Am I the Only One?

[Dadof2]

Does anyone have a problem with what is going on with the whole Mormon compound in Texas? No I don't mean anything with the religion, or the alleged kid sex. What I have a problem with is the way that the government broke the law and essentially kidnapped 400+ children.

Now before you respond calling me some kind of ******* please read the entire post.

The entire reason that the State of Texas went onto the compound in the first place was because of a complaint they recieved. Supposendly a 16 year old girl contacted the authorities and stated that she had been abused by her husband at this Mormon compound. The problem is that it turns out that this girl doesn't seem to exist. This complaint was made via a phone call. This is where my problem with the whole situation lies.

Authorities need sufficient probable cause to do things like make arrest, bust drug dealers etc. It is not like I can call the cops and say "This guy EasyEJL has steroids by his house, go bust him" and the cops go and bust down Easy's door. Sure they can use this as a tip and investigate the situation, but they have no ability at that point to go search his property. And if they do bust down Easy's door and find all kinds of criminal activity and arrest him, the case would be thrown out in court because of the illegality of the search. (I am not picking on you Easy, you are just one of the best known names around here)

As such I would have no problem with this situation if a member of this compound showed up at a battered womans shelter or a police station and based on her condition the Mormon compound was raided. But a phone call from a person who may not exist????? They should have at least had to investigate this situation before they started taking kids into state custody. If they had some legitimate probable cause to go into the compound I woudn't have made this thread.

I have worked with child services on many occasions in the past, and it is usually very difficult to take a child away from its parents. You have to prove that some bad stuff has gone down. Yet, 400+ kids were taken away based on what could be a prank call.

I know this doesn't seem like a big deal because none of us really give a care about some Morman cult nutjobs, but we should care. Just because these people are different does not mean that their rights can be violated at will by their government. The government cannot enforce the law by breaking the law.

 

[Xodus]

No, you are not the only one that thinks they completely overstepped their bounds on this one.

I hate this 'new regime' of the last 30 years...

 

[Dadof2]

No, you are not the only one that thinks they completely overstepped their bounds on this one.

I hate this 'new regime' of the last 30 years...

What I fear the most is that this government abuse is going to lead to another Oklahoma City type bombing. The last time a terrorist attack happened on US soil we got the Patriot Act. God only knows what will happen next.

 

[Xodus]

What I fear the most is that this government abuse is going to lead to another Oklahoma City type bombing. The last time a terrorist attack happened on US soil we got the Patriot Act. God only knows what will happen next.

It is time for the government to be afraid of its citizens again.

 

[Nightwanderer]

Was there obvious signs of abuse when the cops actually came through though?
because as you can easily see on trash tv shows like cops, a husband could beat his wife, she could call the cops to report it, and when they come to check on it and she, out of intimidation from the abuser lies and says it never happened, but it's obvious
to the cops she's just scared or misplacing love/sympathy for the abuser, etc etc...

 

[SilentBob187]

Wouldn't a distressed phone call of any kind, even if it turns out to be fake, be considered probable cause for law enforcement to investigate the situation? I'm not justifying the actions, just playing devil's advocate on this one.

 

[Nightwanderer]

Wouldn't a distressed phone call of any kind, even if it turns out to be fake, be considered probable cause for law enforcement to investigate the situation? I'm not justifying the actions, just playing devil's advocate on this one.

yeah that's what I was saying, I mean, just because joe resident goes 'No really, i promise officer, everything's cool, nothing happened' doesn't change anything as long as the alleged phone call actually took place and is on record. I mean, in that case, what's the harm in clearing the kid's out of harm's way until everyone gets their facts straight? this is all based purely on the op though, which doesn't say much other than a woman called for abuse and supposedly she doesn't exist and the cops came in anyway....

 

[In Hulk]

Yes I have a problem with it. It's because the powers that be have a problem with their unconventional and secluded life style. Yes it's a violation of the law, yes the authorities overstepped their boundaries... When don't they?

 

[EasyEJL]

its a tough one. But I think the real question to me is "were they doing forced arranged marriages of 15 year old girls to men" and if the answer is yes then to hell with the bunch of them. This is the US, not india or china. Freedom of religion doesn't buy you the right to do human sacrifice either

I don't even mind the polygamy part, so long as the girls were of legal marrying age for Texas when it happened. Couldn't imagine doing it myself, like I want more headaches.

 

[EasyEJL]

Ah and the important part is when they knock on the door and say "we'd like to ask you a few questions may we come in" you treat them just like they were vampires and say no, and step outside to talk

 

[SilentBob187]

Ah and the important part is when they knock on the door and say "we'd like to ask you a few questions may we come in" you treat them just like they were vampires and say no, and step outside to talk

Indeed. Garlic helps too, for vampires.

 

[Mrs. Gimpy!]

its a tough one. But I think the real question to me is "were they doing forced arranged marriages of 15 year old girls to men" and if the answer is yes then to hell with the bunch of them. This is the US, not india or china. Freedom of religion doesn't buy you the right to do human sacrifice either

I don't even mind the polygamy part, so long as the girls were of legal marrying age for Texas when it happened. Couldn't imagine doing it myself, like I want more headaches.

i couldn't have said it better :thumbsup:

 

[neoborn]

its a tough one. But I think the real question to me is "were they doing forced arranged marriages of 15 year old girls to men" and if the answer is yes then to hell with the bunch of them. This is the US, not india or china. Freedom of religion doesn't buy you the right to do human sacrifice either

I don't even mind the polygamy part, so long as the girls were of legal marrying age for Texas when it happened. Couldn't imagine doing it myself, like I want more headaches.

To be honest rights are rights and every depraved soul deserves their own rights, and the right to be tried, otherwise you lose the whole system that is designed to protect the people. The .Gov becomes Judge / Jury and Executioner. It's easy to wave it off, would be a different story I'll bet if these were allegations towards you and your family and you were on the receiving end..

Everyone is righteous until it's them getting the rodney king night stick awards....

 

[t3stxlr4titud]

for everybody complaining, go move to Iraq or another backwards place. There is a cost to freedom, and if you violate the rights of others, then you should lose your rights.

edit: just pisses me off with all the complaining.

-TF

 

[Xodus]

for everybody complaining, go move to Iraq or another backwards place. There is a cost to freedom, and if you violate the rights of others, then you should lose your rights.

edit: just pisses me off with all the complaining.

-TF

The 'cost of freedom' does not include trampling on individuals rights by the government that was enacted to protect and uphold those same rights.


I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences of too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson (1791)


How about all of those people that feel they are too irresponsible to make a life and decisions for themselves move to some of nanny countries with a ruler who knows 'whats best for them'.

These are the fundamental principles that this country was founded upon, I like them and will vehemently defend them, if you don't, you get the f*ck out.

 

[Dadof2]

Wouldn't a distressed phone call of any kind, even if it turns out to be fake, be considered probable cause for law enforcement to investigate the situation? I'm not justifying the actions, just playing devil's advocate on this one.

This is sort of a tight rope to walk.

Yes, upon recieving a 911 call (even if it is just a 911 hangup) the vast majority of police jurisdictions will respond to check out the situation.

However, upon responding the cops would not be able to do much more than knock on the door and wait for a response. If someone answered the door and wasn't obviously distressed, beaten, etc. the cop would not have the pc to further investigate by entering the home. Conversely if the person who answered looked like they just took a frying pan upside the head the cop could then enter the house even if the person who answered the door was protesting.

All that being said, my understanding of this particular scenario is that the call was placed to either child protective services or a battered womans shelter. In this situation CPS would have to act much like a responding patrolman, and at the most be able to knock on a door and see what was up. Not go in with the Texas Rangers and start taking kids.

There still isn't enough evidence after all this time to justify their taking all of those children into state custody. It is generally very difficult, and usually a matter for the court to decide when it comes to removing a child from its parents. In this instance it was clear that these children were removed because of the religious persuasion of the parents.

 

[Dadof2]

its a tough one. But I think the real question to me is "were they doing forced arranged marriages of 15 year old girls to men" and if the answer is yes then to hell with the bunch of them. This is the US, not india or china. Freedom of religion doesn't buy you the right to do human sacrifice either

I don't even mind the polygamy part, so long as the girls were of legal marrying age for Texas when it happened. Couldn't imagine doing it myself, like I want more headaches.

I agree with you in that if these men were guilty of forcing themselves upon children that they should be prosecuted.

However, this isn't a freedom of religion issue, this is a civil rights issue. In this country your home, or in this case compound, is your castle and the state cannot just barge in on you for no good reason.

As someone who has been a part of more than a few raids, and search warrants there is a reasonable expectation of probable cause that has to be met before the authorities are able to burst into a house. Even when I know that there is drugs in someones house or some other illegal activity I need to bring more than my suspicion to a judge in order to get a warrant. I need to show him that my suspicion is based on something solid.

If this 16 year old girl had appeared to police and made the complaint, there would be no problem in getting a search warrant and arrest warrant for her husband. However, the complaintant in this instance doesn't seem to exist. That means that some member of CPS could have easily staged this call because she/he suspected something was up.

We need to tread carefully here, because this is a dangerous precedent to be setting in our country.

 

[EasyEJL]

for sure, this incident is right on that edge.

 

[Nightwanderer]

Ah and the important part is when they knock on the door and say "we'd like to ask you a few questions may we come in" you treat them just like they were vampires and say no, and step outside to talk

lol omg, someone else who thinks of it that way! For some reason every time I've had to speak to an officer on a residential property, I always have flashes in my mind of vampires and the supposed permissive boundary thing, lol.

 

[t3stxlr4titud]

The 'cost of freedom' does not include trampling on individuals rights by the government that was enacted to protect and uphold those same rights.


I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences of too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

Thomas Jefferson (1791)


How about all of those people that feel they are too irresponsible to make a life and decisions for themselves move to some of nanny countries with a ruler who knows 'whats best for them'.

These are the fundamental principles that this country was founded upon, I like them and will vehemently defend them, if you don't, you get the f*ck out.

So let some individual trample the rights of young girls. there is a thin line and two many people who try to get over and the sheep need to be protected from the wolves from time to time.

-TF

 

[t3stxlr4titud]

I agree with you in that if these men were guilty of forcing themselves upon children that they should be prosecuted.

However, this isn't a freedom of religion issue, this is a civil rights issue. In this country your home, or in this case compound, is your castle and the state cannot just barge in on you for no good reason.

As someone who has been a part of more than a few raids, and search warrants there is a reasonable expectation of probable cause that has to be met before the authorities are able to burst into a house. Even when I know that there is drugs in someones house or some other illegal activity I need to bring more than my suspicion to a judge in order to get a warrant. I need to show him that my suspicion is based on something solid.

If this 16 year old girl had appeared to police and made the complaint, there would be no problem in getting a search warrant and arrest warrant for her husband. However, the complaintant in this instance doesn't seem to exist. That means that some member of CPS could have easily staged this call because she/he suspected something was up.

We need to tread carefully here, because this is a dangerous precedent to be setting in our country.

You shouldn't be a drug dealer than and your house wouldn't get raideid.

Where there is smoke there is fire.

-TF

 

[Dadof2]

You shouldn't be a drug dealer than and your house wouldn't get raideid.

Where there is smoke there is fire.

-TF

You are missing the point.

Yes drug dealers should get raided, but they cannot be raided until sufficient probable cause has been established to raid them in the first place.

A one time phone call from a person who may not exist is not and never will be sufficient probable cause to raid someones home.

And I don't know if your use of the term "you" was general or specific to me, but I have never been raided I am not a drug dealer. I do the raiding.

 

[Xodus]

So let some individual trample the rights of young girls. there is a thin line and two many people who try to get over and the sheep need to be protected from the wolves from time to time.

-TF

IF they find that girl. As of yet, they haven't. And I am not ANTI-PUNISHMENT/ANTI-LAW. If a person is found guilty of abuse, then they should be punished for it, but you cannot trash civil liberties in the pursuit of that person.

Also, lets say there was an alleged account of abuse in a small town, would it be ok for the government to step in, take all of the children from the town and wait to 'get it sorted'?

 

[EasyEJL]

I think that in the initial "check" they found that all the households were polygamists, which is illegal.... not that I necessarily agree that the way it was handled was the best, but i'm not sure.

 

[Bionic]

Just briefly heard [on the news teaser] that the "call" may made by a Colorado woman with a history of claiming child-endangerment on others. This story is FAR from over.

 

[Xodus]

Just briefly heard [on the news teaser] that the "call" may made by a Colorado woman with a history of claiming child-endangerment on others. This story is FAR from over.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN2435250920080425?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

Just read this little quote:

"Local media reports have suggested the calls that sparked the raid may have been a hoax by a woman in Colorado Springs, Colorado, who has a history of such acts.

Azar said it did not matter if it was a hoax or not because evidence of abuse was being unearthed."

 

[Dadof2]

More teenage mothers emerge in Texas polygamy probe | U.S. | Reuters

Just read this little quote:

"Local media reports have suggested the calls that sparked the raid may have been a hoax by a woman in Colorado Springs, Colorado, who has a history of such acts.

Azar said it did not matter if it was a hoax or not because evidence of abuse was being unearthed."

This is what makes this situation so crazy. In criminal justice circles this is known as "The Fruit of the Poisonous Tree". The idea is that if the source of the evidence is tainted (ill gotten from an illegal search) then the evidence itself is also tainted and cannot be used in court.

This debacle should be thrown out of court asap, but apparantly the State of Texas has little regard for the whole protection under the Constitution thing.