How you get hosed when oil companies cut production
- Thread starter ReaperX
- Start date
AM07
Well-known member
But you have to understand, if the government oversteps its bounds too much (U.S. government has already overstepped its bounds to a large extent compared to 50 years ago, but the sheep in this country are too stupid to realize it), people will start yelling and shouting, and some will start to take matters into their own hands. It doesn't seem like the people have the power to do much in this country, but in the end, if **** gets way out of hand, we will.
Dr Packenwood
Well-known member
The main problem is production. Production is already at max capacity. They ONLY way to force a curbed consumption is to raise prices. If an accident or shut down occurs, it causes a shortage, so most refineries operate at about 80% capacity. You can have all the raw materials in the world but if you can't get them processed, you have no new product.
I can guarantee you that if gas was $1.00 per gallon, and the refineries said "Please conserve" most people would say '**** you. I can afford it.' and they'd consume every last drop they could. Well, this causes a shortage, then NO ONE has gasoline and everything comes to a screeching halt.
They raise the price enough to curb consumption, their production can go down a little to allow some room for error, shut downs, routine maintainence etc, and everyone has some gas available.
One sure fire way to reduce the overall price of gas is building refineries. The hippies seem to be able to stop this at every juncture. If memories serves me correctly, the last refinery built was in the 70's.
I can guarantee you that if gas was $1.00 per gallon, and the refineries said "Please conserve" most people would say '**** you. I can afford it.' and they'd consume every last drop they could. Well, this causes a shortage, then NO ONE has gasoline and everything comes to a screeching halt.
They raise the price enough to curb consumption, their production can go down a little to allow some room for error, shut downs, routine maintainence etc, and everyone has some gas available.
One sure fire way to reduce the overall price of gas is building refineries. The hippies seem to be able to stop this at every juncture. If memories serves me correctly, the last refinery built was in the 70's.
bioman
Well-known member
On the environmental front I have seen very little evidence of any fierce opposition to well built refineries within the last decade. The US govt simply over regulated that industry the same way they did with the nuclear industry. Who's fault is that..the "powerful" hippie consortium (ahem..), or grandstanding politicians who talk environmental and line their pockets with oil stock by creating shortages? Hmmmm, I wonder.
jmh80
Well-known member
Bio - that's not the case, sorry. Upstream installations in Florida were battled pretty heavily by the environmentalists and tourism people.
I only hear tidbits of that stuff at work. But - I have heard some small details of the environmental groups lashing out.
Look at the recent Point Thompson lease sale in Alaska. Ak was for drilling over there - not the greenies. They've apparently filed suit in court to stop Shell (or whoever) from drilling a test well.
ReaperX
Well-known member
lol, I never was too hot at graphic designs.
MBA-Finance conc. and Econ. conc.
I wouldn't mind replacing Suze Orman on tv. I'm sure people would tune in to watch me. I'll holler at am.com if I can get my own show.
I decided to get an MBA after I decided I didn't like my undergrad/masters before which was an accelerated M.S. in biochem and B.S. in industrial health/safety. Biochem sucks. Organic Chem sucks even more. Analytical chem sucks the most.
ReaperX
Well-known member
heck, for the oil companies that's 'money in the bank'.
They get more cash, don't have to refine as much oil. Cutting production is way too easy not to cash in on. Good for them, bad for us.
bioman
Well-known member
I was talking about no one building refineries and I stand by my statement there. Refineries are generally built in coastal industrial zones that are already trashed.
Every state out there has issues with mineral exploration..not only from the "greens" but from people who become what I call "instant environmentalists" when something is proposed in their backyard. It gets to be a NIMBY issue as much or more than a true environmental one in many, many cases.
In much of the West you can blame (southern) Californians who got rich off real estate, moved to someplace they thought was a little scenic Eden, then found out about a test well project near them and raised hell about it. They're not environmentalists IMO..but they'll cry up a green river when it suits their needs. Even though they trashed their state of origin, they'll move to AZ and try to tell me what's up.
FYI..I'm an environmental consultant who has worked for the oil companies as well as the NIMBY's and non-profit environmental groups. I've seen the good and bad aspects of each of these groups...and believe me, you don't want any one of them to have their way entirely. The trick is to have a decent level of compromise.
bioman
Well-known member
As for AK sales..well yeah the Alaskan state leg was for it...they were being paid off to. Gov Ted Stevens in ass deep in a corruption probe for accepting bribes from an umbrella corporation backed by the oil companies to get him to open more areas for lease. I'd be pro-development too if you lined my pockets with 5 mil;. lol
B5150
Legend
I see absolutely no difference in the upper middle class ($75k+ annual) and above making any significant changes because of gas prices.
Where I live there are single passenger Excursions, Navigators, Suburbans, 3500 Duallies, H's, H2's, H3's towing their 22ft boats and watercraft and off road vehicles doing 80-85+ in traffic all over the roads. The upper middle class does not feel it like the rest of us and do nothing to conserve anything.
We have the cheapest gas prices in the world. Until people (the minority in the upper middle class and upper class) are willing to say enough is enough on the prices I don't see anything changing what so ever. People are not going to carpool, they are not going to by economy cars and they certainly not go to boycot filling their 35 gallon tanks with $3.79/g premium unleaded a couple few times a week.
My little rant comes nowhere near expressing my disgust with thus whole supply and demand on fuel as well as the oil companies and the auto manufacturers. It does not have to be this way but it is because someone is getting rich by doing so and it is at the expense of the middle and lower class.
I spend more on gas in a month than I do on groceries, utilities, water and sewer.
ReaperX
Well-known member
It is just impossible for a consumer to control the situation. I believe that there was an attempt last year in '07 to boycott gas stations for one day or something like that. The idea of even doing something like that is completely ridiculous. On top of that getting general mass cooperation is impossible, it virtually is.
On top of gasoline being completely 100% inelastic, and in my opinion the ONLY true inelastic product, the consumers have no control, absolutely 0% control over prices.
They can either buy and pay or not buy and somehow find another way to get around, which will involved inconvience and time (i.e. Opportunity cost).
Nabisco
Well-known member
Gas in Sweden is roughly $11-12 US per gallon. They buy by they litre and either ride bicycles or take public transportation. And 80% of the cars are miniature compared to the US market. We have it much better off than the majority of the world. And I don't see the consumer (aka Americans) doing anything until the cost is well over 5-6$/gal.
AM07
Well-known member
I always see people saying things like "we're better off than the rest of the world, quit you're *****in!" and "move somewhere else if you don't like the prices here", blah blah blah. Well, we should be better off than the rest of the world, we're ****ing AMERICA, the land of competition, therefore prices should be lower here than anywhere else in the world.
Nabisco, cars overseas also get much better gas mileage due to having such small motors and being so light. Also, the governments overseas tax the **** out of gas because many of the countries are very liberal and rely on the government to fund everything for them, and what better way for the government to raise money than to tax the **** out of something everyone NEEDS, petrol.
Nabisco, cars overseas also get much better gas mileage due to having such small motors and being so light. Also, the governments overseas tax the **** out of gas because many of the countries are very liberal and rely on the government to fund everything for them, and what better way for the government to raise money than to tax the **** out of something everyone NEEDS, petrol.
Mulletsoldier
Binging on Pure ****ing Rage
What's funny is that as long as the population lives under the guise that individualized action will curtail consumption, we are doomed to over-consume. Ironically, this same internal self-reliance/responsibility is what drives capitalism. If every person in America is convinced that they will end the environmental 'crisis', stop pollution, and cut down on oil consumption by recycling their plastics, and unconvinced that corporate responsibility should be at the forefront, then we are ****ed.
B5150
Legend
Oh, and they do pay higher prices elsewhere in the world because they use nowhere near the volume that we do.
I am not SO much upset with the cost of gas as I am with the lack of alternative.
In the land of urban sprawl we call Arizona (one place responsible for that the destroyed houisng market) there is NO ACCEPTABLE public transportation. The best there is you need to drive several miles to and they are catered (again, back to that class thing) to those with the 9-5 suite jobs in the metro city areas rather than the blue collar slob who works in manufacturing or industry that starts at 5 or 6 AM. Then you need a ride from the bus to work because the routes suck.
I would park my truck today if I could catch a bus 4:15-4:30AM within 3-5 miles of my house that could get me to within a 10-15 minute walk to my work by 4:45-5:00 AM. Then the return would need to be the same as well.
If I paid $10 a day I would be ahead of the game.
I am not SO much upset with the cost of gas as I am with the lack of alternative.
In the land of urban sprawl we call Arizona (one place responsible for that the destroyed houisng market) there is NO ACCEPTABLE public transportation. The best there is you need to drive several miles to and they are catered (again, back to that class thing) to those with the 9-5 suite jobs in the metro city areas rather than the blue collar slob who works in manufacturing or industry that starts at 5 or 6 AM. Then you need a ride from the bus to work because the routes suck.
I would park my truck today if I could catch a bus 4:15-4:30AM within 3-5 miles of my house that could get me to within a 10-15 minute walk to my work by 4:45-5:00 AM. Then the return would need to be the same as well.
If I paid $10 a day I would be ahead of the game.
Nabisco
Well-known member
I'm not saying if you don't like it get out. Nor am I saying that as an excuse for rising price. But other countries and their respective populations have adjusted. I do agree with B5150, we have a very poor system of public transportation. Sweden for instance has, buses, trams, water buses, among their repertoire of public transportation. The Netherlands not only have extensive public transportation, trains, buses, trams, but also have parking garages for bicycles. So the American system of public transportation is crap. But that also is due to the American way of life. Living 50 miles from your job isn't conducive to low cost transportation. Because Americans take for granted fairly cheap cost of gas, and relative ease of purchasing your personal motor vehicle. People choose to live larger distances from their work. And so the American public transportation system cannot be setup to accommodate everyone. I know in the small city I live in that public transportation is halfway decent. And that plenty of people walk and/or ride bicycles to work.
All I'm trying to get across is there are other options. Agreed, public transportation in most places in the States leaves something to be desired. But if we weren't all set on the "right" to own a personal car, then perhaps this wouldn't be such a hot issue. Maybe in the near future, it will come to the point that only wealthy individuals will be able to afford cars. And the gov't will be forced to make changes to public transportation. But as things stand, there really hasn't been an outcry due to raised gas prices. People grumble a little, then move on with their daily lives. So if the general public isn't throwing a ***** fit, then why fix anything?
All I'm trying to get across is there are other options. Agreed, public transportation in most places in the States leaves something to be desired. But if we weren't all set on the "right" to own a personal car, then perhaps this wouldn't be such a hot issue. Maybe in the near future, it will come to the point that only wealthy individuals will be able to afford cars. And the gov't will be forced to make changes to public transportation. But as things stand, there really hasn't been an outcry due to raised gas prices. People grumble a little, then move on with their daily lives. So if the general public isn't throwing a ***** fit, then why fix anything?
bioman
Well-known member
Most of western Europe also is blessed by a near zero rate of population growth. Sure they don't have terrific boom cycles like we do and have massive prosperity like us, but they don't tend to get hit as hard by the bust cycles either.
4 years ago it was all about the bling and now that the cards are finally on the table, people are freaking out and slow to adjust (self included).
4 years ago it was all about the bling and now that the cards are finally on the table, people are freaking out and slow to adjust (self included).