Diesel test + baby

alvin1

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Hi Chuck

In 2-3 month my GF and I will be trying to have a baby. I know that tribulus help with sperm mobility. Can Diesel test help more than Trib alone, and dose some of the ingredient can caus adverse effect for the upcumming baby ?

Thank's
 
TripDog

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Hi Chuck

In 2-3 month my GF and I will be trying to have a baby. I know that tribulus help with sperm mobility. Can Diesel test help more than Trib alone, and dose some of the ingredient can caus adverse effect for the upcumming baby ?

Thank's
Diesel Test Hardcore is without a doubt the most effective testosterone booster on the market period. It has the most positive feedback of very satisfied customers than anything else I can think of. The logs and the feedback speak for themselves. I say give it a try at 4 pills a day (split 2/2) and you will not be disappointed. Stacked with the new hormone optimizer Sunami will be a fury in your scrotum bro! Good luck and wish u the best man.
 

alvin1

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Diesel Test Hardcore is without a doubt the most effective testosterone booster on the market period. It has the most positive feedback of very satisfied customers than anything else I can think of. The logs and the feedback speak for themselves. I say give it a try at 4 pills a day (split 2/2) and you will not be disappointed. Stacked with the new hormone optimizer Sunami will be a fury in your scrotum bro! Good luck and wish u the best man.

Thank's for the answer!

Any word from Chuck on this subject ?
 
Chuck Diesel

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Hi Chuck

In 2-3 month my GF and I will be trying to have a baby. I know that tribulus help with sperm mobility. Can Diesel test help more than Trib alone, and dose some of the ingredient can caus adverse effect for the upcumming baby ?

Thank's
DTH will help u, trust me. No adverse like bad semen. Do u know u wrote upcumming?
 
dsade

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DTH + HIGH dose PLCAR (preferred to standard L-Carnitine) will get your boys swimming like triathletes.

1: Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Aug;14(8):704-8.Links
[Seminal plasma levocarnitine significantly correlated with semen quality]
[Article in Chinese]

Tang LF, Jiang H, Shang XJ, Zhao LM, Bai Q, Hong K, Liu DF, Liu JM, Yuan RP, Chen Q, Ma LL.

Department of Urology, The Third Hospital of Peking University, Beijing 100083, China. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the relationship of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, vitality and motility. METHODS: Enrolled in this study were 64 infertile men, who were divided according to the results of routine sperm tests into a normozoospermia (n = 12), an oligozoospermia (n = 16), an asthenozoospermia (n = 20) and an oligoasthenozoospermia group (n = 16). The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine was detected by LC-MS-MS, the concentration of seminal plasma testosterone measured by chemiluminescence immunoassay, the correlation of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, motility and vitality determined by bivariate correlation analysis with SPSS15.0, and so was the correlation between the carnitine and sperm concentration by partial correlation analysis with seminal plasma testosterone as a control variable to exclude the influence of testosterone. RESULTS: The concentrations of total seminal plasma levocarnitine, free seminal plasma levocarnitine and seminal plasma acetolevocarnitine were (91.33 +/- 40.49) mg/L, (40.89 +/- 24.13) mg/L and (50.44 +/- 21.90) mg/L; the Pearson coefficients of correlation of the levocarnitine level with sperm motility, vitality and concentration were 0.161 (P = 0.235), 0.114 (P = 0.370) and 0.637 (P < 0.001), those of free seminal carnitine with sperm motility and vitality were 0.325 (P = 0.024) and 0.316 (P = 0.029), respectively, with the oligozoospermia group excluded, and that of partial correlation between the concentrations of seminal levocarnitine and sperm was 0.641 (P < 0.001). CONCLUSION: The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine is positively correlated with sperm motility and vitality, and more significantly with sperm concentration.
 

alvin1

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DTH + HIGH dose PLCAR (preferred to standard L-Carnitine) will get your boys swimming like triathletes.

1: Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Aug;14(8):704-8.Links
[Seminal plasma levocarnitine significantly correlated with semen quality]
[Article in Chinese]

Tang LF, Jiang H, Shang XJ, Zhao LM, Bai Q, Hong K, Liu DF, Liu JM, Yuan RP, Chen Q, Ma LL.

Department of Urology, The Third Hospital of Peking University, Beijing 100083, China. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the relationship of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, vitality and motility. METHODS: Enrolled in this study were 64 infertile men, who were divided according to the results of routine sperm tests into a normozoospermia (n = 12), an oligozoospermia (n = 16), an asthenozoospermia (n = 20) and an oligoasthenozoospermia group (n = 16). The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine was detected by LC-MS-MS, the concentration of seminal plasma testosterone measured by chemiluminescence immunoassay, the correlation of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, motility and vitality determined by bivariate correlation analysis with SPSS15.0, and so was the correlation between the carnitine and sperm concentration by partial correlation analysis with seminal plasma testosterone as a control variable to exclude the influence of testosterone. RESULTS: The concentrations of total seminal plasma levocarnitine, free seminal plasma levocarnitine and seminal plasma acetolevocarnitine were (91.33 +/- 40.49) mg/L, (40.89 +/- 24.13) mg/L and (50.44 +/- 21.90) mg/L; the Pearson coefficients of correlation of the levocarnitine level with sperm motility, vitality and concentration were 0.161 (P = 0.235), 0.114 (P = 0.370) and 0.637 (P < 0.001), those of free seminal carnitine with sperm motility and vitality were 0.325 (P = 0.024) and 0.316 (P = 0.029), respectively, with the oligozoospermia group excluded, and that of partial correlation between the concentrations of seminal levocarnitine and sperm was 0.641 (P < 0.001). CONCLUSION: The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine is positively correlated with sperm motility and vitality, and more significantly with sperm concentration.

Thank you !
 
Chuck Diesel

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DTH + HIGH dose PLCAR (preferred to standard L-Carnitine) will get your boys swimming like triathletes.

1: Zhonghua Nan Ke Xue. 2008 Aug;14(8):704-8.Links
[Seminal plasma levocarnitine significantly correlated with semen quality]
[Article in Chinese]

Tang LF, Jiang H, Shang XJ, Zhao LM, Bai Q, Hong K, Liu DF, Liu JM, Yuan RP, Chen Q, Ma LL.

Department of Urology, The Third Hospital of Peking University, Beijing 100083, China. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To investigate the relationship of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, vitality and motility. METHODS: Enrolled in this study were 64 infertile men, who were divided according to the results of routine sperm tests into a normozoospermia (n = 12), an oligozoospermia (n = 16), an asthenozoospermia (n = 20) and an oligoasthenozoospermia group (n = 16). The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine was detected by LC-MS-MS, the concentration of seminal plasma testosterone measured by chemiluminescence immunoassay, the correlation of seminal plasma levocarnitine with sperm concentration, motility and vitality determined by bivariate correlation analysis with SPSS15.0, and so was the correlation between the carnitine and sperm concentration by partial correlation analysis with seminal plasma testosterone as a control variable to exclude the influence of testosterone. RESULTS: The concentrations of total seminal plasma levocarnitine, free seminal plasma levocarnitine and seminal plasma acetolevocarnitine were (91.33 +/- 40.49) mg/L, (40.89 +/- 24.13) mg/L and (50.44 +/- 21.90) mg/L; the Pearson coefficients of correlation of the levocarnitine level with sperm motility, vitality and concentration were 0.161 (P = 0.235), 0.114 (P = 0.370) and 0.637 (P < 0.001), those of free seminal carnitine with sperm motility and vitality were 0.325 (P = 0.024) and 0.316 (P = 0.029), respectively, with the oligozoospermia group excluded, and that of partial correlation between the concentrations of seminal levocarnitine and sperm was 0.641 (P < 0.001). CONCLUSION: The level of seminal plasma levocarnitine is positively correlated with sperm motility and vitality, and more significantly with sperm concentration.
yeah there is something with PLCAR and also ALCAR that increases every good aspect of semen. Like long jack does.
 
dsade

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yeah there is something with PLCAR and also ALCAR that increases every good aspect of semen. Like long jack does.
I suspect it has to do with the increased mitochondrial activity leading to more efficient prolonged "swimming" by the boys.
 
Trauma1

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I suspect it has to do with the increased mitochondrial activity leading to more efficient prolonged "swimming" by the boys.
Nothing like adding a little horsepower to improve performance. :lol:
 
testosteronet

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this is also on my mind as well...DTH+baby....
 

blindluck

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This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:
 

JaredGalloway

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This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:
:toofunny:...ur a funny guy...:afro:
 
E J

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This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.
Do you have an opinion on the effects of PLCAR, ALCAR and DTH on the fertility matter? Besides

start screwing your gf
Which I suspect he might have already considered... :lol:
 
Chuck Diesel

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This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:
wait, slow down he's asking if DTH will hinder is chance of getting his wife pregnant. You know how someone would ask you if coffee, smoking, donuts, green tea, etc., would have an effect on them getting their wife pregnant.

He's not asking what can he take to get her preg. faster.
 
crader

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Hi Chuck

In 2-3 month my GF and I will be trying to have a baby. I know that tribulus help with sperm mobility. Can Diesel test help more than Trib alone, and dose some of the ingredient can caus adverse effect for the upcumming baby ?

Thank's

I think we all need more info here. Is this your first baby? Do you have fertility issues or other issues which lead you to taking the supp for the benefits of sperm mobility?

I took your post to mean you wanted a supp to give you an advantage. But can't tell from the post why you feel you need to use anything?

And congrats on the decision to have a baby! Good luck.
 
dsade

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:wtf:
This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:

Ok, Mr. Algorithm...out of all of this rant, YOUR only half-assed useful advice is to stop all supplements and screw? Amazing...I should go to medical school. As far as you very loose insinuation that maybe somehow carnitine and/or DTH will damage future children...do you mind elucidating HOW?

The OP, I took it, is looking for anything he can take to optimize his chances for conception - addressing libido/test levels, sperm quality, semen quality/volume, and sperm motility. While I grant you that the study I posted was flawed, the conclusion is supported by many other studies. While there is no absolute tie-in yet, one of the studies I am about to post is right in line with what I suggested above - the supply of energy/fuel to sperm mitochondria in order to drive motion.

Here's a few more, when if taken as pointers towards a conclusion support exactly what I posted. What exactly IS your problem with it?

1: J Androl. 2004 Sep-Oct;25(5):761-70; discussion 771-2.Click here to read Links

Comment in:
J Androl. 2005 Sep-Oct;26(5):565-6; author reply 566-7.

Cinnoxicam and L-carnitine/acetyl-L-carnitine treatment for idiopathic and varicocele-associated oligoasthenospermia.
Cavallini G, Ferraretti AP, Gianaroli L, Biagiotti G, Vitali G.

Headquarters of Società Italiana di Studi di Medicina della Riproduzione (SISMER), Bologna, Italy. [email protected]

The objective of this study was to detect a therapy for idiopathic and varicocele-associated oligoasthenospermia (OAT). Idiopathic and varicocele OAT patients were randomized into 3 groups. Each group was composed of varying degrees of left varicoceles (graded into 5 grades with echo-color Doppler) and of idiopathic OATs. Group 1 used a placebo, group 2 used oral L-carnitine (2 g/d) + acetyl-L-carnitine (1 g/d), group 3 used L-carnitine/acetyl-L-carnitine + 1 x 30-mg cinnoxicam suppository every 4 days. Drugs were administered for 6 months. The groups were composed as follows: group 1, 71 varicoceles and 47 idiopathic OATs; group 2, 62 varicoceles and 39 idiopathic OATs; group 3, 62 varicoceles and 44 idiopathic OATs. Sperm concentration, motility, and morphology before during and after treatments were assessed. Pregnancy rates and side effects were recorded. Group 1 did not have modified sperm patterns during treatment. Group 2 had significantly increased sperm patterns at 3 and 6 months into therapy in idiopathic patients and in patients with grades I, II, and III varicocele, but not in grades IV and V. Group 3 had significantly increased sperm parameters in all patients, with the exception of grade V varicocele. Group 3 sperm patterns proved significantly higher during therapy than group 2. All sperm patterns fell to baseline after therapy suspension. Minor side effects occurred. Pregnancy rates were 1.7% (group 1), 21.8% (group 2), and 38.0% (group 3) (P <.01). L-carnitine/acetyl-L-carnitine + cinnoxicam suppositories proved a reliable treatment for low-grade varicoceles and idiopathic OATs.

: Fertil Steril. 2005 Sep;84(3):662-71.Click here to read Links
Placebo-controlled double-blind randomized trial on the use of L-carnitine, L-acetylcarnitine, or combined L-carnitine and L-acetylcarnitine in men with idiopathic asthenozoospermia.
Balercia G, Regoli F, Armeni T, Koverech A, Mantero F, Boscaro M.

Department of Internal Medicine, Polytechnic University of Marche, Ancona, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To evaluate the effectiveness of L-carnitine (LC) or L-acetyl-carnitine (LAC) or combined LC and LAC treatment in improving semen kinetic parameters and the total oxyradical scavenging capacity in semen. DESIGN: Placebo-controlled, double-blind, randomized trial. SETTING: Andrology unit, Department of Internal Medicine, Polytechnic University of Marche, Italy. PATIENT(S): Sixty infertile men, ages 20 to 40 years, with the following baseline sperm selection criteria: concentration > 20 x 10(6)/mL, sperm forward motility < 50%, and normal sperm morphology > 30%; 59 patients completed the study. INTERVENTION(S): Patients underwent a double-blind therapy of LC 3 g/d, LAC 3 g/d, a combination of LC 2 g/d and LAC 1 g/d, or placebo. The study design was 1 month of run in, 6 months of therapy or placebo, and 3 months of follow-up evaluation. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Variations in semen parameters used for patient selection, and variations in total oxyradical scavenging capacity of the seminal fluid. RESULT(S): Sperm cell motility (total and forward, including kinetic features determined by computer-assisted sperm analysis) increased in patients to whom LAC was administered both alone or in combination with LC; combined LC + LAC therapy led to a significant improvement of straight progressive velocity after 3 months. The total oxyradical scavenging capacity of the semen toward hydroxyl and peroxyl radicals also increased and was positively correlated with the improvement of kinetic features. Patients with lower baseline values of motility and total oxyradical scavenging capacity of the seminal fluid had a significantly higher probability of responding to the treatment. CONCLUSION(S): The administration of LC and LAC is effective in increasing sperm kinetic features in patients affected by idiopathic asthenozoospemia and improves the total oxyradical scavenging capacity of the seminal fluid in the same population.

1: Drugs R D. 2005;6(1):1-9.Links
Correlation between seminal carnitine and functional spermatozoal characteristics in men with semen dysfunction of various origins.
De Rosa M, Boggia B, Amalfi B, Zarrilli S, Vita A, Colao A, Lombardi G.

Department of Molecular and Clinical Endocrinology and Oncology, University of Naples Federico II, Naples, Italy. [email protected]

BACKGROUND AND OBJECTIVE: L-carnitine is an essential molecule involved in mitochondrial metabolism, controlling the transport of acetyl and acyl groups across the mitochondrial inner membrane. Carnitine and acetylated carnitine (L-acetylcarnitine) are found in high concentrations in the epididymis, where they also act as antioxidants, protecting spermatozoa against damage caused by reactive oxygen species. In this open study we investigated the correlation between seminal carnitine levels and spermatozoal function, and the effect of combined L-carnitine + L-acetylcarnitine therapy, in infertile men. PATIENTS AND METHODS: 170 infertile men were enrolled in this study. Patients were divided into those with a total sperm motility below the normal WHO range (<50% motility, group 1 [n = 102]) and those with total sperm motility within the normal range (> or =50% motility, group 2 [n = 68]). Patients in group 1 were further divided into two groups: those with primary or secondary azoospermia (1B [n = 36]), and those without (1A [n = 66]). Patients in group 1A received L-carnitine 1 g/day and L-acetylcarnitine 500 mg twice daily for 6 months. Seminal carnitine levels were measured and correlated with sperm count and motility, eosin test, hypo-osmotic swelling test, acridine orange test for sperm nuclear DNA integrity and sperm kinetics evaluated by computer-assisted sperm analysis in all patients. RESULTS: There was a significant correlation between seminal carnitine concentration and sperm concentration, total sperm count, sperm total motility, rapid forward progression, live sperm count, membrane function, nuclear DNA integrity, capacity for cervical mucus penetration, linearity of spermatic movement, and amplitude of lateral sperm head movement (all p < 0.0001) in the entire study population. In group 1A, there was a significant increase in total motility, live sperm count, membrane integrity and linearity of spermatic movement after 3 and 6 months of L-carnitine/L-acetylcarnitine treatment, and in capacity for cervical mucus penetration after 6 months of treatment, compared with baseline. CONCLUSION: Seminal carnitine concentration may be an appropriate marker of sperm and epididymal function. L-carnitine/L-acetylcarnitine treatment may be an effective therapy to improve mainly functional seminal parameters.

ONE ON MECHANISM:

1: Ann N Y Acad Sci. 2004 Nov;1033:177-88.Click here to read Links
The role of carnitine in the male reproductive system.
Ng CM, Blackman MR, Wang C, Swerdloff RS.

Department of Medicine, Harbor-UCLA Medical Center and Research and Education Institute, Torrance, CA 90509, USA.

Carnitine is highly concentrated in the epididymis and spermatozoa, where it may serve as an intramitochondrial vehicle for the acyl group, which in the form of acyl CoA acts as a substrate for the oxidation process producing energy for sperm respiration and motility. To date, studies in rodents and humans suggest that sperm count, motility, and maturation are related to epididymal free carnitine concentrations. Moreover, supplementation with carnitine improves sperm quality and/or quantity in testes of mice exposed to physical insults, such as heat and X-irradiation, and in men with idiopathic oligoasthenospermia. These benefits may be due to increased mitochondrial fatty acid oxidation resulting in improvement in motility of epididymal sperm. The antiapoptotic effect(s) of carnitine in the testes may also contribute, but this remains speculative and requires further investigation. Research to uncover the many characteristics and mechanisms of action of carnitine in somatic and germ cells may provide insights into the pathophysiology of germ cell apoptosis, the prevention of germ cell death, and possibly specific therapy of some forms of infertility. Further well-controlled, carefully designed, larger-scale studies are necessary and desirable before widespread clinical use as an infertility therapy can be contemplated.

1: Fertil Steril. 2004 Jun;81(6):1578-84.Click here to read Links

Comment in:
Fertil Steril. 2005 Jul;84(1):264-5; author reply 265-6.
Fertil Steril. 2005 Jul;84(1):266.

A placebo-controlled double-blind randomized trial of the use of combined l-carnitine and l-acetyl-carnitine treatment in men with asthenozoospermia.
Lenzi A, Sgrò P, Salacone P, Paoli D, Gilio B, Lombardo F, Santulli M, Agarwal A, Gandini L.

Department of Medical Physiopathology, University of Rome "La Sapienza", Rome, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To determine the efficacy of combined l-carnitine and l-acetyl-carnitine therapy in infertile males with oligo-astheno-teratozoospermia. DESIGN: Placebo-controlled double-blind randomized trial. SETTING: University tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): Sixty infertile patients (aged 20-40 years) with the following baseline sperm selection criteria: concentration, 10 to 40 x 10(6)/mL; forward motility, <15%; total motility, 10% to 40%; and atypical forms, <80%. Fifty-six patients completed the study. INTERVENTION(S): Patients were submitted to a combined treatment of l-carnitine (2 g/d) and l-acetyl-carnitine (1 g/d) or of placebo; the study design was 2 months' wash-out, 6 months of therapy or of placebo, and 2 months' follow-up. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Variation in the semen parameters that were used for patient selection. RESULT(S): Even though increases were seen in all sperm parameters after combined carnitine treatment, the most significant improvement in sperm motility (both forward and total) was present in patients who had lower initial absolute values of motile sperm (<4 x 10(6) forward or <5 x 10(6) total motile spermatozoa per ejaculate). CONCLUSION(S): Combined treatment with l-carnitine and l-acetyl-carnitine in a controlled study of efficacy was effective in increasing sperm motility, especially in groups with lower baseline levels.

1: J Obstet Gynaecol. 2003 Nov;23(6):653-6.Click here to read Links
Relationship between semen quality and seminal plasma total carnitine in infertile men.
Gürbüz B, Yalti S, Fiçicioğlu C, Zehir K.

Zeynep Kamil Women and Children Education and Research Hospital, Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility-IVF Department, Istanbul, Turkey. [email protected]

This study was designed to determine any correlation between infertility and semen quality with concentrations of total carnitine in human seminal plasma. Seminal plasma total carnitine concentrations were determined in 79 men. The seminal plasma of 65 infertile men and 14 men as a control group with proved fertility were investigated. The concentrations of total carnitine were reduced significantly in the infertile group compared to the control group (31.52 +/- 20.77 vs. 45.52 +/- 10.73 mg/l, P<0.05). The 65 infertile men were divided into five groups according to their sperm analysis: normospermia (n=42), oligospermia (n=23), asthenospermia (n=40), teratospermia (n=44) and oligoasthenospermia (n=10). Total seminal plasma carnitine concentration differed significantly between controls and the patient groups (P<0.05). There was a statistically significant positive correlation between seminal plasma total carnitine concentration with total sperm count and the percentage of normal forms (P<0.05 and P<0.01, respectively). Total carnitine concentration was found to be low in the asthenospermia group when compared with the group of patients, whose total motile sperm percentage was 51 (P<0.05). These findings suggest that the determination of seminal carnitine levels may be a useful test in evaluation of male infertility.



1: Fertil Steril. 2003 Feb;79(2):292-300.Click here to read Links

Comment in:
J Urol. 2003 Aug;170(2 Pt 1):677.

Use of carnitine therapy in selected cases of male factor infertility: a double-blind crossover trial.
Lenzi A, Lombardo F, Sgrò P, Salacone P, Caponecchia L, Dondero F, Gandini L.

Outpatient Department and Laboratory of Seminology and Reproductive Immunology at the Training Center in Andrology of the European Academy of Andrology, Rome, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To determine the efficacy of L-carnitine therapy in selected cases of male factor infertility. DESIGN: Placebo-controlled, double-blind, crossover trial. SETTING: University tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): One hundred infertile patients (ages 20-40 years) with the following baseline sperm selection criteria: concentration, 10-20 x 10(6)/mL; total motility, 10%-30%; forward motility, <15%; atypical forms, <70%; velocity, 10-30 micro/s; linearity, <4. Eighty-six patients completed the study. INTERVENTION(S): Patients underwent L-carnitine therapy 2 g/day or placebo; the study design was 2 months of washout, 2 months of therapy/placebo, 2 months of washout, and 2 months placebo/therapy. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Variation in sperm parameters used in the patients selection criteria, in particular, sperm motility.Excluding outliers, a statistically significant improvement in semen quality, greater than after the placebo cycle, was seen after the L-carnitine therapy for sperm concentration and total and forward sperm motility. The increase in forward sperm motility was more significant in those patients with lower initial values, i.e., <5 x 10(6) or <2 x 10(6) of forward motile sperm/ejaculate or sperm/mL. CONCLUSION(S): Based on a controlled study of efficacy, L-carnitine therapy was effective in increasing semen quality, especially in groups with lower baseline levels. However, these results need to be confirmed by larger clinical trials and in vitro studies
 
TripDog

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This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:
WOW, someone didn't get their 8 hours last night....
 

JaredGalloway

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WOW, someone didn't get their 8 hours last night....
I hope he trys to argue with u guys...itll be great to see chuck and this guy go at it...will almost remind me of chuck and supremeSE...this guys an idiot though...he makes no attempts to prove any of the above statements wrong...like i said b4...hes a funny guy...:toofunny:
 
testosteronet

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dsade, the above post you made it GREAT...I thank you for that...you betcha I am now increasing my L-Crnitine intake, what's the difference between L-Carnitine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Propionyl-L-Carnitine if anyone knows?
 
Chuck Diesel

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dsade, the above post you made it GREAT...I thank you for that...you betcha I am now increasing my L-Crnitine intake, what's the difference between L-Carnitine, Acetyl-L-Carnitine and Propionyl-L-Carnitine if anyone knows?
Big difference, L-caritine wont work nothing like the acetly version or PLCAR in reguards to increasing endurance, mental focus and sperm mobility.
 

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Hi to all

To clarify the situation, I never test to see if I have any problem in the fertility departement. I was inquirering about diesel test harcore just to give me a edge. Since i am 31 i know that my sperm count or mobility is not what it was in my 20.

Also rigth now i am using Vitrix and Niox by Nutrex nutrition, libido is up and size of the load to.

I read about tribulus and arginine that the help with sperm mobility.

I notice tha DTHC have the 2. So i ask about any side effect that can occure to the baby if I use this product.

I might as well try without nothing in the first months.....you know it was just to gave me a edge.

Thank you for all your answer and concern.

Alvin
 
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:wtf:
This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.

alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.
dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:

Great advice from the "so called" MD.
 
Trauma1

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:wtf:
This is very possibly the worst advice I've ever read on any forum and that's why I'm compelled to post. I'm no fertility expert but I am a licensed MD and there is ridiculous information being presented as fact.
alvin1, if you really think you'll be receiving effective and safe fertility tips on a body building supplement forum, then please reconsider having children. To your credit, your original post addressed concern about adverse effects to your unborn child. If you really want to have children, stop supplementing and start screwing your gf.

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general. please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about. if you're not sure about it, then don't post it especially when some poor sap's unborn child is at stake. just based on that piss-poor abstract you cited, you should not post any research-related topic until you understand the value of peer-reviewed scientific research. Seriously, did you really think you could BS your way through this?:nono:
And what's you specialty exactly, doctor?

Being and emergency room nurse for 8 years myself, i'm VERY interested to hear your answer. What knowledge base do you have regarding these supplements as well?

Better yet, are YOU 100% certain about any diagnosis you make? Isn't that why the "Differential diagnosis" is part of any given H&P/Work-up? Sounds like you're a bit of a hypocrite yourself, doc......
 

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Ok, Mr. Algorithm...out of all of this rant, YOUR only half-assed useful advice is to stop all supplements and screw? Amazing...I should go to medical school. As far as you very loose insinuation that maybe somehow carnitine and/or DTH will damage future children...do you mind elucidating HOW?

The OP, I took it, is looking for anything he can take to optimize his chances for conception - addressing libido/test levels, sperm quality, semen quality/volume, and sperm motility. While I grant you that the study I posted was flawed, the conclusion is supported by many other studies. While there is no absolute tie-in yet, one of the studies I am about to post is right in line with what I suggested above - the supply of energy/fuel to sperm mitochondria in order to drive motion.

Here's a few more, when if taken as pointers towards a conclusion support exactly what I posted. What exactly IS your problem with it?

:gotsearch:


Dsade, you use poor studies but even worse is that you make huge leaps of faith in making treatment recs about them. Your ability to read and evaluate scientific research is in doubt. Stop with studies with over-emphasized p-values, N=60 and whose outcomes reveal supposedly definitive data. Show me some thoughtful meta-analyses and systematic reviews based on peer-reviewed studies. Anybody with a minimal research background understands my request and the rudimentary requirement to evaluate research with a healthy dose of skepticism and more importantly, how to actually find the shortcomings. Why haven't you done this?

Here's a cut and paste of something vague but meaningful from your list and it's no surprise that it's the only study from the USA:

"Research to uncover the many characteristics and mechanisms of action of carnitine in somatic and germ cells may provide insights into the pathophysiology of germ cell apoptosis, the prevention of germ cell death, and possibly specific therapy of some forms of infertility. Further well-controlled, carefully designed, larger-scale studies are necessary and desirable before widespread clinical use as an infertility therapy can be contemplated."

What part of "may," "some forms" and "before [it] can be contemplated" don't you understand? You're selectively choosing tidbits of unproven research that supports an unproven hypothesis and then you make massive leaps of faith for recommending treatments. That negligence leads to malpractice lawsuits and medical licensing review in my field.

dsade (and anybody else interested), here's a tip about how to find POTENTIALLY meaningful research:
go to http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query/static/clinical.shtml and type whatever you're looking for in "systematic reviews." I used "carnitine" and "sperm." Read the two systematic review abstracts, quietly appreciate my pointer and then stop trying to make an argument:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17392136?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16792845?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Frankly, you're scientific knowledge and understanding of scientific research is nowhere near where you think you it is. Sorry, it's the painful truth but a consolation is that you and your faithful followers are now better off.

Laugh all you want about medical school, but I didn't spend 5 years getting an MS/MD and years of residency training without learning the basics about scientific review. Where'd you get your skills? Consider asking for a refund.

I've bogarted this thread enough but if you'd like, I'm eager to answer your question about potential risks of your treatment proposal...
 

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And what's you specialty exactly, doctor?

Being and emergency room nurse for 8 years myself, i'm VERY interested to hear your answer. What knowledge base do you have regarding these supplements as well?

Better yet, are YOU 100% certain about any diagnosis you make? Isn't that why the "Differential diagnosis" is part of any given H&P/Work-up? Sounds like you're a bit of a hypocrite yourself, doc......
Trauma1,

1) While there are certainly some FANTASTIC nurses out there, I rarely feel the need to clarify anything to any of them (or anybody else) when they are being accusatory. You likely know more than me about a lot of things but it's extremely doubtful that scientific research is one of them.

2) The issue here is not about supplements but about dsade making reckless treatment recommendations while appearing to be competent and knowledgeable. That is significantly worse than just revealing the facts and letting the OP decide. I probably wouldn't have posted at all if dsade had written that his knowledge on the subject is limited, research is ongoing to clarify efficacy, his treatment is unproven and that anybody who follows the rec is willfully putting their future fetus at unknown but potentially severe risk. He did the exact opposite by posting as if knowledgeable in the field, making a reckless claim and then trying to justify if with crap.

3) You're question about DDx is unclear but I'll try. I'm often not 100% sure about the actual Dx, but after risk/benefit analysis I know that any treatment for the working Dx will be chosen to minimize any risk to other DDx. The ONLY medical rec I'd make to Alvin1 is to see his PCP. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrite but keep in mind that dsade has little if any medical training, no medical license, cannot prescribe medications, lacks any understanding of the actual Dx, DDx, working Dx, treatment efficacy or side effect profile yet didn't have a problem making a treatment recommendation.

Questions? Comments? Accusations?
 

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I hope he trys to argue with u guys...itll be great to see chuck and this guy go at it...will almost remind me of chuck and supremeSE...this guys an idiot though...he makes no attempts to prove any of the above statements wrong...like i said b4...hes a funny guy...:toofunny:
You spoke too soon. It's probably useful for some to have strong opinions but to believe people without an understanding of their true knowledge vs. their claimed knowledge is not. The phrase, "Trust, but verify" might do you well.

FWIW, dsade just dug himself a deep hole. I hope he can save some face but he's trying to teach chess after only learning the rules for checkers. This is a major part of my formal training and he's made some elementary errors that a pre-med student wouldn't make.

Seriously, I wouldn't tell you how to do your job and you wouldn't pull any punches in calling me on my BS. That's exactly what's happening here. My guess is there'll be calling for reinforcements, followed by evasive tactics and then this thread will die. You'll only be left with "Trust, but verify."
 

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Great advice from the "so called" MD.
I'm happy to discuss facts, opinions or whatever. However, I don't see the point to resort to petty sarcasm and accusing me of lying. There's enough BS around here to stay on topic IMHO.
 

JaredGalloway

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You spoke too soon. It's probably useful for some to have strong opinions but to believe people without an understanding of their true knowledge vs. their claimed knowledge is not. The phrase, "Trust, but verify" might do you well.

FWIW, dsade just dug himself a deep hole. I hope he can save some face but he's trying to teach chess after only learning the rules for checkers. This is a major part of my formal training and he's made some elementary errors that a pre-med student wouldn't make.

Seriously, I wouldn't tell you how to do your job and you wouldn't pull any punches in calling me on my BS. That's exactly what's happening here. My guess is there'll be calling for reinforcements, followed by evasive tactics and then this thread will die. You'll only be left with "Trust, but verify."
dsade was never saying PLCAR and ALCAR without a doubt WILL work...he was simply giving his opinion...and ur obviously misunderstanding the OP's questions...Will PLCAR + ALCAR + DTH improve sperm count, sperm mobility, and libido...YES it will...how about u take a month run with each of the products and tell us ur feedback...u will be pleasantly surprised that we are correct...and the OP also asks will these products give ANY adverse reactions to his unborn child either now or in the future...the answer NO it WILL not...


One of the studies u posted pretty much prove our points...

Effect of L-carnitine and/or L-acetyl-carnitine in nutrition treatment for male infertility: a systematic review.Zhou X, Liu F, Zhai S.
Department of Pharmacy, Peking University Third Hospital, Beijing, China 100083.

The aim of this systematic review was to quantify the efficacy of L-carnitine (LC) and/or L-acetyl-carnitine (LAC) in nutrition treatment for male infertility according to present clinical evidence. Biomedical databases were searched to collect related clinical trials and nine relevant randomized controlled trials (RCTs) were included. The quality of the RCTs was assessed based on their performance in randomization, blinding, and allocation concealment. The meta-analysis compared LC and /or LAC therapy to placebo treatment found significant improvement in pregnancy rate (OR = 4.10, 95% CI (2.08, 8.08), p< 0.0001), total sperm motility (WMD = 7.43, 95% CI (1.72, 13.14), p = 0.04, forward sperm motility (WMD = 11.83, 95% CI (0.49, 23.16), p = 0.04) and atypical sperm cell (WMD = -5.72, 95% CI (-7.89, -3.56), p< 0.00001). However, no significant difference was found in the sperm concentration (WMD = 5.69, 95% CI (-4.47, 15.84), p = 0.27) and semen volume (WMD = 0.28, 95% CI (-0.02, 0.58), p = 0.07). In conclusion, the administration of LC and/or LAC may be effective in improving pregnancy rate and sperm kinetic features in patients affected by male infertility. However, the exact efficacy of carnitines on male infertility needs to be confirmed by further investigations.



The only thing it didnt do was increase semen volume...and remember dsade recommended DTH (for semen volume) AND ACLAR...
And ur second study was just a waste of time to read...

btw what school did u go to...
 
Trauma1

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Trauma1,

1) While there are certainly some FANTASTIC nurses out there, I rarely feel the need to clarify anything to any of them (or anybody else) when they are being accusatory. You likely know more than me about a lot of things but it's extremely doubtful that scientific research is one of them.

A: Lol! I would hope you'd clarify yourself based on some of your own BS i've read. Accusatory? Please point out exactly what i "accused" you of? Being a hypocrite? See the last paragraph for my response to that. I'll let you in on a little secrect here "doc", more times than i can count i've saved a physician's a$$ from making a major mistake in medicine over the years. Sometimes that "god-complex" clouds judgement. You're right though, there are many fantastic nurses in this world. Thank god for them....

As far as your comment about knowledge base, i've never claimed to be all knowing about everything, but i can tell you this much....... I've known quite a few doctors over the years that should have been flippin' burgers at mcdonalds instead of practicing medicine. Anyone having an M.D. or a D.O. after their name certainly doesn't discern anything about their overall knowledge base what-so-ever.


2) The issue here is not about supplements but about dsade making reckless treatment recommendations while appearing to be competent and knowledgeable. That is significantly worse than just revealing the facts and letting the OP decide. I probably wouldn't have posted at all if dsade had written that his knowledge on the subject is limited, research is ongoing to clarify efficacy, his treatment is unproven and that anybody who follows the rec is willfully putting their future fetus at unknown but potentially severe risk. He did the exact opposite by posting as if knowledgeable in the field, making a reckless claim and then trying to justify if with crap.

A: And we know you to have a competent knowledge base yourself just how exactly? Because you said so, doc? :rolleyes: :toofunny: BTW - You still have yet to answer my question as to your specialty in medicine? Or what, if any clinical involvement you have.

You've already disclosed that Ob/Gyn and Fertility isn't your area of specialty, yet you're saying what is recommended will hurt an unborn baby? How can you state that yourself? Is this what you'd tell a patient that came to you with these type of questions? Would you tell them to just "Go screw your girlfriend/boyfriend" as medical advice? I don't think so. I'm CERTAIN you'd be referring them to the correct resource/treating specialty (I.E. Ob/Gyn or Fertility) to make that call.

I can understand what you're trying to say in the big picture, but you're clearly stepping all over yourself after making statments like above.

The issue here very much involves supplements as well, take your ignorant blinders off.....


3) You're question about DDx is unclear but I'll try. I'm often not 100% sure about the actual Dx, but after risk/benefit analysis I know that any treatment for the working Dx will be chosen to minimize any risk to other DDx. The ONLY medical rec I'd make to Alvin1 is to see his PCP. I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrite but keep in mind that dsade has little if any medical training, no medical license, cannot prescribe medications, lacks any understanding of the actual Dx, DDx, working Dx, treatment efficacy or side effect profile yet didn't have a problem making a treatment recommendation.

A: My question/statement about Differential Diagnosis is/was very clear. Nothing in medicine is 100%, this includes any given diagnosis that is made. If any given diagnosis was 100% certain, there wouldn't be a need for the differential diagnosis, or ruling them out. End of story.

BTW - When you're posting DDx or Dx, anyone outside medicine doesn't know what you're talking about. I try to limit the medical vernacular to keep the general reader involved. I suggest you do the same.

As far as being a hypocrite goes, it's just like was already stated......

dsade, for you to use that POS abstract as evidence to use DTHC and PLAC to increase male fertility reveals your ignorance on this subject and scientific research in general.
please do naive people a favor and limit your posting to what you are 100% certain about.​
My statement in response to that. - "Are you 100% certain on any diagnosis that you make?" Given i already know the answer is no, this supports my "accusation" (if that's what you want to call it.) You can't be 100% on a diagnosis that is made, yet you're quick to point out someone shouldn't post unless they're 100% certain about something? A diagnosis (that is NOT 100% accurate, or can be absolutely proven) is/are given in medicine EVERY SINGLE DAY!

Come off the soap box, doc.....



Questions? Comments? Accusations?
See above.

I sincerely hope this convo can get back to being helpful instead of inflammatory.

Have a nice day. :)
 
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Trauma1

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You spoke too soon. It's probably useful for some to have strong opinions but to believe people without an understanding of their true knowledge vs. their claimed knowledge is not. The phrase, "Trust, but verify" might do you well.

FWIW, dsade just dug himself a deep hole. I hope he can save some face but he's trying to teach chess after only learning the rules for checkers. This is a major part of my formal training and he's made some elementary errors that a pre-med student wouldn't make.

Seriously, I wouldn't tell you how to do your job and you wouldn't pull any punches in calling me on my BS. That's exactly what's happening here. My guess is there'll be calling for reinforcements, followed by evasive tactics and then this thread will die. You'll only be left with "Trust, but verify."
Dear god, i seriously hope you're kidding here? :blink: Patronize people much doc, or does that just go along with the title for many? :rolleyes:
 
dsade

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I can count the number of MDs on one hand that do not come across as ridiculous when trying to even understand supplementation (Dinoii and Uhockey from DS being them).

There were 2 points/question brought up, Mr. MD.

One - what can be done to optimize chances of conception. Recommendations were given, and not without evidence. Solid, clinical evidence with 99% support? No, you get words like "may" because the true incentive for running mass studies - namely Big Pharm - is not there for non-patentable compounds. What we are forced to do is draw support from what studies we can find, examine mechanism, and likely induce likelihoods. What we also do is focus on any negative effects that come up (or that we can foresee) then give out that information, as we are all using out own bodies as experimental centers.

The other concern brought up, about which you are behaving like a drama queen, is potential side effects ON the foetus. You have failed to articulate ONE side effect, all the while flailing verbally around as if we are advocating Thalidomide.

Your advice has been nil, sir. Your concerns, unfounded (or at least unarticulated). Your attitude and self-righteousness has pretty much guaranteed that you will be ignored (one can hope you treat your "patients" with a more pleasing bedside manner) and attacked.

It is understood that this board is academic, and that we are talking SUPPLEMENTS. Based on research COMBINED with years of monitoring subjective feedback, COMBINED with years of (semi-scientific) objective feedback, and COMBINED with our own subjective experiences with certain compounds/combinations, we reach intermediary conclusions that we share.

Using these parameters and the LACK of demonstrable risk to developing foetus (note that nobody recommended that the mother begin taking these supplements, and continue doing so to term), we gave reasonable recommendations - as opposed to your valuable gems.

So - you have failed to offer anything remotely positive by way of something that will INCREASE his chances of conception, other than "return to some ideal state of nature (unknown in modern society anymore") and screw? Brilliant, my friend. You have implied that our recommendations place the foetus in Jeopardy. When placed with the burden of proof you have done nothing but REPEAT your warning, this time with your panties completely bunched tight, yet with zero support.
 

JaredGalloway

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What i REALLY dont understand is why he has not posted ANYTHING to prove any of the your recommendations wrong...He just blatently attacks and accuses without science backing him up...
 
Trauma1

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What i REALLY dont understand is why he has not posted ANYTHING to prove any of the your recommendations wrong...He just blatently attacks and accuses without science backing him up...
Exactly, but apparently we're accusing him of things?......lol! :rolleyes:

It's more like reality to me.

Pot meet kettle. :lol:
 

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dsade was never saying PLCAR and ALCAR without a doubt WILL work...he was simply giving his opinion...and ur obviously misunderstanding the OP's questions...Will PLCAR + ALCAR + DTH improve sperm count, sperm mobility, and libido...YES it will...how about u take a month run with each of the products and tell us ur feedback...u will be pleasantly surprised that we are correct...and the OP also asks will these products give ANY adverse reactions to his unborn child either now or in the future...the answer NO it WILL not...


One of the studies u posted pretty much prove our points...

Effect of L-carnitine and/or L-acetyl-carnitine in nutrition treatment for male infertility: a systematic review.Zhou X, Liu F, Zhai S.
Department of Pharmacy, Peking University Third Hospital, Beijing, China 100083.

The aim of this systematic review was to quantify the efficacy of L-carnitine (LC) and/or L-acetyl-carnitine (LAC) in nutrition treatment for male infertility according to present clinical evidence. Biomedical databases were searched to collect related clinical trials and nine relevant randomized controlled trials (RCTs) were included. The quality of the RCTs was assessed based on their performance in randomization, blinding, and allocation concealment. The meta-analysis compared LC and /or LAC therapy to placebo treatment found significant improvement in pregnancy rate (OR = 4.10, 95% CI (2.08, 8.08), p< 0.0001), total sperm motility (WMD = 7.43, 95% CI (1.72, 13.14), p = 0.04, forward sperm motility (WMD = 11.83, 95% CI (0.49, 23.16), p = 0.04) and atypical sperm cell (WMD = -5.72, 95% CI (-7.89, -3.56), p< 0.00001). However, no significant difference was found in the sperm concentration (WMD = 5.69, 95% CI (-4.47, 15.84), p = 0.27) and semen volume (WMD = 0.28, 95% CI (-0.02, 0.58), p = 0.07). In conclusion, the administration of LC and/or LAC may be effective in improving pregnancy rate and sperm kinetic features in patients affected by male infertility. However, the exact efficacy of carnitines on male infertility needs to be confirmed by further investigations.

The only thing it didnt do was increase semen volume...and remember dsade recommended DTH (for semen volume) AND ACLAR...
And ur second study was just a waste of time to read...

btw what school did u go to...
Nothing that you just said makes a meaningful argument when it comes to treatment recommendations. You made the same mistake as dsade, which is to use an abstract that does not have a definitive conclusion to support a treatment rec. So, what exact dosage would you recommend? over what time frame? What exactly would you be treating? What are potential side effects? You're dsade's reinforcement trying to evade and misdirect. I don't know what else to say to you at this point so I'll stop trying.
 

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Dear god, i seriously hope you're kidding here? :blink: Patronize people much doc, or does that just go along with the title for many? :rolleyes:
How do you know if that's patronizing? Do you know any med students that have made that mistake? If a med student made that mistake, it would happen only once. besides, dsade was courageous enough to poke fun at medical school so he might actually benefit from being humbled.
 
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How do you know if that's patronizing? Do you know any med students that have made that mistake? If a med student made that mistake, it would happen only once. besides, dsade was courageous enough to poke fun at medical school so he might actually benefit from being humbled.
Given it's tough to discern at times through an online setting, however it seems blatantly implied to me.

Seriously now, i hope you're kidding about the med student comment? They, like residents are puppies......constantly pissing where they shouldn't be making mistakes. Everyone has to start somewhere since it's a learning/retention/application process (and i'm not directing this only at med students/resident, but any profession that it applies), including young nurses, but making a statement like that is nothing short of completely and utterly ridiculous.

Read his comments again, he is most certainly not imo poking fun at medical school. I think it's more indirectly referring to you and your statements.
 
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JaredGalloway

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Nothing that you just said makes a meaningful argument when it comes to treatment recommendations. You made the same mistake as dsade, which is to use an abstract that does not have a definitive conclusion to support a treatment rec. So, what exact dosage would you recommend? over what time frame? What exactly would you be treating? What are potential side effects? You're dsade's reinforcement trying to evade and misdirect. I don't know what else to say to you at this point so I'll stop trying.
Your obviously not reading my previous post correctly so here it is again
dsade was never saying PLCAR and ALCAR without a doubt WILL work...he was simply giving his opinion...and ur obviously misunderstanding the OP's questions...Will PLCAR + ALCAR + DTH improve sperm count, sperm mobility, and libido...YES it will...how about u take a month run with each of the products and tell us ur feedback...u will be pleasantly surprised that we are correct...and the OP also asks will these products give ANY adverse reactions to his unborn child either now or in the future...the answer NO it WILL not...

omg...i posted YOUR study...u were trying to prove US wrong with a study that proves us right...omg...i didnt use just any abstract i used YOURS...This is NOT TREATMENT for an infertile man...it is a recommendation to improve his sperm motility, and sperm volume...without ANY adverse reactions to the future baby...we have already proved this now its ur turn to prove us wrong...thats how a debate goes...we have already posted the recommended dosage, but the time frame we have not...so here it goes DTH can be run for 8 weeks or longer until a loss in libido occurs...chuck can have more insight on this...we are not TREATING we are helping his sperm motility and sperm volume...use the search function and ull find the potential side effects for DTH....theres only a few maybe even none when dosed as recommended...how am i evading and misdirecting...exactly stop trying... cause ur doing a piss poor job at proving ur statements...

u still havent answered what school u went too...or where u got ur md...
 
SilentBob187

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Nothing that you just said makes a meaningful argument when it comes to treatment recommendations. You made the same mistake as dsade, which is to use an abstract that does not have a definitive conclusion to support a treatment rec. So, what exact dosage would you recommend? over what time frame? What exactly would you be treating? What are potential side effects? You're dsade's reinforcement trying to evade and misdirect. I don't know what else to say to you at this point so I'll stop trying.
I appreciate your commitment to your profession but you have to realize that this is a website geared more toward supplements than prescription meds.

No where has ANYONE said that anything they say constitues medical advice, this includes your stop supplementing and start screwing your gf 'suggestion.' They are simply stating that there is a chance that supplements such as PLCAR may help with OP and his wife having a baby. They are even providing several studies that show what could be potential benefits of carnitine. And there's a funny thing behind the word may, it can also be followed by not. That's the way the cookie crumbles. In this world, even more so than in medicine, nothing is 100%

And then there's the issue of the well-being of the child. If carnitine has a potential impact on newborns then are you going to advise mommies and daddies to not eat any protein while trying to conceive?

Do I have a background in anything? No. Do I believe that there is evidence of the benefits of supplementation that isn't proven in a peer-reviewed studies? Yes.

If you get worked over a thread like this one then I'd be interested in your reaction to some of the other sections on this board, Steroid, PCT, and Male-anti aging to be specific.

To the OP, good luck bro. Keep us posted.

To blindluck, take some valerian and GABA and relax. If you believe in that stuff.
 
Trauma1

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I've added/edited to my most recent post above since i had more time to reply.

Nicely articulated post as well bob. ;)
 

blindluck

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No, you get words like "may" because the true incentive for running mass studies - namely Big Pharm - is not there for non-patentable compounds.
I agree to a certain extent.
What we are forced to do is draw support from what studies we can find, examine mechanism, and likely induce likelihoods.
Why are you "forced to do" anything? Don't confuse that with choosing to do something. You're choosing to draw support from lousy studies, examine mechanism, guess that treatment might be helpful and hope it won't be hurtful without really knowing any details of the study, much less details of the treatment.
What we also do is focus on any negative effects that come up (or that we can foresee) then give out that information, as we are all using out own bodies as experimental centers.
I don't think you've focused on any negative effects in this case. There have been no negative effects because this hasn't been studied thoroughly. You didn't give out information but a treatment based on your idea of information. You later tried to justify your treatment rec with some poor studies. Why use your body as an experimental center when there's already safe treatment out there? More importantly, why recommend any treatment at all if there is no identifiable problem?
The other concern brought up, about which you are behaving like a drama queen, is potential side effects ON the foetus. You have failed to articulate ONE side effect, all the while flailing verbally around as if we are advocating Thalidomide.
Does anybody know how increased doses of L-carnitine affects sperm motility in those with normal levels in their seminiferous tubules? Does anybody know if other factors of fertility are negatively effected by L-carnitine? Does anybody know if L-carnitine is cytotoxic at above normal levels like those possibly found in Alvin1? If so, what is the dosage range and serum level of toxicity? Will any potential toxicity or any increased motility of otherwise non-viable spermatozoa affect the viability of the fetus or fertility at all? Does anybody know alvin1's problem besides naivete? Does he even have a medical problem? Does anybody know what the effect of your recommendation of "DTH + HIGH dose PLCAR (preferred to standard L-Carnitine)?" Does anybody even have the slightest idea about the mechanism of interaction between sperm and L-carnitine? The answer of all of these questions is "No," yet these are extremely basic questions before any responsible practitioner would make treatment recs. It took me like 30 seconds to brainstorm that. Why didn't you think of that before making a leap of faith? We're not talking about alvin1 entering his swimmer's in a timed event for the sperm-olympics. This is his child. I don't feel like a drama queen for trying to protect him.
Your advice has been nil, sir. Your concerns, unfounded (or at least unarticulated). Your attitude and self-righteousness has pretty much guaranteed that you will be ignored (one can hope you treat your "patients" with a more pleasing bedside manner) and attacked.
My attitude can use adjustment and I've actually tried to minimize my chest-thumping so maybe I failed. My recommendation for alvin was to do nothing because a basic tenet of providing treatment is to "Do No Harm." He doesn't know if he has a problem. It's not even indicated to get a semen analysis and you're jumping into treatment recs. DON"T GUESS when you don't know the risks. If there's no valid research or FDA approval to support L-carnitine, then don't use it. Period.
It is understood that this board is academic, and that we are talking SUPPLEMENTS. Based on research COMBINED with years of monitoring subjective feedback, COMBINED with years of (semi-scientific) objective feedback, and COMBINED with our own subjective experiences with certain compounds/combinations, we reach intermediary conclusions that we share.
This board is not academic but anecdotal. Still, I actually like this board but it's because I can easily sift through the BS. I could raise the BS flag every day here but I don't care if some guy makes some wild claim and readers end up with poor gains or get puffy nipples and gassy diarrhea. I do care that you answered a question as if you're an authority but actually have no idea about how to SAFELY treat infertility, if he even has it. If that's being a drama queen, so be it.
Using these parameters and the LACK of demonstrable risk to developing foetus (note that nobody recommended that the mother begin taking these supplements, and continue doing so to term), we gave reasonable recommendations - as opposed to your valuable gems.
What's your definition of LACK of demonstrable risk? What is any risk? If the risk is unknown, then there can't be a risk:benefit analysis. If you don't understand the point so far, then this will be a circular argument.
So - you have failed to offer anything remotely positive by way of something that will INCREASE his chances of conception, other than "return to some ideal state of nature (unknown in modern society anymore") and screw? Brilliant, my friend.
I'm not trying to offer anything remotely positive. I'm trying to challenge anything remotely NEGATIVE. Does he even need to increase his chances of conception? How does he know without screwing his GF that he can't already flood her egg in a bath of viable sperm? There is zero indication for treatment.
You have implied that our recommendations place the foetus in Jeopardy. When placed with the burden of proof you have done nothing but REPEAT your warning, this time with your panties completely bunched tight, yet with zero support.
OMFG. You think the burden of proof lies with me? The burden of proof lies with YOU for giving treatment advice. You just used my main point of the entire argument and tried to turn it around on me.:blink:..... :toofunny:
Thankfully, alvin showed some common sense by deciding not to listen to you.
 

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What i REALLY dont understand is why he has not posted ANYTHING to prove any of the your recommendations wrong...He just blatently attacks and accuses without science backing him up...
Jared, thanks for bringing up this extremely pertinent point. In real science, treatment is always wrong until its proven to be right. This means that you do nothing until you can prove the treatment actually works and that it is safe. The potential benefits from treatment OUTWEIGH the potential risks from treatment. dsade, made a recommendation that has not been proven to be effecive OR safe in any meaningful way. That concept is lost on many of you.
 

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Given it's tough to discern at times through an online setting, however it seems blatantly implied to me.

Seriously now, i hope you're kidding about the med student comment? They, like residents are puppies......constantly pissing where they shouldn't be making mistakes. Everyone has to start somewhere since it's a learning/retention/application process (and i'm not directing this only at med students/resident, but any profession that it applies), including young nurses, but making a statement like that is nothing short of completely and utterly ridiculous.


Read his comments again, he is most certainly not imo poking fun at medical school. I think it's more indirectly referring to you and your statements.
Maybe so, but it was unclear.
 

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Jared, thanks for bringing up this extremely pertinent point. In real science, treatment is always wrong until its proven to be right. This means that you do nothing until you can prove the treatment actually works and that it is safe. The potential benefits from treatment OUTWEIGH the potential risks from treatment. dsade, made a recommendation that has not been proven to be effecive OR safe in any meaningful way. That concept is lost on many of you.

WE HAVE ALL PROVEN OUR RECOMMENDATIONS...becasue for one we have ALL used both of the mentioned products and they help significantly in semen volume, sperm motility...and again Alvin NEVER said he was infertile he just wanted some advice to get a bigger, firmer erection and a bigger load (which will get his girlfriend pregnant)...simple as that...THIS IS NOT A TREATMENT...and NO ONE has said it is...and plus u still havent stated where u went to school or got ur md...u are the only person on here that has to prove that they have anything helpful to say...cause if u dont then NO ONE will listen to ur BS...if we are giving bad advice then prove our advice wrong...that is YOUR JOB...

"dsade, made a recommendation that has not been proven to be effecive OR safe in any meaningful way."

Look up each individial ingredient found in DTH and tell me how and why it will not work...then read ALL the realworld feedback and u will have ur answer... through what physiological mechanisms will any of these products negatively effect an unborn fetus...
 

blindluck

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I appreciate your commitment to your profession but you have to realize that this is a website geared more toward supplements than prescription meds.

No where has ANYONE said that anything they say constitues medical advice, this includes your stop supplementing and start screwing your gf 'suggestion.' They are simply stating that there is a chance that supplements such as PLCAR may help with OP and his wife having a baby. They are even providing several studies that show what could be potential benefits of carnitine. And there's a funny thing behind the word may, it can also be followed by not. That's the way the cookie crumbles. In this world, even more so than in medicine, nothing is 100%.
I hear you. To summarize, my point is that when considering any unproven treatment for increasing the probability of conception, one must consider the risks.
And then there's the issue of the well-being of the child. If carnitine has a potential impact on newborns then are you going to advise mommies and daddies to not eat any protein while trying to conceive?
I agree but what about taking DTHC with high dose carnitine in somebody that may not have any problem to begin with. Is more of a good thing better? When does more of a good thing start to become too much of a good thing and start causing problems? Will it actually decrease the chances of conception at some point? If so, what exactly is that point? The answers are, "nobody knows"
Do I have a background in anything? No. Do I believe that there is evidence of the benefits of supplementation that isn't proven in a peer-reviewed studies? Yes.
I completely agree but at what point should somebody start thinking about seeing their licensed doctor. I personally draw a line at fertility testing.
If you get worked over a thread like this one then I'd be interested in your reaction to some of the other sections on this board, Steroid, PCT, and Male-anti aging to be specific.
At this time, I'm not interested in revealing my supp history but it might surprise you. If HGH, anabolics or whatever ends up being a wonder-drug for you, then I think that's great. If there's a bad outcome, then I'd feel bad for you. But if your wife had a miscarriage due to some crappy recommendation on this board, then I'd be F'ing pissed.
To the OP, good luck bro. Keep us posted.

To blindluck, take some valerian and GABA and relax. If you believe in that stuff.
Personally, if I was getting worked up, I'd consider a low-dose benzodiazepine.
 

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WE HAVE ALL PROVEN OUR RECOMMENDATIONS...becasue for one we have ALL used both of the mentioned products and they help significantly in semen volume, sperm motility
How did you actually measure your sperm motility?

...and again Alvin NEVER said he was infertile he just wanted some advice to get a bigger, firmer erection and a bigger load (which will get his girlfriend pregnant)...simple as that...THIS IS NOT A TREATMENT...and NO ONE has said it is...and plus u still havent stated where u went to school or got ur md...u are the only person on here that has to prove that they have anything helpful to say...cause if u dont then NO ONE will listen to ur BS...if we are giving bad advice then prove our advice wrong...that is YOUR JOB...
You've proven only how little you know. What do you know about MY JOB?
When "dsade, made a recommendation that has not been proven to be effecive OR safe in any meaningful way."

Look up each individial ingredient found in DTH and tell me how and why it will not work...then read ALL the realworld feedback and u will have ur answer... through what physiological mechanisms will any of these products negatively effect an unborn fetus...
Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy your temporary high.
 

JaredGalloway

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Ignorance is bliss. Enjoy your temporary high.
so agian what school did u go to for ur md...waiting...still waiting...and btw are u from the states...or even speak english cause it seems like ur not reading peoples posts accurately...

obviously u arent reading my posts properly...

"and again Alvin NEVER said he was infertile he just wanted some advice to get a bigger, firmer erection and a bigger load (which will get his girlfriend pregnant)...simple as that...THIS IS NOT A TREATMENT...and NO ONE has said it is"

btw what is your point to even start posting...u said dsade's and trips advice is bad....then give some good advice besides screw ur gf...come on doc dont u have something else up ur sleave....please enlighten us...if u have any good advice that has to do with the OP's questions then share...answer his questions already and stop argueing...
theres no point to even argue u havent given any advice...which is what AM is for...
 

blindluck

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Your obviously not reading my previous post correctly so here it is again
dsade was never saying PLCAR and ALCAR without a doubt WILL work...he was simply giving his opinion...and ur obviously misunderstanding the OP's questions...Will PLCAR + ALCAR + DTH improve sperm count, sperm mobility, and libido...YES it will...how about u take a month run with each of the products and tell us ur feedback...u will be pleasantly surprised that we are correct...and the OP also asks will these products give ANY adverse reactions to his unborn child either now or in the future...the answer NO it WILL not...

omg...i posted YOUR study...u were trying to prove US wrong with a study that proves us right.
If you think the study I posted proves you right, then you don't know how to read scientific jargon and are completely clueless to the point of this entire argument.
..omg...i didnt use just any abstract i used YOURS...This is NOT TREATMENT for an infertile man...it is a recommendation to improve his sperm motility, and sperm volume...without ANY adverse reactions to the future baby...we have already proved this now its ur turn to prove us wrong...thats how a debate goes...we have already posted the recommended dosage, but the time frame we have not...so here it goes DTH can be run for 8 weeks or longer until a loss in libido occurs...chuck can have more insight on this...we are not TREATING we are helping his sperm motility and sperm volume...use the search function and ull find the potential side effects for DTH....theres only a few maybe even none when dosed as recommended...how am i evading and misdirecting...exactly stop trying... cause ur doing a piss poor job at proving ur statements...

u still havent answered what school u went too...or where u got ur md...
My specialty is not supplementology from the University of AnabolicMinds. I feel that your question is being asked to further your evasive tactics to misdirect and divert attention from the point of this topic. If you can clearly articulate why you'd like to know, I'll reconsider. How's that?
 

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