinion across....reps for u..

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post
    Not really. One person taking DTH and having a healthy child isn't a large enough sample for a study.

    Something to consider - by what mechanism does ALCAR, for example, increase the swimming ability and endurance of the sperm? Does it cause the sperm to be created "better" in a way that will be passed on to the offspring? Or does it only make it "better" as long it continues to be exposed to ALCAR supplementation? I don't know which of these it is, but IF it is the latter, then that could cause an otherwise unfit sperm to be enhanced sufficiently to fertilise an egg. But if this enhancement is transient, as it is for an adult who takes the supplement, then the eventual offspring will not have this enhancement, and the natural process of selecting the fittest and strongest sperm will have been interfered with. Without the supplementation, perhaps a different sperm would have fertilised the egg, one that is better suited to a non-supplemented environment.

    I'm not suggesting there is any evidence this is how it works, merely demonstrating how there could be a mechanism by which the sort of impact that has been discussed as being positive, could in fact be harmful.

    Ok so thats like saying "will this multi vitamin" hinder my chances of getting my wife preg.

    Bottom line there is nothing in DTH thats not herbal and natural and there is nothing in anything in DTH that has EVER been shown to adversly affect semen. So the bigger concern should be on stuff like coffee, cigarettes, drugs, steroids, radiation, etc.,

  17. Quote Originally Posted by Boris View Post

    I'm not suggesting there is any evidence this is how it works, merely demonstrating how there could be a mechanism by which the sort of impact that has been discussed as being positive, could in fact be harmful.
    Ok, fish is high in choline which also helps produce more and stronger sperm so you saying he shouldnt eat fish also, or it could be "harmful?"

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Diesel View Post
    Bottom line there is nothing in DTH thats not herbal and natural and there is nothing in anything in DTH that has EVER been shown to adversly affect semen. So the bigger concern should be on stuff like coffee, cigarettes, drugs, steroids, radiation, etc.,
    Chuck, don't misunderstand me, I think you make great supps. You have no idea how pissed I was to see that DTH is out of stock at NP yet again just as I was about to order some. And I totally agree that stuff like steroids and cigarettes are more cause for concern.

    But I feel there is a very fine line that has been crossed in this thread. If the response to the OP had been to tell him that many people have found DTH gives an increase in libido, and allows them to ejaculate more often and with a greater volume, then that would probably be a factually accurate statement. And if he had also been told that while safety cannot be guaranteed, there is no evidence to suggest taking DTH when trying to father a child has any negative effects, then that would also probably be a factually accurate statement. However, it's a subtle distinction, I know, but to go beyond that and actively encourage someone in the OP's position to take it is what makes me a bit uncomfortable.

    Blindluck did have a point, in that when we're considering the effect on a child being brought into the world, the burden of proof should be to show that the substance in question is safe. Many people didn't believe that cigarettes were harmful for a long time, they kept demanding more and more proof. Blindluck put his points across in a confrontational way, which was bad, but some of his points did have some validity.

    Regarding your other post where you mentioned fish, if someone advocated any sort of extreme diet with an excessive amount of a particular type of food in it, I would be wary, and fish is a good example:
    http://www.protectingourhealth.org/p...curyinfish.htm

    I think I will make this my last post on the subject because I feel I've covered everything now, and don't want to upset people. I totally respect Chuck and his supplements, and there are supps from other companies that I will not name that would be WAY more cause for concern if the OP were considering taking them.
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