Lean mass cylce w/ generic labz

[Bildo_21]

Starting June 1st I am going to run a lean mass cycle, and was looking for some advise about the cylce. I am currently 5'8" 175lbs. ~ 8% BF. I want to get to about 185lbs. with minimal fat gains. Its planned to run like this:
Week 1: 2 TRN & 2 Pher-X
Week 2: 2 TRN & 2 Pher-X
Week 3: 3 TRN, 3 Pher-X, & 2 Zol
Week 4: 3 TRN, 3 Pher-X, & 2 Zol
Week 5: 3 TRN, 3 Pher-X, & 3 Zol
Week 6: 3 Zol
Week 7: 3 Zol, 4 PCT
Week 8: 4 PCT+ NOW Testo-Jack
Week 9: 3 PCT+ NOW Testo-Jack
Week 10: 2 PCT+ NOW Testo-Jack
Week 11: 1 PCT
-Creatine+Glutamine 20 Grams a day & 1 pill of 6-OXO before bed
My diet will be about 300 grams protein,150-190 grams carbs, and 30-60 grams fat. If anyone has any suggestions about my diet and/or my cycle its would be greatly appreciated.

 

[smokey the bear]

I don't think it is very wise to dose that high on the pher-x and TRN simultaneously. i would consider lowering both the phera and TRN doses and run them all the way to week 6 with the zol beginning at week 2.

when you refer to pct I'm assuming your talking about the anabolic xtreme product(formerly ultra hott or hotter, by alri). the dosage schedule you have laid out looks good, but this is a pretty heavy duty stack here and i would have to strongly suggest some clomid and nolva for pct.

when you say your gonna take 1 6oxo before bed each night I'm assuming that is on cycle. if so, that is a good way to keep bloat down...but if your talking about using it for pct, forget about it, the pct products i mentioned should be fine.

definitely run some liver protection while on and during pct of this cycle.

creatine is fine on cycle but is more important post cycle.

one more thing, a little more fat in the diet is a good idea.

...also, this is a pretty heavy stack here, what is your experience with prohormone or other aas type products, and have you ever used any of the products included in your planned stack?????

 

[Bildo_21]

Last fall I did a M1-P/Masterdrol cycle for 5 weeks, I gained 18lbs. from it and 12lbs. of that was lean mass. I did 2 of each for the 1st week and then bumped it up to 3 a day for the next 3. . I followed that up with formadrol extreme,tribulus, and ZMA. I haven't used any of these products and i thought that the Pher-X might have been a bit high cause it is the same compund as masterdrol but more potent @ 15mg. Yes the 6-OXO was just during the cycle, and yes i do have liver & prostate support for both during and post.

 

[ripped218]

Last fall I did a M1-P/Masterdrol cycle for 5 weeks, I gained 18lbs. from it and 12lbs. of that was lean mass. I did 2 of each for the 1st week and then bumped it up to 3 a day for the next 3. . I followed that up with formadrol extreme,tribulus, and ZMA. I haven't used any of these products and i thought that the Pher-X might have been a bit high cause it is the same compund as masterdrol but more potent @ 15mg. Yes the 6-OXO was just during the cycle, and yes i do have liver & prostate support for both during and post.

Pher-X is a PP/ERGO clone not like masterdol,I think masterdol is a SD clone.

 

[smokey the bear]

Pher-X is a PP/ERGO clone not like masterdol,I think masterdol is a SD clone.

yes masterdrol is a superdrol clone. i am sticking with my prior recommendations, and i would think about maybe using more than two pills of 6oxo during the cycle. pheramax will bloat you up more than the masterdrol did, and the AI should help with that.. you may want to try and use the phera or any of the gl products by themselves to asses their effects on you personaly...these are pretty powerful hormones your dealing with(trn, phera).

 

[ripped218]

From my experience ATD works better for bloat than 6-oxo.And i agree with Smokey you should have Nolva on hand during the cycle.

 

[Bildo_21]

Alright so i should go with 2 a day for 6 weeks of the TRN/Pher-X, 2 weeks in run Zol @ 2 a day for 6 weeks. Run 6-OXO @ 2 a night? Yea and as far as the diet goes with the fat, my body doest respond very well to diets higher than 50-60 grams of fat, no matter if im all out bulking or cutting on 0 carbs. Thanks for the advise guys

 

[smokey the bear]

ripped is right about the 6oxo vs atd. mg per mg, atd is a much stronger ai. but if you already have the 6oxo just run it at 2 or so nightly and you should be fine. as far as the fats go, i would just make sure that you primarily consume them with your stack in order to aid in absorption..

 

[Bildo_21]

i plan on takeing the 1st dose in the mourning with breakfast wich is about 12 grams of fat mostly from egg yolks, and the 2nd dose with about 4-5 grams of flax and CLA.

 

[Bildo_21]

i plan on takeing the 1st dose in the mourning with breakfast wich is about 12 grams of fat mostly from egg yolks, and the 2nd dose with my 10oz. steak & rice meal, i will also be takeing about 3 grams of flax at this meal iwth 1 grams CLA.

 

[Bildo_21]

Alright smoky i think i got the new cycle down so let me hear it
week 1-2: 2 TRN, 2 Pher-X + 6-oxo before bed
week 3-4: 2 TRN, 2 Pher-X +2 Zol &6-oxo before bed
week 5-6: 2 TRN, 2 Pher-X 2 Zol 6-oxo before bed
week 7-8: 2 Zol +6-oxo before bed
week 9-12: Same PCT

* The whole diet siuation was perfected 2day c/p/f = 175/300/60 & on leg day 300/225/60

 

[grexx]

Looks good, but cut the phera-x at week 4....

 

[smokey the bear]

grex is right, running a methyl for six weeks will trash your organs pretty bad. as far as weeks 7-8 i would up the dose of zol since your running it solo, probably 3-4 per day. Grexx do you think it would be ok to up the dose of phera to three per day for four weeks along with the mentioned dosing on the trn and zol??

 

[ripped218]

grex is right, running a methyl for six weeks will trash your organs pretty bad. as far as weeks 7-8 i would up the dose of zol since your running it solo, probably 3-4 per day. Grexx do you think it would be ok to up the dose of phera to three per day for four weeks along with the mentioned dosing on the trn and zol??

Alot of bros say they have experienced BP issues when upping the Phera to 3 a day ,especially when running others with it.

 

[smokey the bear]

bp is only one of my concerns, celery seed and hawthorn can work wonders, and if your taking an ai to inhibit excess estrogen, it should reduce bloat therefore the volume of water in the body should be normalized and the bp issues wont be as pronounced. my primary concern is the stress on the liver since you would be running a methyl@45mg for four weeks, stacked along with some other pretty potent chems in the mix for a long term duration of eight weeks straight...sounds like it would be pushin it, but it may work, grexx any thoughts

 

[Bildo_21]

thanks for all the help guys.....I am planing on starting the cycle May 8th so i'll take all the advise i can get until then to change the doses, dose times, duration time to run products so aslong as we come to a set cycle by May 6th im cool with everything, thanks again.....And o yea, could u guys take a look at my lean bulking diet in the bulking forum and give me some thoughts on that?

 

[Bildo_21]

alright guys 2maro is the big day. So this is the final cycle.......
Week 1-2: 2 TRN & 2Pher-X; 6-OXO @ night
week 3-4: 2 TRN, 2Pher-X, 2 Zol; 6-OXO @ night
week 5-6: 2 TRN & 2 Zol; 6-OXO @ night
week 7-8: 2 Zol, 4 PCT; 6-OXO @ night
week 9: 4 PCT
week 10:3 PCT
week 11: 2 PCT
* Only week 8 do i run the 4 PCT

 

[mixedup]

Hey good luck seems like a very nice cycle that you have worked out. I am very interested to see the trn/pher results and the difference when you add in the zol

 

[Bildo_21]

Hey good luck seems like a very nice cycle that you have worked out. I am very interested to see the trn/pher results and the difference when you add in the zol

Yea im going to post updates every week

 

[smokey the bear]

good luck man looks pretty good, this is gonna be a heavy duty load for an all oral cycle, im very interested in your results...

 

[Bildo_21]

Yea that makes 2 of us. I did a cycle of Masterdrol & M1-P last year, 4 weeks long gained 18 lbs. Im 12lbs. heavier and 2 %BF leaner than i was 1 year ago at this time. So i can only hope for the same thing this time, im pretty sure i'll get all that and more

 

[Bildo_21]

It has begun today. I'm starting out @ an official 171Lbs. 8~9%BF. I took measurements and pictures today. Im going to post updates ever 2 weeks. The only thing i have noticed to be different today is vasularity. 24/7 veins, even the ones in my legs are protruding. Usually the leg veins never protrude. Just something for thought

 

[mesco]

how many calories are you gonna be trying to take in each day?

 

[Bildo_21]

I eat between 2300 & 2500 calories 6 days a week with a cheat meal sunday night (moms home cookin') Leg day i try to get about 2700.
On 2300-2500 the caloric breakdown is C/P/F- 185/310/55
On Leg day the breakdown is 300/225/55
* Every 2 weeks i up my carbs until i get to 300/300/70

 

[mesco]

im looking forward to your updates/journal as i was thinking about running this same stack after my current cycle.

what exactly does your pct look like?

and did you drop the Creatine+Glutamine 20 Grams a day from your first post?

 

[Bildo_21]

No im stil on the 20 & 20, and im gonna switch to CEE post cycle to maybe reduce some of the bloat although I really dont have any after the 1st week. My PCT looks like this:
Week 8: with the Zol, 4 AX pct
Week 9: 4 AX pct & 2 Now testo-jack
week 10: 3 AX pct & 2 Now testo-jack
Week 11:2 AX pct & 2 Now testo-jack
The reason im not doing any Nolva or Clomid is because well 1 i cant get any, and 2 im taking the 6-OXO so i should be cool, i took legal gear masterdrol which is suppose to be the harset and not a single side so i think im in the clear

 

[Bildo_21]

alright its been one week officaly im going to update in another thread, ill do another update next week then after that i'll do the updates every 2 weeks.

 

[joebo]

Would have really liked to see before and after bloodwork on this one...

 

[smokey the bear]

The reason im not doing any Nolva or Clomid is because well 1 i cant get any, and 2 im taking the 6-OXO so i should be cool, i took legal gear masterdrol which is suppose to be the harset and not a single side so i think im in the clear

dude, 6oxo is not going to prevent any shutdown on this cycle. it is only going to reduce the inherant bloat brought on by the PH's your taking. plus, using only the AI's in anabolic xtremes pct product may cause estrogen rebound and that is all bad. Lack of access is not a legit excuse to neglect nolva during pct and having on hand during cycle, a few board sponsors carry 'research chemicals' which include SERMs like nolva and clomid. for 25-35 dollars you cant go wrong, and your assured a tried, tested, and effective pct.

good luck with the rest of your cycle, and look into those research chems, you will be happy you did.

 

[smokey the bear]

ohh bildo, i read your other post in the anabolic section were you got roasted a bit for your age... i myself am 19 years old and have a long list of experience with both old and new PH's. Ive learned quite a bit over time, both from trial and error, and immense research on this and other sites. i can honestly say from experience that the difference between an adequate pct and a lacking one are not as pronounced when you are a PH novice and/or are youthful like you and i. please check out SERMs, or at least say you did to make me happy

 

[mesco]

dude, 6oxo is not going to prevent any shutdown on this cycle. it is only going to reduce the inherant bloat brought on by the PH's your taking. plus, using only the AI's in anabolic xtremes post cycle therapy product may cause estrogen rebound and that is all bad. Lack of access is not a legit excuse to neglect nolva during post cycle therapy and having on hand during cycle, a few board sponsors carry 'research chemicals' which include SERMs like nolva and clomid. for 25-35 dollars you cant go wrong, and your assured a tried, tested, and effective post cycle therapy.

good luck with the rest of your cycle, and look into those research chems, you will be happy you did.

how would pct look like if you set it up? what would you run with the cycle? i dont have much experience with PH's just AS's, thanks

 

[smokey the bear]

well, 6oxo is fine during cycle to keep bloat down. personally, i use formestane on cycle for estrogen control. i am planning on running a six week cycle somewhat similar to bildos which begins in one week. my planned pct looks something like this:

wk1/day1-2- clomid@300mg
wk1/day3-7- clomid@200mg
wk2-nolva@60mg
wk3-nolva@40mg, atd@25mg
wk4-nolva@20mg, atd@25mg, 6oxo@250mg
wk5-nolva@10mg, atd@25mg, 6oxo@350mg
wk6-tribulus@4g, [email protected], avena sativa@3g, [email protected]

fenugreek, zma and tribulus throughout pct @ moderate dose. then week six of pct double the trib and fen, add avena sativa.

the reason i add more 6oxo instead of just increasing the atd is that i feel like absolute crap on atd and dont like using it at high doses or for a long period of time.

i also take all my ancillaries like liver and bp, and other cardiac aids throughout the cycle and pct.

 

[Bildo_21]

yea i agree about the formestane smoky. Although when i needed it, it was out of stock so i was turned to the 6-OXO, and due to the time i needed this cycle done by it couldnt have waited for it to come back in stock. Your pct w/ the fenugrek,trib +zma is similar to what is in the Now testo-jack, its very inexpensive and effective JMO. This is what im using.
-Smoky did u see my update on my cycle??????

 

[smokey the bear]

i saw your updated cycle and it looks pretty solid. I'm not sure i agree with running the zol into pct. even tho it is supposed to be only mildly suppressive, you are still putting exogenous hormones into your body while trying to kick start your own endogenous hormone production. my only suggestion would be to up the dose of zol to 200mg, and discontinue its use when you begin pct. but do what you will bro, like i said before, it looks pretty decent the way you've got it.

 

[Bildo_21]

i saw your updated cycle and it looks pretty solid. I'm not sure i agree with running the zol into post cycle therapy. even tho it is supposed to be only mildly suppressive, you are still putting exogenous hormones into your body while trying to kick start your own endogenous hormone production. my only suggestion would be to up the dose of zol to 200mg, and discontinue its use when you begin post cycle therapy. but do what you will bro, like i said before, it looks pretty decent the way you've got it.

yes i know what ur saying and where ur comming from. I am going to play this one by ear though. All depends on how i feel,look, and doing in the gym. It is stil almost 6 weeks away so i can "play" with it if need be

 

[BigMattTx]

yes i know what ur saying and where ur comming from. I am going to play this one by ear though. All depends on how i feel,look, and doing in the gym. It is stil almost 6 weeks away so i can "play" with it if need be

If you are not using a SERM, it need be!

Look at the board sponsors and get your ass some Nolva.

 

[Bildo_21]

OK, after some disscusion with other i am not going to cross PCT with Zol. I am goin to start on the formastane in a few days.
-What do u guys think of takeing the creatine mono while on on this cycle-yes/no/maybe. Let me hear it!!!!!!!

 

[SwollOnIron]

well, 6oxo is fine during cycle to keep bloat down. personally, i use formestane on cycle for estrogen control. i am planning on running a six week cycle somewhat similar to bildos which begins in one week. my planned post cycle therapy looks something like this:

wk1/day1-2- clomid@300mg
wk1/day3-7- clomid@200mg
wk2-nolva@60mg
wk3-nolva@40mg, atd@25mg
wk4-nolva@20mg, atd@25mg, 6oxo@250mg
wk5-nolva@10mg, atd@25mg, 6oxo@350mg
wk6-tribulus@4g, [email protected], avena sativa@3g, [email protected]

fenugreek, zma and tribulus throughout post cycle therapy @ moderate dose. then week six of post cycle therapy double the trib and fen, add avena sativa.

the reason i add more 6oxo instead of just increasing the atd is that i feel like absolute crap on atd and dont like using it at high doses or for a long period of time.

i also take all my ancillaries like liver and bp, and other cardiac aids throughout the cycle and post cycle therapy.

OK, this is what kills me when I see nolva recommended all the freaking time. First, nolva is hepatotoxic (liver). Second, nolva is not truly dose dependent. Brest cancer research (look at pubmed) shows the same effects with 5mg, 10mg, 20mg, 40mg. For the average user nolva is not truly needed, and IMO is entirely overdosed. 5mg is all you need. Try 10mg if it makes you "feel" better, but 40mg+ has NO scientific backing. I myself do not use Nolva, and I do not plan to (let the imminent flame begin).

Honestly, you spend 5-200hours reading about how to stack your PH (which are all questionable compounds, with NO scientific safety record) but will happily dose 60mg of an exceptionally toxic compound with out ever even reading about it.

I know "everyone responds differently" and some people (OK half of the bb world) "believe" nolva is essential to PCT...but come on - you still find every newb in existance claiming to get 15lbs from their first month of creatine too (and it was all muscle - honest). I am not trying to bash on anyone or even nolva. just thought I would try and shed a little light on a different perspective.

 

[smokey the bear]

OK, this is what kills me when I see nolva recommended all the freaking time. First, nolva is hepatotoxic (liver). Second, nolva is not truly dose dependent. Brest cancer research (look at pubmed) shows the same effects with 5mg, 10mg, 20mg, 40mg. For the average user nolva is not truly needed, and IMO is entirely overdosed. 5mg is all you need. Try 10mg if it makes you "feel" better, but 40mg+ has NO scientific backing. I myself do not use Nolva, and I do not plan to (let the imminent flame begin).

Honestly, you spend 5-200hours reading about how to stack your PH (which are all questionable compounds, with NO scientific safety record) but will happily dose 60mg of an exceptionally toxic compound with out ever even reading about it.

I know "everyone responds differently" and some people (OK half of the bb world) "believe" nolva is essential to post cycle therapy...but come on - you still find every newb in existance claiming to get 15lbs from their first month of creatine too (and it was all muscle - honest). I am not trying to bash on anyone or even nolva. just thought I would try and shed a little light on a different perspective.

well bro, you are totally entitled to your own opinion. and i was asked what i do personally and not exactly what would i recommend to the average Joe. yet, it is very interesting how you could help shed light on a substance which you have no experience with. how would you know the specific physiological response of your own body to different types of SERMs when all you have used are AI's. FYI unlike AI's, SERMs do not cause estrogen rebound.

my question is, why did you call me out me for the nolva dose when clomid is more toxic and my doses are higher.

i do think that lower doses of SERMs might be a good idea if you are using additionally AI's, except that AI's are pretty harsh on your cholesterol levels too. so i opt to use SERM to prevent gyno early in pct while maintaining more stable estrogen levels....i aso would play the pct by feel after the clomid, if your natural juices are flowing well right off the bat then there is not a whole lot of reason to keep taking high doses for an extended period of time.

 

[SwollOnIron]

No man, nothing personal - honest. I was quoting you as an illustration not an attack. Nolva, clomid and SERMs in general are over used IMO.

Honestly, you can have your opionion, and I respect it - I was just attempting to stimulate conversation/thought on other issues surrounding nolva and serms (not truly dose dependent, toxic, etc).

No one ever says "be careful with nolva it is hard on your liver" - so I thought I would try and make people aware that it is.

You are right, I have no personal experience through use - but I have spent a fair amount of time learning more about the functions of nolva (and its dangers) vs a generic 40/40/20/20 dosing protocol that is commonly endorsed.

Just contributing to the debate - not attacking. I am sorry if I came off that way.

 

[smokey the bear]

its all good bro, and thanks for mentioning the potential toxicity of the said products. this is one of the many reasons i continue running ancillaries throughout my cycle and pct. but seriously tho, i have run a **** load of cycles with only an AI in the protocol. then, very recently, i used nolva for the first time during pct and found it to be far superior @20mg stacked with low dosed AIs, then all AIs solo i have run for pct.

You may be correct that an increase in dose does not necessarily yield an equal increase in effects. but you do have to consider that when doing research about nolva and it use in breast cancer, doctors may recommend a lower dose because the serms are most likely going to be used for a longer period of time compared to an AAS PCT.

 

[Bildo_21]

alright are u 2 done with the cat fight????Nah im just joking this is great stuff to know for future experiences, thanks a ton. Back to the big question?????????????
Creatine mono on cycle? Should i go with 10-20 grams a day or just go 5 post workout and load up after my cycles over. Me and the guys @ the gym have had much debate so i figured id ask u guys.....

 

[mixedup]

Swollon that information is very interesting i was wondering for people that do use Nolva do you think the usual 4 weeks could be cut down?

 

[SwollOnIron]

Swollon that information is very interesting i was wondering for people that do use Nolva do you think the usual 4 weeks could be cut down?

Well, unfortunately, I do not think I know enough to acurately answer that question.

I DO think the dosage should be cut down regardless of time.

The intent of AI's/ATD and Nolva/SERMS is to modify estrogen levels and redulce the probability of estrogen related sides. IMO you would want to use what ever compund you have chosen to modify estrogen/sides until a time when your natural test is back to a normal level - resulting in effective HTPA function and test/estro ratios. So....with this im mind, IF nolva is what you MUST use, a low dose (dependent on cycle length and time) seems more appropriate to me.

The safest approach IMO (excluding weekly labs to validate success) would be to take your comound of choice for a time equal to time ON cycle (common recommendation), or even a week or two longer (since most doing oral PH are not taking injectable HCG). So nolva at 5-10mg for 6 weeks after a 4 week SD cycle is uperior IMO to 60/40/30/20. But then again, it is YOUR body - always make a choice you are comfortable with based on your own opinion. If my opinion is a load of crap and I wind up with gyno it's my problem.

 

[BigMattTx]

Well, unfortunately, I do not think I know enough to acurately answer that question.

I DO think the dosage should be cut down regardless of time.

The intent of AI's/ATD and Nolva/SERMS is to modify estrogen levels and redulce the probability of estrogen related sides. IMO you would want to use what ever compund you have chosen to modify estrogen/sides until a time when your natural test is back to a normal level - resulting in effective HTPA function and test/estro ratios. So....with this im mind, IF nolva is what you MUST use, a low dose (dependent on cycle length and time) seems more appropriate to me.

The safest approach IMO (excluding weekly labs to validate success) would be to take your comound of choice for a time equal to time ON cycle (common recommendation), or even a week or two longer (since most doing oral PH are not taking injectable HCG). So nolva at 5-10mg for 6 weeks after a 4 week superdrol cycle is uperior IMO to 60/40/30/20. But then again, it is YOUR body - always make a choice you are comfortable with based on your own opinion. If my opinion is a load of crap and I wind up with gyno it's my problem.

You are wayyy off about Nolva. First of all, with the dosing, the tests that you read that say that 5mg is enough are not done on bodybuilders coming off of an AAS cycle with HPTA shutdown. Perhaps 5mg is enough for breast cancer patients but a higher dose is needed for the purpose bodybuilders use it for, especially if using it after an SD cycle. Nolva is somewhat liver toxic but if you start an AAS cycle, the relative damage done by the Nolva is not of concern. 40mg is good for the first week and then down to 20mg for the following weeks of PCT. I agree not to use it past what you need because it may do further liver damage but it is relatively VERY SAFE.

 

[mesco]

how come you didnt want to use or how come no one else suggest to use Arimidex (LiquiDex) for bloating? ive used it before with AAS cycles and it worked great just curious if it would be the same deal with PH's.