anyone own or even see a e85 eth. car?

[ralph4u2c]

been seeing alot of commercials and ads. for e-85 ethanol vehicles, mostly from GM. they say they have over 1.5 million sold and had them since 2001 but i have yet to see one on the road or an e-85 Eth. pump at the local gas station.

my brother said he saw one pump out in cali., which would be the first place i would think they would have them but anyone own one, how do the run and how much do the ethanol cost vs gas?

 

[hpower]

I don't have all the numbers in front of me right now, but remember something about ethanol. The octane is lower, so your mpg is much lower. From what I remember, e-85 (which is 85% ethanol, 15% gas for those who don' t know) needs to be around $1.609 per gallon to be even keel with gas at about $2.299 per gallon. The only other problem with that is even if the prices are at those levels, you have to stop for gas almost twice as often.

To summarize, E-85 is great for the environment, but really not feasible at this time for most consumers.

 

[revodrew]

I don't have all the numbers in front of me right now, but remember something about ethanol. The octane is lower, so your mpg is much lower. From what I remember, e-85 (which is 85% ethanol, 15% gas for those who don' t know) needs to be around $1.609 per gallon to be even keel with gas at about $2.299 per gallon. The only other problem with that is even if the prices are at those levels, you have to stop for gas almost twice as often.

To summarize, E-85 is great for the environment, but really not feasible at this time for most consumers.

Thats funny you know all this about gas, and have the BP symbol in your avator!!:head:

 

[hpower]

You recognize the BP helios, eh?

 

[CROWLER]

LOL I was thinking the same thing about the BP logo.

BTW anyone see that new car that runs on oil recovered from fast food restaurants. I don't know much about it but I have heard it is a real pain because you have to go back to the same place to fill up.

OK another BTW. I read about this and saw it on the news. If you do a search you can probably find out about it.

They say any diesel car from (I think) pre 1986 can run on the oil from fast food restaurants. You first filter it then pour it in the gas tank. You can also retrofit any diesel car to do the same for about $800. They say you get alot of clogged filters on the car but hey for free fuel I guess it is worth it.


CROWLER

 

[bioman]

Google for sites called "grease cars". One can get 5 gallons of the vegteble shortening at Costco for a reasonable price if a restaruant can't be had. Generally, you buddy up to the manager of your local Micky d's or whatever and they set aside the oil for you.

The E85 is frought with problems. GM and the huge agribusinesses all lobbied congress to get this stuff subsidized. It is impossible to get the E85 gas to market with heavy subsidization and it takes afair amount of energy to produce so the net savings are far less than advertised.

It IS a decent start and we need to look in these directions for alternative energy support but GM is being intellectually dishonest when they market the E85 cars as some environment saving alternative.

"If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States."

Turning the country into a giant cornfield is not exactly a very environmentally friendly thing to do.

 

[Brent]

North Dakota governor is pushing it pretty hard. There are billboards and cars driving around with the E85 logo and the governors face on it.

 

[CROWLER]

Google for sites called "grease cars". One can get 5 gallons of the vegteble shortening at Costco for a reasonable price if a restaruant can't be had. Generally, you buddy up to the manager of your local Micky d's or whatever and they set aside the oil for you.

The E85 is frought with problems. GM and the huge agribusinesses all lobbied congress to get this stuff subsidized. It is impossible to get the E85 gas to market with heavy subsidization and it takes afair amount of energy to produce so the net savings are far less than advertised.

It IS a decent start and we need to look in these directions for alternative energy support but GM is being intellectually dishonest when they market the E85 cars as some environment saving alternative.

"If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States."

Turning the country into a giant cornfield is not exactly a very environmentally friendly thing to do.

Great info. Never thought of just buying the oil new.

Also 97% of the US in corn. You never hear about this stuff when a company like GM is touting how great their so called eco product is.

CROWLER

 

[custom]

I don't have all the numbers in front of me right now, but remember something about ethanol. The octane is lower, so your mpg is much lower. From what I remember, e-85 (which is 85% ethanol, 15% gas for those who don' t know) needs to be around $1.609 per gallon to be even keel with gas at about $2.299 per gallon. The only other problem with that is even if the prices are at those levels, you have to stop for gas almost twice as often.

To summarize, E-85 is great for the environment, but really not feasible at this time for most consumers.

Not exactly true. Brazil has been on ethanol for about 10 yars and their cars are ofetn more fule efficient than the gasoline counterparts.

The oil companies will also tell you it takes more energy to extract the ethanol than what is contained in the ethanol. Again not true. Using sugar, like Brazil, ethanol is incredibly profitable.

I wonder why the oil companies do not want this coming about....hmm.

 

[bioman]

E85 does in fact take more energy to start the production process, but after that it takes far less..the big oil is taking a fact out of context in this instance.

The Brazillian example is a good one, however what you don't hear of is the short term economic upheaval when they wer trying to shift over to this fuel. People got stuck with gas cars that nobody wanted and it represented a loss for many(this was even more evident in Venezuela and their system pretty much failed). It did all pan out in the end but shifting technologies rapidly is often a painful transition.

 

[natedogg]

They say any diesel car from (I think) pre 1986 can run on the oil from fast food restaurants. You first filter it then pour it in the gas tank. You can also retrofit any diesel car to do the same for about $800. They say you get alot of clogged filters on the car but hey for free fuel I guess it is worth it.


CROWLER

Sweet. Can the grease from your oily skin and hair power one of these vehicles? If so, I'm sure you would have enough fuel for 10 vehicles. Greasy bastage.:lol:

 

[ironviking]

I don't have all the numbers in front of me right now, but remember something about ethanol. The octane is lower, so your mpg is much lower. From what I remember, e-85 (which is 85% ethanol, 15% gas for those who don' t know) needs to be around $1.609 per gallon to be even keel with gas at about $2.299 per gallon. The only other problem with that is even if the prices are at those levels, you have to stop for gas almost twice as often.

To summarize, E-85 is great for the environment, but really not feasible at this time for most consumers.

Not sure where you got this from but E85 is actually a higher octane maybe its boosted here in NA I dont know but its been rated as a performance fuel. The fuel efficiency is a little less but it burns a lot cleaner and the ethanol is water soluble so if you dump it it wont pollute the ground as much. Its at quite a few places in Denver for about 2.15 per gallon right now. And if you cant find it E85 cars will run on straight gasoline as well.

 

[hpower]

Not sure where you got this from but E85 is actually a higher octane maybe its boosted here in NA I dont know but its been rated as a performance fuel. The fuel efficiency is a little less but it burns a lot cleaner and the ethanol is water soluble so if you dump it it wont pollute the ground as much. Its at quite a few places in Denver for about 2.15 per gallon right now. And if you cant find it E85 cars will run on straight gasoline as well.

Yes, I agree with you that ethanol is a higher octane. It is pure alcohol (in fact, you can drink it, pure alcohol, not e85). But, E85 only has 72% as much energy as normal gasoline
(see http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2006-02-14-e85-usat_x.htm)

I also agree with you on it being cleaner and better for the environment. But the fact is that consumers will not use it even if it is on an even keel. Just being better for the environment is not enough to get a lot of consumers to switch. Price of E85 must be 72% of the price of normal gas to be the same, but again, you have to stop for gas a lot more, something not a lot of people want to do.

It probably won't change for years to come. There are 2 or 3 ethanol plants scheduled to open, but they are 2-3 years out. So, supply is low, that is why price is high. There are not many refineries, and a ton of supply is being sucked up by gas refiners, who use it as a replacement for MTBE.

The only way, at least for the next 2-3 years E85 will work is if the government steps in and subsidizes it. Note I am not arguing against E85, just stating the facts on why it is not feasible right now (from a retailers perspective).

 

[hpower]

Not exactly true. Brazil has been on ethanol for about 10 yars and their cars are ofetn more fule efficient than the gasoline counterparts.

The oil companies will also tell you it takes more energy to extract the ethanol than what is contained in the ethanol. Again not true. Using sugar, like Brazil, ethanol is incredibly profitable.

I wonder why the oil companies do not want this coming about....hmm.

I can't comment much on Brazil, but at least here in the states, E85 is not as fuel efficient as gas.

I guess I don't see the oil companies fighting to keep this at bay. Just general market right now has supply very limited, and when all things are factored in (refining, supply and transportation of raw and finished goods), it does not work.

 

[ironviking]

thats the first time I've seen the 72% efficiency number
but I really dont think E85 is meant to fully replace gasoline or oil imports just to alleviate our dependency on them...and like you said once production comes up we'll see a price drop
E85 is definitely not the end all answer but its atleast a start in a alternative fuel direction

 

[hpower]

I agree. Good point.

 

[Raceraptor]

I hope something can be done...heck I remember when you could buy a gallon of REGULAR leaded gas for 0.85....
I drive a Powerstroke right now, and am really considering converting it to run on waste oil...
I feel that we(Americans) have had the know how, to reduce our need for forign oil for some time now...I wish we would use it.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of those tree huggers...I would just like to keep as much as we can in house...

 

[jmh80]

One aspect of EtOH that you aren't taking into account is that you just can't go and store it at a refinery (to blend to mogas) with mogas components. You have to build separate tanks - more capital.

Something else that we'll see come May 1st is that with the EPA mandated phase-out of MTBE and other ethers for octane upgrade/cleaner burning there will be a reduction in motor gasoline make.
The feed that goes into making these ethers are typically short chain hydrocarbons that can't be blended into mogas pools on their own. Their vapor pressures are too high to meet the EPA's specifications.

So, while EtOH might be priced lower in some areas of the US (mid-west), that neglects the capital needed to deal with it (tanks) and with the glut of excess hydrocarbons that were made into ethers.