[ReaperX]

since gasoline is an inelastic product, demand will not change significantly and has a pretty damn steep curve. So a tiny change in quantity (cut back production) will force the price to increase to a ridiculous amount. Perfect item to be taxed.

[AM07]

But you have to understand, if the government oversteps its bounds too much (U.S. government has already overstepped its bounds to a large extent compared to 50 years ago, but the sheep in this country are too stupid to realize it), people will start yelling and shouting, and some will start to take matters into their own hands. It doesn't seem like the people have the power to do much in this country, but in the end, if **** gets way out of hand, we will.

[Dr Packenwood]

The main problem is production. Production is already at max capacity. They ONLY way to force a curbed consumption is to raise prices. If an accident or shut down occurs, it causes a shortage, so most refineries operate at about 80% capacity. You can have all the raw materials in the world but if you can't get them processed, you have no new product.

I can guarantee you that if gas was $1.00 per gallon, and the refineries said "Please conserve" most people would say '**** you. I can afford it.' and they'd consume every last drop they could. Well, this causes a shortage, then NO ONE has gasoline and everything comes to a screeching halt.

They raise the price enough to curb consumption, their production can go down a little to allow some room for error, shut downs, routine maintainence etc, and everyone has some gas available.

One sure fire way to reduce the overall price of gas is building refineries. The hippies seem to be able to stop this at every juncture. If memories serves me correctly, the last refinery built was in the 70's.

[bioman]

On the environmental front I have seen very little evidence of any fierce opposition to well built refineries within the last decade. The US govt simply over regulated that industry the same way they did with the nuclear industry. Who's fault is that..the "powerful" hippie consortium (ahem..), or grandstanding politicians who talk environmental and line their pockets with oil stock by creating shortages? Hmmmm, I wonder.

[jmh80]

Originally Posted by bioman

On the environmental front I have seen very little evidence of any fierce opposition to well built refineries within the last decade. The US govt simply over regulated that industry the same way they did with the nuclear industry. Who's fault is that..the "powerful" hippie consortium (ahem..), or grandstanding politicians who talk environmental and line their pockets with oil stock by creating shortages? Hmmmm, I wonder.

Bio - that's not the case, sorry. Upstream installations in Florida were battled pretty heavily by the environmentalists and tourism people.

I only hear tidbits of that stuff at work. But - I have heard some small details of the environmental groups lashing out.

Look at the recent Point Thompson lease sale in Alaska. Ak was for drilling over there - not the greenies. They've apparently filed suit in court to stop Shell (or whoever) from drilling a test well.

[warnerve]

lol, i like the graph. are you a fellow econ major?

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by warnerve

lol, i like the graph. are you a fellow econ major?

lol, I never was too hot at graphic designs.


MBA-Finance conc. and Econ. conc.

I wouldn't mind replacing Suze Orman on tv. I'm sure people would tune in to watch me. I'll holler at am.com if I can get my own show.








I decided to get an MBA after I decided I didn't like my undergrad/masters before which was an accelerated M.S. in biochem and B.S. in industrial health/safety. Biochem sucks. Organic Chem sucks even more. Analytical chem sucks the most.

[ReaperX]

I hear Suze Orman is a lesbian too.

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by bioman

On the environmental front I have seen very little evidence of any fierce opposition to well built refineries within the last decade. The US govt simply over regulated that industry the same way they did with the nuclear industry. Who's fault is that..the "powerful" hippie consortium (ahem..), or grandstanding politicians who talk environmental and line their pockets with oil stock by creating shortages? Hmmmm, I wonder.

heck, for the oil companies that's 'money in the bank'.


They get more cash, don't have to refine as much oil. Cutting production is way too easy not to cash in on. Good for them, bad for us.

[bioman]

Originally Posted by jmh80

Bio - that's not the case, sorry. Upstream installations in Florida were battled pretty heavily by the environmentalists and tourism people.

I only hear tidbits of that stuff at work. But - I have heard some small details of the environmental groups lashing out.

Look at the recent Point Thompson lease sale in Alaska. Ak was for drilling over there - not the greenies. They've apparently filed suit in court to stop Shell (or whoever) from drilling a test well.

I was talking about no one building refineries and I stand by my statement there. Refineries are generally built in coastal industrial zones that are already trashed.

Every state out there has issues with mineral exploration..not only from the "greens" but from people who become what I call "instant environmentalists" when something is proposed in their backyard. It gets to be a NIMBY issue as much or more than a true environmental one in many, many cases.

In much of the West you can blame (southern) Californians who got rich off real estate, moved to someplace they thought was a little scenic Eden, then found out about a test well project near them and raised hell about it. They're not environmentalists IMO..but they'll cry up a green river when it suits their needs. Even though they trashed their state of origin, they'll move to AZ and try to tell me what's up.

FYI..I'm an environmental consultant who has worked for the oil companies as well as the NIMBY's and non-profit environmental groups. I've seen the good and bad aspects of each of these groups...and believe me, you don't want any one of them to have their way entirely. The trick is to have a decent level of compromise.

[bioman]

Originally Posted by bioman

I was talking about no one building refineries and I stand by my statement there. Refineries are generally built in coastal industrial zones that are already trashed.

Every state out there has issues with mineral exploration..not only from the "greens" but from people who become what I call "instant environmentalists" when something is proposed in their backyard. It gets to be a NIMBY issue as much or more than a true environmental one in many, many cases.

In much of the West you can blame (southern) Californians who got rich off real estate, moved to someplace they thought was a little scenic Eden, then found out about a test well project near them and raised hell about it. They're not environmentalists IMO..but they'll cry up a green river when it suits their needs. Even though they trashed their state of origin, they'll move to AZ and try to tell me what's up.

FYI..I'm an environmental consultant who has worked for the oil companies as well as the NIMBY's and non-profit environmental groups. I've seen the good and bad aspects of each of these groups...and believe me, you don't want any one of them to have their way entirely. The trick is to have a decent level of compromise.

As for AK sales..well yeah the Alaskan state leg was for it...they were being paid off to. Gov Ted Stevens in ass deep in a corruption probe for accepting bribes from an umbrella corporation backed by the oil companies to get him to open more areas for lease. I'd be pro-development too if you lined my pockets with 5 mil;. lol

[B5150]

Originally Posted by AM07

but the sheep in this country are too stupid to realize it), people will start yelling and shouting, and some will start to take matters into their own hands. It doesn't seem like the people have the power to do much in this country, but in the end, if **** gets way out of hand, we will.

Originally Posted by Dr Packenwood

I can guarantee you that if gas was $1.00 per gallon, and the refineries said "Please conserve" most people would say '**** you. I can afford it.' and they'd consume every last drop they could. Well, this causes a shortage, then NO ONE has gasoline and everything comes to a screeching halt.

They raise the price enough to curb consumption, their production can go down a little to allow some room for error, shut downs, routine maintainence etc, and everyone has some gas available.

I see absolutely no difference in the upper middle class ($75k+ annual) and above making any significant changes because of gas prices.

Where I live there are single passenger Excursions, Navigators, Suburbans, 3500 Duallies, H's, H2's, H3's towing their 22ft boats and watercraft and off road vehicles doing 80-85+ in traffic all over the roads. The upper middle class does not feel it like the rest of us and do nothing to conserve anything.

We have the cheapest gas prices in the world. Until people (the minority in the upper middle class and upper class) are willing to say enough is enough on the prices I don't see anything changing what so ever. People are not going to carpool, they are not going to by economy cars and they certainly not go to boycot filling their 35 gallon tanks with $3.79/g premium unleaded a couple few times a week.

My little rant comes nowhere near expressing my disgust with thus whole supply and demand on fuel as well as the oil companies and the auto manufacturers. It does not have to be this way but it is because someone is getting rich by doing so and it is at the expense of the middle and lower class.

I spend more on gas in a month than I do on groceries, utilities, water and sewer.

[ReaperX]

Originally Posted by B5150

I see absolutely no difference in the upper middle class ($75k+ annual) and above making any significant changes because of gas prices.

Where I live there are single passenger Excursions, Navigators, Suburbans, 3500 Duallies, H's, H2's, H3's towing their 22ft boats and watercraft and off road vehicles doing 80-85+ in traffic all over the roads. The upper middle class does not feel it like the rest of us and do nothing to conserve anything.

We have the cheapest gas prices in the world. Until people (the minority in the upper middle class and upper class) are willing to say enough is enough on the prices I don't see anything changing what so ever. People are not going to carpool, they are not going to by economy cars and they certainly not go to boycot filling their 35 gallon tanks with $3.79/g premium unleaded a couple few times a week.

My little rant comes nowhere near expressing my disgust with thus whole supply and demand on fuel as well as the oil companies and the auto manufacturers. It does not have to be this way but it is because someone is getting rich by doing so and it is at the expense of the middle and lower class.

I spend more on gas in a month than I do on groceries, utilities, water and sewer.

It is just impossible for a consumer to control the situation. I believe that there was an attempt last year in '07 to boycott gas stations for one day or something like that. The idea of even doing something like that is completely ridiculous. On top of that getting general mass cooperation is impossible, it virtually is.

On top of gasoline being completely 100% inelastic, and in my opinion the ONLY true inelastic product, the consumers have no control, absolutely 0% control over prices.


They can either buy and pay or not buy and somehow find another way to get around, which will involved inconvience and time (i.e. Opportunity cost).

[B5150]

Revolution!