Does science support the existence of God?

Page 1 of 19 1236 ... Last
  1. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Does science support the existence of God?


    Does science support the existence of God?

    Some people believe that science and religion are incompatible. That may be so, but religion is not the issue I'm defending. Organized religion is man-made and subject to corruption. I am generally not fond of it. Nevertheless, God is real and that data supports it. I am about to demonstrate this with a brief, scientific explanation for those of you who don't know God. The time is close when you will have to make an eternal choice. I never push my beliefs on anybody, but consider the logic and think about it for yourselves. The reconciliation of science and God is fairly simple...

    The Second Law: Life violates entropy and supports the idea of providence.

    The psalmist says, "Great are the works of the Lord, pondered by all those who delight in them." Basically, every scientist seeks to understand the mind of God. Even the most hard-core agnostic or dietistic scientist (as I use to be) accepts on faith that the universe is ordered. There is a rational basis to existence that is evident in this order. This is shown in the laws of science and math. These things are very predicable. So I think many scientists will agree that there is a God. How else can you explain order and design? The Second Law of thermodynamics states that entropy (or disorder) always increases with time, so we basically live in a decaying universe. All you have to do is stop making repairs around the house to see that principle at work! Eventually, the entire universe will "burn out" as it continues to expand and be reduced to nothing more that low level, background radiation, mostly in the form of microwaves. How then does life develop and thrive when the whole universe is in a state of decay? How is it that there are sophisticated, self-replicating organisms in the universe, known as life, that develop in spite of the Second Law? It is know as the Anthropic Principle and it shows divine providence without a doubt. If there was not a God that favored mankind, it simply could not have developed. Life shows an extremely high level of order and complexity that must have been created because order is not the natural state of the universe, disorder is. In other words, there is design and you can’t have design without a designer! Therefore, it stands to scientific reason that there should be a God.

    Darwinian Evolution VS Divine Evolution...

    Atheistic scientists are a different story. They believe that life resulted from random combinations of simple molecules in a spontaneous fashion and that the universe just happened without cause or that it always existed in a static state, but that's not mathematically legitimate and does not agree with common observation. Even Darwin said of the human eye that the odds that it "could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I confess, absurd in the highest possible degree." Darwinian evolution is simply not possible. It requires transitional life forms that do not exist in the fossil record. They are known as the "missing links". Why are there well-defined species in the fossil record with no intermediate forms? There are gigantic gaps in the record that can't be explained. I can sympathize with the rational of an agnostic scientist, but the atheistic scientist cannot be taken seriously. There's just too much evidence against the spontaneous appearance and progression of life or "naturalism" as some call it. Creation is the best explanation, and that is obviously precluded if there if no creator. Besides, if law and order are really the products of a mindless natural process, the human mind must be viewed as an accident too, in a series of many accidents. If that's so, how can we have any confidence that our mind could even recognize the truth anyway? How could a concept like truth even be possible? It just doesn't make logical sense without a God. There would be no need and no reason for any of this observed order, plus the observation itself would necessarily be questionable.

    The First Law: Conservation necessitates creation to explain existence.

    The First Law of thermodynamics is a fundamental, scientific property of the universe that also strongly supports the existence of God. It states that energy can change forms, but cannot be created or destroyed. That means that the overall energy of a finite system remains constant. Man can only refashion existing materials, but can't actually create anything new. The First Law shows that the universe must have had a finite beginning, and that it could not have just created itself. Just like naturalism can't explain the development of life, there isn’t any known natural process that can account for it's own origin. This scientific law is directly oppositional to a godless beginning. The reason energy can not be destroyed is stated in the Bible: God "upholds all things by the word of his power" Heb.1:3 and "preserves and keeps in store his creation." Peter 3:7 So basically, the Second Law shows that the universe must have had a beginning and the First Law proves it could not have just begun by itself. The total energy of the universe is constant, but the amount of available (or ordered) energy is steadily decreasing over time into a disordered form. If you could go back in time, this would reverse itself and order would increase. You would reach a point where total energy was equal to available energy. That was the beginning of time, and time can't go back any farther than that point. That point is known as a singularity and is part of the mystery of a singular God. Since energy can't just create itself, and there was no other imperative for it to exist, there is only one logical scientific conclusion: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". Really, there are no other satisfactory explanations that match the known facts.

    The Cosmological Argument demonstrates there must be some God out there.

    There are only 4 possibilities as to the origin of the universe and thus the existence of life. This is an argument of universal causation and can be summaries like this:

    The universe has no creator/cause.

    1) The universe has never existed so it has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but it’s also rather absurd. We are here! We can all agree that we do exist and something is going on here, right? If this universe is all just an illusion, then the argument can stop here because the question is just an illusion too.

    2) The universe has always existed in a steady state and has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but is also disproved by the First Law and not supported by the Second Law. Mathematically, a static, infinite universe just can't work and doesn't match scientific observations. This is like saying you've always been alive, and will also never die. Once again, we all know better than that.

    The universe has a creator/cause.

    3) The universe has a beginning and created itself. This is a formal contradiction because how can something create itself before it even exists? Nothing finite can cause itself, because it is connected to another, prior cause. Sorry Darwin, self-creation is scientifically disproved and lacks the imperative that this cause and effect universe requires. That's like saying you created yourself, and did it before you were even born!

    4) The universe has a beginning and God created it. By a process of elimination, if we exist in a finite universe that had a beginning that could not have caused itself, then God is the only other explanation. In other words, God is the uncaused cause. The universe exists because of a first cause, there cannot be an infinite series of causes. Therefore, the first cause had to be God.

    Statistical odds of random, advanced life (does God play dice?)

    Let's look at the math involved in universal considerations. Consider a very simple microorganism consisting of 200 cells. Let's not even consider the math on where the cells came from (that's too much math and I'm not that smart) but just think of the combination of those cells to form a primitive organism. The probability of forming that ordered cell system by chance is 1 in 200 factorial. That factorial (expressed as 200!) can be calculated by multiplying all the numbers together from 1 to 200 and yields a result of 1 chance in 10E_375. I will not bother to type out 375 zeros, you get the point. You actually have much better odds of jumping out of a plane with no parachute and surviving the impact every single day for the rest of your life even if you lived to be 100 years old. Would you really gamble your life on odds like that? If you deny the likelihood of God, that’s what you’re doing. As the complexity of a system increases, the odds of an ordered outcome occurring by chance become exponentially dismal, even for the random existence of a simple 200 celled organism, much less a human being. It's safe to say that it takes much more "faith" to be an unbeliever than it does to believe in God.

    Which God specifically?

    So maybe you're starting to take the reality of God a bit more seriously, but why Christianity? Many of the great scientists were Christian, like Boyle, Newton, Pasteur, Joule, Kelvin, Faraday, Flemming, etc.. Biblical creationism correlates with the known scientific facts extremely well. Naturalism doesn't, and neither do any other religions I’ve studies. I have studied this in depth, applied many branches of science and analyzed the facts. I have tested it in my own life to see if it holds scientific truth. No other religion in the world has a god that claimed he could provide what Christ did. No other religious leader even made the claim that they would return from the dead. Only the one, true God of the universe has the power over life and death. Only the God of the Bible even made that claim. So, either Christ is who he said he was (the sovereign God of all) or he was a total lunatic, but he can’t be both.

    What is faith and can it be justified?

    Faith is the substance of things hoped for, so once you see the manifestations of your faith becoming reality, that proof in turn substantiates your faith. Don't just believe blindly, faith demonstrates and justifies itself over time. God cannot be seen (at least I have not seen him) but can be clearly detected by indirect means, just like the position and velocity of sub-atomic particles are measured. It’s scientifically explainable by the Exclusion Principle. You can never know the exact position and velocity of a particle at the same time because one is necessarily modified while observing the other, thus one of those measures can be directly observed and the other must be determined by indirect means. It does not mean that the particle lacks either property of position or velocity, only that they cannot be directly measured together. It's the same with God. You may never observe his existence directly, but when you see the effect God has in your life, it becomes possible to validate the cause.

    The Third Law (angels and demons)

    Newton’s Third Law states that there can be no force without an opposing force to balance it. That means that good cannot even be defined unless there is evil as a reference. In other words, forces come in pairs, so the Third Law would validate that some force should exist in opposition to God. Looking at our world today, the presence of a strong evil force has a scientific explanation that fits this observation. Why would somebody support evil and not side with God? Maybe because they have been deceived since childhood. People have been conditioned to believe that God makes a bunch of restrictive rules, or that they have to work their way to heaven by some church doctrine. Has God ever asked you for anything, or is it really some organization with their rulebooks and their hands in your pocket? God made you free! God is not looking down from heaven shaking his finger, waiting for you to screw up so he can strike you down. That's what some churches and religious establishments want you to think, and that's definitely what your demonic enemies (some people call them Aliens) want you to believe, but it’s a huge lie. You don't need anyone else in order to have a relationship with God. All you have to do is seek truth in prayer, and he does the rest. If you accept what he is, he’ll accept you too, and I can personally testify to this truth. Think about it and consider that the existence of God is more scientifically probably than not.
    Last edited by DR.D; 01-18-2009 at 03:36 PM.

  2. Board Sponsor
    mmowry's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  260 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Age
    43
    Posts
    2,213
    Rep Power
    1601
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    21.83%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Bumpidy Bump


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
  3. New Member
    peece's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Age
    49
    Posts
    475
    Rep Power
    334
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    78.79%

    Best thing I read all day!!

    It's simple, just take a few minutes and go some place private and ask God for the truth and he will reveal it to you.

    I agree DR., what is cool about God is if you really are sincere concerning Truth He wil reveal it to you. Just be honest and tell Him exactly what you think and feel-He can take it

    Then watch what happens

    Strobel rocks
    •   
       

  4. Professional Member
    neoborn's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,406
    Rep Power
    2362
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    47.07%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    1. All depends of what your concept of what "God" is, personally I don't go for the Dood with the long white robe and the beard . Most of the things we read are but a reflection, a snapshot of someone who has glimpsed the truth / love, what we call "God" and tries to relay that truth to the masses. The thing is it's not something that conveys well, you have to experience the truth and love for yourself. "It" is real "God" is real.

    2. It will support it in time when the two meet each other. But then again I'm sure they will try to downplay it into it's most basic form and fail.

    When you try to view "God" "it" it will change form. You can truly see it in the face of a child, you can feel it when in love etc etc.

    <3
  5. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by neoborn View Post
    1. All depends of what your concept of what "God" is, personally I don't go for the Dood with the long white robe and the beard .
    That's more like Santa Clause. Don't tell me he's not real too! I want presents and lots of candieeee! j/k
  6. Senior Member
    anabolicrhino's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Age
    49
    Posts
    2,581
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    39
    Lv. Percent
    21.19%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Smile


    God and religion can be useful tools, if used properly when we need them!

    An atheist was taking a walk through the woods.

    "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself.
    As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
    He turned to look and saw a 7 foot grizzly bear charge towards him.
    He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him.
    He looked over his shoulder again and the bear was even closer.
    He tripped and fell on the ground.
    He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.
    At that instant the Atheist cried out to the Lord.
    Time stopped, the bear froze, the forest was silent. A bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"
    The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps could you make the BEAR a Christian?"
    "Very well," said the voice.
    The light went out.
    The sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together and bowed his head and spoke:
    "Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive through Christ our Lord, Amen."
  7. New Member
    bert4332's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    50
    Rep Power
    162
    Level
    7
    Lv. Percent
    7.46%

    This book changed my life. It's a very hard read, I had to have my laptop with dictionary.com being used at least every 5 minutes. But with your background you should breeze through it.

    Recommended reading: The Pagan Christ
  8. New Member
    AFOX's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  250 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Age
    44
    Posts
    187
    Rep Power
    207
    Level
    11
    Lv. Percent
    82%

    What a great article. It reconfirms everything I know in my heart and mind to be true.
  9. Board Sponsor
    poison's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  190 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Age
    40
    Posts
    5,904
    Rep Power
    37732
    Level
    51
    Lv. Percent
    44.4%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Uh-oh.


























    I'm Jewish, guys, I'll sit this one out. I will say that no man, nor method known to man, can prove the existance of God....NOR disprove it.
  10. Registered User
    Iron Warrior's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  265 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Posts
    5,328
    Rep Power
    13070
    Level
    51
    Lv. Percent
    28.74%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Good stuff Doc
  11. New Member
    EESCHMan's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    318
    Rep Power
    293
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    86.33%

    All these arguments have been refuted.

    Read, "God: The Failed Hypothesis. How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist" by Victor J Stenger

    "When people start using science to argue for their specific beliefs and delusions, to try to claim that they're supported by science, then scientists at least have to speak up and say, "You're welcome to your delusions, but don't say that they're supported by science."

    "The argument from design rests on the notion that everything, but God, must come from something. However, once you agree that it is logically possible for an entity to exist that was not itself created, namely God, then that entity can just as well be the universe itself. Indeed, this is a more economical possibility, not requiring the additional hypothesis of a supernatural power outside the universe....
    ... To [creationists], it is not a matter of logic anyway, but common sense. They see no way that the universe could have just happened, without intent. "How can something come from nothing?" they continue to ask, never wondering how God came from nothing."
    -- Vic Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001), ch. 3

    "The argument from design stands or falls on whether it can be demonstrated that some aspect of the universe such as its origin or biological life could not have come about naturally. The burden of proof is ... on the supernaturalist to demonstrate that something from outside nature must be introduced to explain the data."
    Victor Stenger:
    Professor Emeritus of Physics and Astronomy, University of Hawaii
    Adjunct Professor of Philosophy, University of Colorado
    Research Fellow, Center for Inquiry - Transnational CFI
    Fellow of the Committee for Skeptical Inquiry CSI
  12. Diamond Member
    Jayhawkk's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12,790
    Rep Power
    11681
    Level
    67
    Lv. Percent
    47.73%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProPosting ProPosting AuthorityPosting Veteran

    Just keep it civil please fellas and ladies(if you enter in the thread). Respect each other's opinion while disagreeing
  13. New Member
    peece's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Age
    49
    Posts
    475
    Rep Power
    334
    Level
    17
    Lv. Percent
    78.79%

    The burden of proof is ... on the supernaturalist to demonstrate that something from outside nature must be introduced to explain the data."

    I think that Scientist name was Jesus

    The Word shall become human and live here on earth among us. (He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness) John 1.
  14. Professional Member
    neoborn's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,406
    Rep Power
    2362
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    47.07%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    F'n lol 10/10.
    Quote Originally Posted by anabolicrhino View Post
    God and religion can be useful tools, if used properly when we need them!

    An atheist was taking a walk through the woods.

    "What majestic trees! What powerful rivers! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself.
    As he was walking alongside the river he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
    He turned to look and saw a 7 foot grizzly bear charge towards him.
    He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was closing in on him.
    He looked over his shoulder again and the bear was even closer.
    He tripped and fell on the ground.
    He rolled over to pick himself up but saw the bear right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw and raising his right paw to strike him.
    At that instant the Atheist cried out to the Lord.
    Time stopped, the bear froze, the forest was silent. A bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky, "You deny my existence for all of these years, teach others I don't exist, and even credit creation to a cosmic accident. Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer?"
    The atheist looked directly into the light, "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps could you make the BEAR a Christian?"
    "Very well," said the voice.
    The light went out.
    The sounds of the forest resumed. And then the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together and bowed his head and spoke:
    "Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive through Christ our Lord, Amen."
  15. Professional Member
    neoborn's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,406
    Rep Power
    2362
    Level
    45
    Lv. Percent
    47.07%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    The burden of proof is ... on the supernaturalist to demonstrate that something from outside nature must be introduced to explain the data."
    I must admit I didn't read the whole thing but I thought it was sciences job to provide unrelenting proof that "x" is true or to disprove "x"...maybe I'm incorrect....
  16. New Member
    friction515's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Age
    34
    Posts
    297
    Rep Power
    282
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    95.08%

    The universe has no creator/cause.

    1) It has never existed so it has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but is also rather absurd. We are here! I mean, we can all agree that we do exist and something is going on here, right? If this is all just an illusion, then the argument can stop here because the question is just an illusion too.

    2) It has always existed in a steady state and has no beginning or end. This requires no creator, but is also disproved by the First Law and not supported by the Second Law. Mathematically, a static, infinite universe just can't work and doesn't match observations either. This is like saying you've always been alive and will also never die, and we all know better than that.

    The universe has a creator/cause.

    3) It has a beginning and created itself. This is a formal contradiction because how can something create itself before it even exists? Nothing finite can cause itself because it is connected to another, prior cause. Sorry Darwin, self-creation just can't explain reality and lacks the imperative that this cause and effect universe requires. That's like saying you created yourself and did it before you were even born!

    4) It has a beginning and God created it. By a process of elimination, we can say that if we do indeed exist in a finite universe that had a beginning that it could not have caused itself then God is the only other explanation that works! In other words, God is the uncaused cause. The universe exists because of a first cause, there can not be an infinite series of causes. Therefore, the first cause had to be God.

    To act as if this is the only way of viewing these issues is not entirely accurate. Especially because the last inferrs that it is unintelligent not to believe in god. Why are so many great scientists athiests? Einstein believed in god however he did not believe in a personal god such as the one you are implying. I personally believe in god yet I dont necissarily think it is a belief that i have reached through my higher education.
  17. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by friction515 View Post
    The universe has no creator/cause.

    1) It has never existed so it has no beginning or end. This model requires no creator, but is also rather absurd. We are here! I mean, we can all agree that we do exist and something is going on here, right? If this is all just an illusion, then the argument can stop here because the question is just an illusion too.

    2) It has always existed in a steady state and has no beginning or end. This requires no creator, but is also disproved by the First Law and not supported by the Second Law. Mathematically, a static, infinite universe just can't work and doesn't match observations either. This is like saying you've always been alive and will also never die, and we all know better than that.

    The universe has a creator/cause.

    3) It has a beginning and created itself. This is a formal contradiction because how can something create itself before it even exists? Nothing finite can cause itself because it is connected to another, prior cause. Sorry Darwin, self-creation just can't explain reality and lacks the imperative that this cause and effect universe requires. That's like saying you created yourself and did it before you were even born!

    4) It has a beginning and God created it. By a process of elimination, we can say that if we do indeed exist in a finite universe that had a beginning that it could not have caused itself then God is the only other explanation that works! In other words, God is the uncaused cause. The universe exists because of a first cause, there can not be an infinite series of causes. Therefore, the first cause had to be God.

    To act as if this is the only way of viewing these issues is not entirely accurate. Especially because the last inferrs that it is unintelligent not to believe in god. Why are so many great scientists athiests? Einstein believed in god however he did not believe in a personal god such as the one you are implying. I personally believe in god yet I dont necissarily think it is a belief that i have reached through my higher education.
    OK, well that's why I asked to point it out if you can think of another way? What else would you like to suggest as a possibility? There was either a beginning (thus an end) or it's static, it's either real or an illusion, it's either finite or infinite. Once you answer those questions with the current evidence, my conclusion still stands on the best odds that it was created.
  18. Board Sponsor
    mmowry's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  260 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Age
    43
    Posts
    2,213
    Rep Power
    1601
    Level
    34
    Lv. Percent
    21.83%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting Pro

    I Agree DR D


    Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths . Proverbs 3:5-6
  19. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by poison View Post
    Uh-oh.


























    I'm Jewish, guys, I'll sit this one out. I will say that no man, nor method known to man, can prove the existance of God....NOR disprove it.
    well said. I know it is nice for everyone here to have faith, but it is just that.... faith, not proof
  20. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by EESCHMan View Post
    All these arguments have been refuted.

    "The argument from design rests on the notion that everything, but God, must come from something. However, once you agree that it is logically possible for an entity to exist that was not itself created, namely God, then that entity can just as well be the universe itself. Indeed, this is a more economical possibility, not requiring the additional hypothesis of a supernatural power outside the universe....

    ... To [creationists], it is not a matter of logic anyway, but common sense. They see no way that the universe could have just happened, without intent. "How can something come from nothing?" they continue to ask, never wondering how God came from nothing."
    -- Vic Stenger, Has Science Found God? (2001), ch. 3 ...
    I have not heard you refute anything actually. I asked many question and you have not addressed or attempted to answer any of them. If you can not dismiss them with any substantial argument, you necessarily can not legitimately refute them.

    As for Vic's quote, it makes sense on the surface, but as I already mentioned, God is the uncaused cause. It doesn't require an explanation because it is an intrinsic property of sovereignty!

    The question here is not the origin of the creator, but only the creation. Besides, God already answers this question in the Bible, he has always existed, even before time. I already pointed out that any question you pose before time is impossible to answer anyway because that's where the laws of physics break down. I am only demonstrating why science supports God in our known universe. Your additional arguments are a smoke screen to confuse that fact and should be confined to the realms of metaphysic, not true science like I discuss here.
  21. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    OK, well that's why I asked to point it out if you can think of another way? What else would you like to suggest as a possibility? There was either a beginning (thus an end) or it's static, it's either real or an illusion, it's either finite or infinite. Once you answer those questions with the current evidence, my conclusion still stands on the best odds that it was created.
    by that argument what created the creator?
    I love the first creation argument
  22. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I have not heard you refute anything actually. I asked many question and you have not addressed or attempted to answer any of them. If you can not dismiss them with any substantial argument, you necessarily can not legitimately refute them.

    As for Vic's quote, it makes sense on the surface, but as I already mentioned, God is the uncaused cause. It doesn't require an explanation because it is an intrinsic property of sovereignty!

    The question here is not the origin of the creator, but only the creation. Besides, God already answers this question in the Bible, he has always existed, even before time. I already pointed out that any question you pose before time is impossible to answer anyway because that's where the laws of physics break down. I am only demonstrating why science supports God in our known universe. Your additional arguments are a smoke screen to confuse that fact and should be confined to the realms of metaphysic, not true science like I discuss here.
    so in essence you take your proof from a book created by man, and retranslated countless times? Hmmm..........
  23. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    by that argument what created the creator?
    I love the first creation argument
    I answered that in the post above, it's beyond the scope of this discussion, though that would make another great thread! I have some ideas alright, but who knows. The two issues should not be confused though and do not require a common explanation.
  24. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    I answered that in the post above, it's beyond the scope of this discussion, though that would make another great thread! I have some ideas alright, but who knows. The two issues should not be confused though and do not require a common explanation.
    I dont disagree that it would certainly be a great thread, but you are making the assumption that a "god" had to create this because it must have a beginning, yet why does that not apply to this "god"?
  25. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    so in essence you take your proof from a book created by man, and retranslated countless times? Hmmm..........
    No, I take my proof from science and apply it to that book! You got it exactly backwards. Besides, the Bible is written by man yes, but the inspired word of God nonetheless.
  26. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    No, I take my proof from science and apply it to that book! You got it exactly backwards. Besides, the Bible is written by man yes, but the inspired word of God nonetheless.
    that is a statement based on faith not based on factual evidence.

    lets move forward a few thousand years after the creation of the OT, take a couple of truly "inspired" men and leave them alone in conditions where they feel they are persecuted and could in fact not be of the right mind, and give them a pen and paper, they might also write some interesting things. Also, the modern thoought regarding them would be to send them to bellvue (NYC mental institution)

    My point being, that even if (big if) anything was inspired, man is inherently flawed thus making the text flawed as well
  27. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    I dont disagree that it would certainly be a great thread, but you are making the assumption that a "god" had to create this because it must have a beginning, yet why does that not apply to this "god"?
    That's what the word sovereignty means. Who knows?! It is independent of this topic. The laws of physics only explain the universe, not what came before it or what is present in it's absence. You keep making an assumption that there should be a connection, why?
  28. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    that is a statement based on faith not based on factual evidence.

    lets move forward a few thousand years after the creation of the OT, take a couple of truly "inspired" men and leave them alone in conditions where they feel they are persecuted and could in fact not be of the right mind, and give them a pen and paper, they might also write some interesting things. Also, the modern thoought regarding them would be to send them to bellvue (NYC mental institution)

    My point being, that even if (big if) anything was inspired, man is inherently flawed thus making the text flawed as well
    Have you ever even read the Bible? This argument can just end now if not.
  29. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    That's what the word sovereignty means. Who knows?! It is independent of this topic. The laws of physics only explain the universe, not what came before it or what is present in it's absence. You keep making an assumption that there should be a connection, why?

    I think the issue here is that we are both making assumptions. At the end of the day neither of us know an answer...sadly


    However, rereading your first post, it is filled with faith based assumptions which also make it inherently flawed.

    I am not saying there is no god (my belief system is nontheistic in nature), but the evidence does not support the existence of a supreme being
  30. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Have you ever even read the Bible? This argument can just end now if not.
    Would you like a list of texts I have read? I have a masters degree in religious studies and have taught religion for many years.

    So to answer the question I have read the OT, NT, Qu'ran, Vedas, Tao, Dhamapada and many others. I hope this helps
  31. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    I think the issue here is that we are both making assumptions. At the end of the day neither of us know an answer...sadly


    However, rereading your first post, it is filled with faith based assumptions which also make it inherently flawed.

    I am not saying there is no god (my belief system is nontheistic in nature), but the evidence does not support the existence of a supreme being
    Perhaps you just can't understand the science or the implications of it. Maybe your current views restrain you from even considering it? Or maybe I just don't communicate it well, but I gave LOTS of support that you can not seriously dismiss with a sentence or two, sorry.
  32. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Perhaps you just can't understand the science or the implications of it. Maybe your current views restrain you from even considering it? Or maybe I just don't communicate it well, but I gave LOTS of support that you can not seriously dismiss with a sentence or two, sorry.

    Opinions vary, however in the first post and from what I have read of the thread the evidence is not convincing in the least. In fact, it leaves holes available as I mentioned previously.

    Also, in reference to your comment about me being restrained, have you applied that theory to your own views and stand point? Just curious
  33. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    Would you like a list of texts I have read? I have a masters degree in religious studies and have taught religion for many years.

    So to answer the question I have read the OT, NT, Qu'ran, Vedas, Tao, Dhamapada and many others. I hope this helps
    Then please, be specific in your objections. Your arguments are vague.
  34. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Then please, be specific in your objections. Your arguments are vague.
    not vague at all. Based on the 1st post of this thread, in the argument of the "creator and the finite universe" it is wholly based on assumptions. The mention of mathematics is fine, but no proof or statistical information is given. All in all, there is no proof, just faith
  35. Diamond Member
    Jayhawkk's Avatar
    Stats
    5'8"  230 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Age
    39
    Posts
    12,790
    Rep Power
    11681
    Level
    67
    Lv. Percent
    47.73%
    Achievements Activity AuthorityActivity ProPosting ProPosting AuthorityPosting Veteran

    I believe in God but I do not believe the bible to be the word of God because of the heavy influence of Man and their inherant ability to **** up anything they touch.
  36. Elite Member
    DR.D's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  228 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    6,779
    Rep Power
    307854
    Level
    56
    Lv. Percent
    45.31%
    Achievements Activity ProPosting ProPosting Authority

    Quote Originally Posted by MrTotality View Post
    Opinions vary, however in the first post and from what I have read of the thread the evidence is not convincing in the least. In fact, it leaves holes available as I mentioned previously.

    Also, in reference to your comment about me being restrained, have you applied that theory to your own views and stand point? Just curious
    Yes, I have applied it to myself. If you had read my first post thoroughly, you would have seen that I had no Christian or religious background of any kind to bias me, and in fact was a serious agnostic! I though God may exist, but it was absurd to think he would concern himself with the petty affairs of mankind. My whole world had to change literally and I had to rethink everything. So I understand where you're coming from if that's the case for you. I was there myself, and it was tough.

    As for holes, please be more specific as to your actually objections please.
  37. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawkk View Post
    I believe in God but I do not believe the bible to be the word of God because of the heavy influence of Man and their inherant ability to **** up anything they touch.
    well said
  38. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    Quote Originally Posted by DR.D View Post
    Yes, I have applied it to myself. If you had read my first post thoroughly, you would have seen that I had no Christian or religious background of any kind to bias me, and in fact was a serious agnostic! I though God may exist, but it was absurd to think he would concern himself with the petty affairs of mankind. My whole world had to change literally and I have to rethink everything. So I understand where you're coming from if that's the case for you. I was there myself, and it was tough.

    As for holes, please be more specific as to your actually objections please.
    First, I am glad to hear of your conversion as if it gives you answers I am all for it. However please dont tell me that 1 book led you there, as that is very disconcerting.

    Additionally, I am begining to think you arent reading my posts. I stated a specific objection yet you ignore it and are asking for more. Hmmmmmm........
  39. Banned
    MrTotality's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    343
    Rep Power
    0
    Level
    15
    Lv. Percent
    31.17%

    I must run now, but will check back to see the progress of the debate. Bye bye for now
  40. New Member
    EESCHMan's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  205 lbs.
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    318
    Rep Power
    293
    Level
    14
    Lv. Percent
    86.33%

    God already answers this question in the Bible, he has always existed, even before time.
    This is so conveinient.

    So how do you know Allah doesn't exist? More people believe in what the Koran says...
  

  
 

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 24
    Last Post: 11-26-2010, 09:52 PM
  2. Replies: 22
    Last Post: 11-07-2010, 06:21 PM
  3. Does Glutamine inhibit the production of NO2?
    By ABA4life in forum Supplements
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-19-2007, 12:21 PM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 07-03-2007, 09:00 PM
  5. Debate on the existance of Global Warming
    By kwyckemynd00 in forum Politics
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 09-06-2005, 07:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in