got my first handgun today

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  1. lurking AM since -04
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    basically, you just need a clean record. every state is different. in VA, if you want to buy a rifle or shotgun, you don't need either, just walk in give them the cash and you're out. handguns are a little different, but still relatively easy to obtain, legally that is.
    Now that's crazy man! Over here, besides from the obvious clean record, you first need to join a shooting association (not as easy as it sounds). Then you'll start a training scheme. For the first six months you're only allowed to use the .22 calibre guns. After six months you have the possibility to apply for your license and to use 9 mm, .44 and so on. If you get your license, you have to be an active member of your club, volunteer on competitions etc. If you quit your membership you'll lose your license and have to cork your gun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheViking
    Now that's crazy man! Over here, besides from the obvious clean record, you first need to join a shooting association (not as easy as it sounds). Then you'll start a training scheme. For the first six months you're only allowed to use the .22 calibre guns. After six months you have the possibility to apply for your license and to use 9 mm, .44 and so on. If you get your license, you have to be an active member of your club, volunteer on competitions etc. If you quit your membership you'll lose your license and have to cork your gun.
    just outta curiosity, what is the gun crime rate there?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    just outta curiosity, what is the gun crime rate there?
    If you're interested you can find all reported offences of 2004 here (hope it works).
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    4 Gun lovers Videos. Not pistols thou. All automatic.
    http://www.subgunvideos.com/videos/R...vers%20Videos/
    And my fav video Helocopter+minigun=
    http://www.big-boys.com/articles/iraqfootage.html
    And remember there only 1 tracer every 5 rnds typically.
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    Here's a nice, ongoing list of American citizens who don't require a firearm:

    Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog

    BTW, I carry an XD 9mm with 17 rounds of Federal EFMJ. 16 in the (hew hi-cap) mag, 1 in the chamber.
  6. SJA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buc4Life04
    4 Gun lovers Videos. Not pistols thou. All automatic.
    http://www.subgunvideos.com/videos/R...vers%20Videos/
    And my fav video Helocopter+minigun=
    http://www.big-boys.com/articles/iraqfootage.html
    And remember there only 1 tracer every 5 rnds typically.
    How about this little beauty. 1 million rounds per minute.

    http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2676608?htv=12

    see ya
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    I'll chime in here as another Canuck so take everything with a grain of salt:

    On an absolute scale I'm for maximum personal freedoms. If you want to do narcotics you should be able to go to the pharmacy, read the disclaimer, sign the waiver, and go pickle yourself. If you want to mount a mini gun on your SUV then so be it. I even think that if you have the coin you should be able to park an M1-A in your driveway.

    However as usually happens some irresponsible minority creates major problems for the majority so we enact laws and (on paper) enforce them. Handguns are anti-personnel weapons, plain and simple. They are designed to injure and kill people. However that is against the law yet those guns are legally available. Seems like if you do not feel safe in your community without posessing a handgun then everyone should be chipping in the purchase price to bolster law enforcement or to launch a civil suit against the government for failing to create a safe environment.

    So in the case of gun control, though against my fundamental views on freedoms, Im in favor of prohibition of all anti-personnel firearms while maintaining legality of hunting firearms.

    That said, you guys have some pretty sweet hardware
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    I'm a gun owner and a manufacturer of goodies for Uncle Sam so I get a little more liberty to play with new toys. I don't have an issue with the background checks, I do have an issue with the waiting periods. With all of todays technology you can't convince me that they can't do instant checks for everything? Having said that here's a pic of 2 politically incorrect weapons of mine and my wife's. I don't have any pics of my handguns, but I own a Glock 21, Sig 220 in .45 ACP and the wife shoots a S&W 686 4" barrel in competition.

    ROB
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitrox
    However as usually happens some irresponsible minority creates major problems for the majority so we enact laws and (on paper) enforce them.
    Yup, and that's the problem. The laws target everyone, not the target population who, if the reason we had to pass laws to begin with is because they were killing and robbing people, aren't going to give much of a **** about some gun law. The basic premise behind gun laws is that someone who is willing to point a gun at another human being and out of malice or pure vapidity say, "Give me your money, or I'll kill you," or "Spread your legs, or I'll kill you," or "I'm just going to kill you for the fun of it," is going to become a CPA if the government says they can't have a gun. That is so divorced from reality and rationality as to be frightening.

    Just as it doesn't make sense to lock up all marijuana, steroid, cocaine or other drug users just because some of them are making life difficult for others, it makes no sense to pass laws against all gun owners when only some of them are the problem. The minority of them are the problem in fact, which means you will destroy the rights of the majority, fine them, put them in prison, take away their right to arms, destroy their lives with criminal convictions, etc., all to hit a minority of people who will break these laws with impunity.

    Someone who kills another human being out of malice or recklessness with a gun is already a criminal. There's no need for more laws against them. All the laws do is create a new class of criminals, ones who before after the laws were passed were never a threat to anyone else whatsoever. But, because their gun doesn't have the proper trigger lock, or because their gun looks threatening, or because of the magazine size, or because of the calibur, or because of the bullet type, or because of how it was sold, or because of how it was bought, or because they got a parking ticket when they were 15 years old and now can't own one but do, etc., they all of a sudden become criminals. And the government has to spread its finite resources out further to enforce these laws against this new bread of horribly dangerous criminals, reallocating law enforcement dollars that would of course be wasted if spent going after murderers, rapists, molesters, robbers, etc.

    Handguns are anti-personnel weapons, plain and simple. They are designed to injure and kill people. However that is against the law yet those guns are legally available.
    It's not against the law to kill. It's against the law to kill out of malice, or in the course of committing another crime, etc. It's not against the law to kill to protect your own life, your safety and the safety of others, nor should it be.

    Seems like if you do not feel safe in your community without posessing a handgun then everyone should be chipping in the purchase price to bolster law enforcement or to launch a civil suit against the government for failing to create a safe environment.
    Sure, leave it to the government. They do so well at it.

    Do you wear a seatbelt? Are you a good driver? I know I am, I'm a very good driver. Reasonable, safe, unstressed, long outgrew the need to prove anything behind the wheel. However, I wear my seatbelt, because no matter how good and safe a driver I might be and how many steps I may have taken to lower my profile as someone who is going to be involved in a life threatening accident, it is not always my choice whether or not some idiot or criminal decides to come into my life and make it ever so much more joyful. Get it?

    Keeping a handgun has nothing to do with whether or not your neighborhood is safe. Murders, robberies and rapes occur in the best of neighborhoods. Nor can the government do anything to stop this unless it goes all out to destroy as many of those personal freedoms you say you support. The role of the government is very often limited to showing up after a crime has been committed and catching those responsible for it. And I'd much rather call the police to come pick up the body, dead or alive, of a guy I shot than have them come pick up my dead body, or the body of one of my family or friends after they'd been robbed, raped or murdered, however unlikely that was to happen. In the safest of places life can be forever altered and/or cut brutally short by one thoughtless or criminal act, and I will do everything I can (note, not everything I can force the government to do for me) to see that such a thing doesn't happen to someone I love. And that means arming myself at least as well as I think the average criminal can arm himself.

    I know women who have been raped. I've known people who were shot, stabbed and robbed. And I live in one of the safest areas of Long Island, New York, one of the safest whitebread low crime areas on the planet. I'd even rather the government come after me and lock me up for shooting someone as long as I could spare someone in my family or one of my friends that horror of personal violation. It would be worth it. And once more it has nothing to do with how likely it is to happen. I don't think it's terribly likely I'm going to get hit by a drunk considering when, where and how I drive. I still watch other cars on the road for signs they might not be all there though, because I'd rather defend myself, and my loved ones, than be the one person in a million or whatever the stats are who is victimized and hurt by someone else's malice or stupidity.

    My favorite article on the subject...

    Preface:


    I have obtained reprint permission for the Internet for Jeffrey Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards". It may be reproduced freely, including forwarding copies to politicians, provided that it is not distributed for profit and subscription information is included.

    I especially encourage you to copy and pass on this strong statement about firearms ownership to friends, colleagues, undecideds, and other firearms rights supporters. Your grassroots pamphleteering can counter the propaganda blitz now going on by introducing some reason to the debate. This essay is one of our best weapons.

    To get plaintext: ftp ftp.rkba.org, get /public_html/comment/cowards.txt The WWW URL is: http://rkba.org/comment/cowards.txt

    Jeff Chan



    "A Nation of Cowards" was published in the Fall, '93 issue of The Public Interest, a quarterly journal of opinion published by National Affairs, Inc.

    Single copies of The Public Interest are available for $6. Annual subscription rate is $21 ($24 US, for Canadian and foreign subscriptions). Single copies of this or other issues, and subscriptions, can be obtained from:

    • The Public Interest 1112 16th St., N.W., Suite 140 Washington, DC 20036

      (C) 1993 by The Public Interest.






    A NATION OF COWARDS



    Jeffrey R. Snyder





    OUR SOCIETY has reached a pinnacle of self-expression and respect for individuality rare or unmatched in history. Our entire popular culture -- from fashion magazines to the cinema -- positively screams the matchless worth of the individual, and glories in eccentricity, nonconformity, independent judgment, and self-determination. This enthusiasm is reflected in the prevalent notion that helping someone entails increasing that person's "self-esteem"; that if a person properly values himself, he will naturally be a happy, productive, and, in some inexplicable fashion, responsible member of society.

    And yet, while people are encouraged to revel in their individuality and incalculable self-worth, the media and the law enforcement establishment continually advise us that, when confronted with the threat of lethal violence, we should not resist, but simply give the attacker what he wants. If the crime under consideration is rape, there is some notable waffling on this point, and the discussion quickly moves to how the woman can change her behavior to minimize the risk of rape, and the various ridiculous, non-lethal weapons she may acceptably carry, such as whistles, keys, mace or, that weapon which really sends shivers down a rapist's spine, the portable cellular phone.

    Now how can this be? How can a person who values himself so highly calmly accept the indignity of a criminal assault? How can one who believes that the essence of his dignity lies in his self-determination passively accept the forcible deprivation of that self-determination? How can he, quietly, with great dignity and poise, simply hand over the goods?

    The assumption, of course, is that there is no inconsistency. The advice not to resist a criminal assault and simply hand over the goods is founded on the notion that one's life is of incalculable value, and that no amount of property is worth it. Put aside, for a moment, the outrageousness of the suggestion that a criminal who proffers lethal violence should be treated as if he has instituted a new social contract: "I will not hurt or kill you if you give me what I want." For years, feminists have labored to educate people that rape is not about sex, but about domination, degradation, and control. Evidently, someone needs to inform the law enforcement establishment and the media that kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, and assault are not about property.

    Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist.

    The Gift of Life



    Although difficult for modern man to fathom, it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, that to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community. A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:

    He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.

    "Cowardice" and "self-respect" have largely disappeared from public discourse. In their place we are offered "self-esteem" as the bellwether of success and a proxy for dignity. "Self-respect" implies that one recognizes standards, and judges oneself worthy by the degree to which one lives up to them. "Self-esteem" simply means that one feels good about oneself. "Dignity" used to refer to the self-mastery and fortitude with which a person conducted himself in the face of life's vicissitudes and the boorish behavior of others. Now, judging by campus speech codes, dignity requires that we never encounter a discouraging word and that others be coerced into acting respectfully, evidently on the assumption that we are powerless to prevent our degradation if exposed to the demeaning behavior of others. These are signposts proclaiming the insubstantiality of our character, the hollowness of our souls.

    It is impossible to address the problem of rampant crime without talking about the moral responsibility of the intended victim. Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens. Crime is not rampant because we do not have enough prisons, because judges and prosecutors are too soft, because the police are hamstrung with absurd technicalities. The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers.

    Do You Feel Lucky?



    In 1991, when then-Attorney General Richard Thornburgh released the FBI's annual crime statistics, he noted that it is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves. The police, however, are not personal bodyguards. Rather, they act as a general deterrent to crime, both by their presence and by apprehending criminals after the fact. As numerous courts have held, they have no legal obligation to protect anyone in particular. You cannot sue them for failing to prevent you from being the victim of a crime.

    Insofar as the police deter by their presence, they are very, very good. Criminals take great pains not to commit a crime in front of them. Unfortunately, the corollary is that you can pretty much bet your life (and you are) that they won't be there at the moment you actually need them.

    Should you ever be the victim of an assault, a robbery, or a rape, you will find it very difficult to call the police while the act is in progress, even if you are carrying a portable cellular phone. Nevertheless, you might be interested to know how long it takes them to show up. Department of Justice statistics for 1991 show that, for all crimes of violence, only 28 percent of calls are responded to within five minutes. The idea that protection is a service people can call to have delivered and expect to receive in a timely fashion is often mocked by gun owners, who love to recite the challenge, "Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first."

    Many people deal with the problem of crime by convincing themselves that they live, work, and travel only in special "crime-free" zones. Invariably, they react with shock and hurt surprise when they discover that criminals do not play by the rules and do not respect these imaginary boundaries. If, however, you understand that crime can occur anywhere at anytime, and if you understand that you can be maimed or mortally wounded in mere seconds, you may wish to consider whether you are willing to place the responsibility for safeguarding your life in the hands of others.

    Power And Responsibility



    Is your life worth protecting? If so, whose responsibility is it to protect it? If you believe that it is the police's, not only are you wrong -- since the courts universally rule that they have no legal obligation to do so -- but you face some difficult moral quandaries. How can you rightfully ask another human being to risk his life to protect yours, when you will assume no responsibility yourself? Because that is his job and we pay him to do it? Because your life is of incalculable value, but his is only worth the $30,000 salary we pay him? If you believe it reprehensible to possess the means and will to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault, how can you call upon another to do so for you?

    Do you believe that you are forbidden to protect yourself because the police are better qualified to protect you, because they know what they are doing but you're a rank amateur? Put aside that this is equivalent to believing that only concert pianists may play the piano and only professional athletes may play sports. What exactly are these special qualities possessed only by the police and beyond the rest of us mere mortals?

    One who values his life and takes seriously his responsibilities to his family and community will possess and cultivate the means of fighting back, and will retaliate when threatened with death or grievous injury to himself or a loved one. He will never be content to rely solely on others for his safety, or to think he has done all that is possible by being aware of his surroundings and taking measures of avoidance. Let's not mince words: He will be armed, will be trained in the use of his weapon, and will defend himself when faced with lethal violence.

    Fortunately, there is a weapon for preserving life and liberty that can be wielded effectively by almost anyone -- the handgun. Small and light enough to be carried habitually, lethal, but unlike the knife or sword, not demanding great skill or strength, it truly is the "great equalizer." Requiring only hand-eye coordination and a modicum of ability to remain cool under pressure, it can be used effectively by the old and the weak against the young and the strong, by the one against the many.

    The handgun is the only weapon that would give a lone female jogger a chance of prevailing against a gang of thugs intent on rape, a teacher a chance of protecting children at recess from a madman intent on massacring them, a family of tourists waiting at a mid-town subway station the means to protect themselves from a gang of teens armed with razors and knives.

    But since we live in a society that by and large outlaws the carrying of arms, we are brought into the fray of the Great American Gun War. Gun control is one of the most prominent battlegrounds in our current culture wars. Yet it is unique in the half-heartedness with which our conservative leaders and pundits -- our "conservative elite" -- do battle, and have conceded the moral high ground to liberal gun control proponents. It is not a topic often written about, or written about with any great fervor, by William F. Buckley or Patrick Buchanan. As drug czar, William Bennett advised President Bush to ban "assault weapons." George Will is on record as recommending the repeal of the Second Amendment, and Jack Kemp is on record as favoring a ban on the possession of semiautomatic "assault weapons." The battle for gun rights is one fought predominantly by the common man. The beliefs of both our liberal and conservative elites are in fact abetting the criminal rampage through our society.

    Selling Crime Prevention



    By any rational measure, nearly all gun control proposals are hokum. The Brady Bill, for example, would not have prevented John Hinckley from obtaining a gun to shoot President Reagan; Hinckley purchased his weapon five months before the attack, and his medical records could not have served as a basis to deny his purchase of a gun, since medical records are not public documents filed with the police. Similarly, California's waiting period and background check did not stop Patrick Purdy from purchasing the "assault rifle" and handguns he used to massacre children during recess in a Stockton schoolyard; the felony conviction that would have provided the basis for stopping the sales did not exist, because Mr. Purdy's previous weapons violations were plea-bargained down from felonies to misdemeanors.

    In the mid-sixties there was a public service advertising campaign targeted at car owners about the prevention of car theft. The purpose of the ad was to urge car owners not to leave their keys in their cars. The message was, "Don't help a good boy go bad." The implication was that, by leaving his keys in his car, the normal, law-abiding car owner was contributing to the delinquency of minors who, if they just weren't tempted beyond their limits, would be "good." Now, in those days people still had a fair sense of just who was responsible for whose behavior. The ad succeeded in enraging a goodly portion of the populace, and was soon dropped.

    Nearly all of the gun control measures offered by Handgun Control, Inc. (HCI) and its ilk embody the same philosophy. They are founded on the belief that America's law-abiding gun owners are the source of the problem. With their unholy desire for firearms, they are creating a society awash in a sea of guns, thereby helping good boys go bad, and helping bad boys be badder. This laying of moral blame for violent crime at the feet of the law-abiding, and the implicit absolution of violent criminals for their misdeeds, naturally infuriates honest gun owners.

    The files of HCI and other gun control organizations are filled with proposals to limit the availability of semiautomatic and other firearms to law-abiding citizens, and barren of proposals for apprehending and punishing violent criminals. It is ludicrous to expect that the proposals of HCI, or any gun control laws, will significantly curb crime. According to Department of Justice and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) statistics, fully 90 percent of violent crimes are committed without a handgun, and 93 percent of the guns obtained by violent criminals are not obtained through the lawful purchase and sale transactions that are the object of most gun control legislation. Furthermore, the number of violent criminals is minute in comparison to the number of firearms in America -- estimated by the ATF at about 200 million, approximately one-third of which are handguns. With so abundant a supply, there will always be enough guns available for those who wish to use them for nefarious ends, no matter how complete the legal prohibitions against them, or how draconian the punishment for their acquisition or use. No, the gun control proposals of HCI and other organizations are not seriously intended as crime control. Something else is at work here.

    The Tyranny of the Elite



    Gun control is a moral crusade against a benighted, barbaric citizenry. This is demonstrated not only by the ineffectualness of gun control in preventing crime, and by the fact that it focuses on restricting the behavior of the law-abiding rather than apprehending and punishing the guilty, but also by the execration that gun control proponents heap on gun owners and their evil instrumentality, the NRA. Gun owners are routinely portrayed as uneducated, paranoid rednecks fascinated by and prone to violence, i.e., exactly the type of person who opposes the liberal agenda and whose moral and social "re-education" is the object of liberal social policies. Typical of such bigotry is New York Gov. Mario Cuomo's famous characterization of gun-owners as "hunters who drink beer, don't vote, and lie to their wives about where they were all weekend." Similar vituperation is rained upon the NRA, characterized by Sen. Edward Kennedy as the "pusher's best friend," lampooned in political cartoons as standing for the right of children to carry firearms to school and, in general, portrayed as standing for an individual's God-given right to blow people away at will.

    The stereotype is, of course, false. As criminologist and constitutional lawyer Don B. Kates, Jr. and former HCI contributor Dr. Patricia Harris have pointed out, "[s]tudies consistently show that, on the average, gun owners are better educated and have more prestigious jobs than non-owners.... Later studies show that gun owners are less likely than non-owners to approve of police brutality, violence against dissenters, etc."

    Conservatives must understand that the antipathy many liberals have for gun owners arises in good measure from their statist utopianism. This habit of mind has nowhere been better explored than in The Republic. There, Plato argues that the perfectly just society is one in which an unarmed people exhibit virtue by minding their own business in the performance of their assigned functions, while the government of philosopher-kings, above the law and protected by armed guardians unquestioning in their loyalty to the state, engineers, implements, and fine-tunes the creation of that society, aided and abetted by myths that both hide and justify their totalitarian manipulation.

    The Unarmed Life



    When columnist Carl Rowan preaches gun control and uses a gun to defend his home, when Maryland Gov. William Donald Schaefer seeks legislation year after year to ban semiautomatic "assault weapons" whose only purpose, we are told, is to kill people, while he is at the same time escorted by state police armed with large-capacity 9mm semiautomatic pistols, it is not simple hypocrisy. It is the workings of that habit of mind possessed by all superior beings who have taken upon themselves the terrible burden of civilizing the masses and who understand, like our Congress, that laws are for other people.

    The liberal elite know that they are philosopher-kings. They know that the people simply cannot be trusted; that they are incapable of just and fair self-government; that left to their own devices, their society will be racist, sexist, homophobic, and inequitable -- and the liberal elite know how to fix things. They are going to help us live the good and just life, even if they have to lie to us and force us to do it. And they detest those who stand in their way.

    The private ownership of firearms is a rebuke to this utopian zeal. To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state. It is to reserve final judgment about whether the state is encroaching on freedom and liberty, to stand ready to defend that freedom with more than mere words, and to stand outside the state's totalitarian reach.

    The Florida Experience



    The elitist distrust of the people underlying the gun control movement is illustrated beautifully in HCI's campaign against a new concealed-carry law in Florida. Prior to 1987, the Florida law permitting the issuance of concealed-carry permits was administered at the county level. The law was vague, and, as a result, was subject to conflicting interpretation and political manipulation. Permits were issued principally to security personnel and the privileged few with political connections. Permits were valid only within the county of issuance.

    In 1987, however, Florida enacted a uniform concealed-carry law which mandates that county authorities issue a permit to anyone who satisfies certain objective criteria. The law requires that a permit be issued to any applicant who is a resident, at least twenty-one years of age, has no criminal record, no record of alcohol or drug abuse, no history of mental illness, and provides evidence of having satisfactorily completed a firearms safety course offered by the NRA or other competent instructor. The applicant must provide a set of fingerprints, after which the authorities make a background check. The permit must be issued or denied within ninety days, is valid throughout the state, and must be renewed every three years, which provides authorities a regular means of reevaluating whether the permit holder still qualifies.

    Passage of this legislation was vehemently opposed by HCI and the media. The law, they said, would lead to citizens shooting each other over everyday disputes involving fender benders, impolite behavior, and other slights to their dignity. Terms like "Florida, the Gunshine State" and "Dodge City East" were coined to suggest that the state, and those seeking passage of the law, were encouraging individuals to act as judge, jury, and executioner in a "Death Wish" society.

    No HCI campaign more clearly demonstrates the elitist beliefs underlying the campaign to eradicate gun ownership. Given the qualifications required of permit holders, HCI and the media can only believe that common, law-abiding citizens are seething cauldrons of homicidal rage, ready to kill to avenge any slight to their dignity, eager to seek out and summarily execute the lawless. Only lack of immediate access to a gun restrains them and prevents the blood from flowing in the streets. They are so mentally and morally deficient that they would mistake a permit to carry a weapon in self-defense as a state-sanctioned license to kill at will.

    Did the dire predictions come true? Despite the fact that Miami and Dade County have severe problems with the drug trade, the homicide rate fell in Florida following enactment of this law, as it did in Oregon following enactment of similar legislation there. There are, in addition, several documented cases of new permit holders successfully using their weapons to defend themselves. Information from the Florida Department of State shows that, from the beginning of the program in 1987 through June 1993, 160,823 permits have been issued, and only 530, or about 0.33 percent of the applicants, have been denied a permit for failure to satisfy the criteria, indicating that the law is benefitting those whom it was intended to benefit -- the law-abiding. Only 16 permits, less than 1/100th of 1 percent, have been revoked due to the post-issuance commission of a crime involving a firearm.

    The Florida legislation has been used as a model for legislation adopted by Oregon, Idaho, Montana, and Mississippi. There are, in addition, seven other states (Maine, North and South Dakota, Utah, Washington, West Virginia, and, with the exception of cities with a population in excess of 1 million, Pennsylvania) which provide that concealed-carry permits must be issued to law-abiding citizens who satisfy various objective criteria. Finally, no permit is required at all in Vermont. Altogether, then, there are thirteen states in which law-abiding citizens who wish to carry arms to defend themselves may do so. While no one appears to have compiled the statistics from all of these jurisdictions, there is certainly an ample data base for those seeking the truth about the trustworthiness of law-abiding citizens who carry firearms.

    Other evidence also suggests that armed citizens are very responsible in using guns to defend themselves. Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck, using surveys and other data, has determined that armed citizens defend their lives or property with firearms against criminals approximately 1 million times a year. In 98 percent of these instances, the citizen merely brandishes the weapon or fires a warning shot. Only in 2 percent of the cases do citizens actually shoot their assailants. In defending themselves with their firearms, armed citizens kill 2,000 to 3,000 criminals each year, three times the number killed by the police. A nationwide study by Kates, the constitutional lawyer and criminologist, found that only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, over five times as high.

    It is simply not possible to square the numbers above and the experience of Florida with the notions that honest, law-abiding gun owners are borderline psychopaths itching for an excuse to shoot someone, vigilantes eager to seek out and summarily execute the lawless, or incompetent fools incapable of determining when it is proper to use lethal force in defense of their lives. Nor upon reflection should these results seem surprising. Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation and great book-learning to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, "You're coming with me," her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error. There is little chance that she is going to shoot the wrong person. It is the police, because they are rarely at the scene of the crime when it occurs, who are more likely to find themselves in circumstances where guilt and innocence are not so clear-cut, and in which the probability for mistakes is higher.

    Arms and Liberty



    Classical republican philosophy has long recognized the critical relationship between personal liberty and the possession of arms by a people ready and willing to use them. Political theorists as dissimilar as Niccolo Machiavelli, Sir Thomas More, James Harrington, Algernon Sidney, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau all shared the view that the possession of arms is vital for resisting tyranny, and that to be disarmed by one's government is tantamount to being enslaved by it. The possession of arms by the people is the ultimate warrant that government governs only with the consent of the governed. As Kates has shown, the Second Amendment is as much a product of this political philosophy as it is of the American experience in the Revolutionary War. Yet our conservative elite has abandoned this aspect of republican theory. Although our conservative pundits recognize and embrace gun owners as allies in other arenas, their battle for gun rights is desultory. The problem here is not a statist utopianism, although goodness knows that liberals are not alone in the confidence they have in the state's ability to solve society's problems. Rather, the problem seems to lie in certain cultural traits shared by our conservative and liberal elites.

    One such trait is an abounding faith in the power of the word. The failure of our conservative elite to defend the Second Amendment stems in great measure from an overestimation of the power of the rights set forth in the First Amendment, and a general undervaluation of action. Implicit in calls for the repeal of the Second Amendment is the assumption that our First Amendment rights are sufficient to preserve our liberty. The belief is that liberty can be preserved as long as men freely speak their minds; that there is no tyranny or abuse that can survive being exposed in the press; and that the truth need only be disclosed for the culprits to be shamed. The people will act, and the truth shall set us, and keep us, free.

    History is not kind to this belief, tending rather to support the view of Hobbes, Machiavelli, and other republican theorists that only people willing and able to defend themselves can preserve their liberties. While it may be tempting and comforting to believe that the existence of mass electronic communication has forever altered the balance of power between the state and its subjects, the belief has certainly not been tested by time, and what little history there is in the age of mass communication is not especially encouraging. The camera, radio, and press are mere tools and, like guns, can be used for good or ill. Hitler, after all, was a masterful orator, used radio to very good effect, and is well known to have pioneered and exploited the propaganda opportunities afforded by film. And then, of course, there were the Brownshirts, who knew very well how to quell dissent among intellectuals.

    Polite Society



    In addition to being enamored of the power of words, our conservative elite shares with liberals the notion that an armed society is just not civilized or progressive, that massive gun ownership is a blot on our civilization. This association of personal disarmament with civilized behavior is one of the great unexamined beliefs of our time.

    Should you read English literature from the sixteenth through nineteenth centuries, you will discover numerous references to the fact that a gentleman, especially when out at night or traveling, armed himself with a sword or a pistol against the chance of encountering a highwayman or other such predator. This does not appear to have shocked the ladies accompanying him. True, for the most part there were no police in those days, but we have already addressed the notion that the presence of the police absolves people of the responsibility to look after their safety, and in any event the existence of the police cannot be said to have reduced crime to negligible levels.

    It is by no means obvious why it is "civilized" to permit oneself to fall easy prey to criminal violence, and to permit criminals to continue unobstructed in their evil ways. While it may be that a society in which crime is so rare that no one ever needs to carry a weapon is "civilized," a society that stigmatizes the carrying of weapons by the law-abiding -- because it distrusts its citizens more than it fears rapists, robbers, and murderers -- certainly cannot claim this distinction. Perhaps the notion that defending oneself with lethal force is not "civilized" arises from the view that violence is always wrong, or the view that each human being is of such intrinsic worth that it is wrong to kill anyone under any circumstances. The necessary implication of these propositions, however, is that life is not worth defending. Far from being "civilized," the beliefs that counterviolence and killing are always wrong are an invitation to the spread of barbarism. Such beliefs announce loudly and clearly that those who do not respect the lives and property of others will rule over those who do.

    In truth, one who believes it wrong to arm himself against criminal violence shows contempt of God's gift of life (or, in modern parlance, does not properly value himself), does not live up to his responsibilities to his family and community, and proclaims himself mentally and morally deficient, because he does not trust himself to behave responsibly. In truth, a state that deprives its law-abiding citizens of the means to effectively defend themselves is not civilized but barbarous, becoming an accomplice of murderers, rapists, and thugs and revealing its totalitarian nature by its tacit admission that the disorganized, random havoc created by criminals is far less a threat than are men and women who believe themselves free and independent, and act accordingly.

    While gun control proponents and other advocates of a kinder, gentler society incessantly decry our "armed society," in truth we do not live in an armed society. We live in a society in which violent criminals and agents of the state habitually carry weapons, and in which many law-abiding citizens own firearms but do not go about armed. Department of Justice statistics indicate that 87 percent of all violent crimes occur outside the home. Essentially, although tens of millions own firearms, we are an unarmed society.

    Take Back the Night



    Clearly the police and the courts are not providing a significant brake on criminal activity. While liberals call for more poverty, education, and drug treatment programs, conservatives take a more direct tack. George Will advocates a massive increase in the number of police and a shift toward "community-based policing." Meanwhile, the NRA and many conservative leaders call for laws that would require violent criminals serve at least 85 percent of their sentences and would place repeat offenders permanently behind bars.

    Our society suffers greatly from the beliefs that only official action is legitimate and that the state is the source of our earthly salvation. Both liberal and conservative prescriptions for violent crime suffer from the "not in my job description" school of thought regarding the responsibilities of the law-abiding citizen, and from an overestimation of the ability of the state to provide society's moral moorings. As long as law-abiding citizens assume no personal responsibility for combatting crime, liberal and conservative programs will fail to contain it.

    Judging by the numerous articles about concealed-carry in gun magazines, the growing number of products advertised for such purpose, and the increase in the number of concealed-carry applications in states with mandatory-issuance laws, more and more people, including growing numbers of women, are carrying firearms for self-defense. Since there are still many states in which the issuance of permits is discretionary and in which law enforcement officials routinely deny applications, many people have been put to the hard choice between protecting their lives or respecting the law. Some of these people have learned the hard way, by being the victim of a crime, or by seeing a friend or loved one raped, robbed, or murdered, that violent crime can happen to anyone, anywhere at anytime, and that crime is not about sex or property but life, liberty, and dignity.

    The laws proscribing concealed-carry of firearms by honest, law-abiding citizens breed nothing but disrespect for the law. As the Founding Fathers knew well, a government that does not trust its honest, law-abiding, taxpaying citizens with the means of self-defense is not itself worthy of trust. Laws disarming honest citizens proclaim that the government is the master, not the servant, of the people. A federal law along the lines of the Florida statute -- overriding all contradictory state and local laws and acknowledging that the carrying of firearms by law-abiding citizens is a privilege and immunity of citizenship -- is needed to correct the outrageous conduct of state and local officials operating under discretionary licensing systems.

    What we certainly do not need is more gun control. Those who call for the repeal of the Second Amendment so that we can really begin controlling firearms betray a serious misunderstanding of the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights does not grant rights to the people, such that its repeal would legitimately confer upon government the powers otherwise proscribed. The Bill of Rights is the list of the fundamental, inalienable rights, endowed in man by his Creator, that define what it means to be a free and independent people, the rights which must exist to ensure that government governs only with the consent of the people.

    At one time this was even understood by the Supreme Court. In United States v. Cruikshank (1876), the first case in which the Court had an opportunity to interpret the Second Amendment, it stated that the right confirmed by the Second Amendment "is not a right granted by the constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence." The repeal of the Second Amendment would no more render the outlawing of firearms legitimate than the repeal of the due process clause of the Fifth Amendment would authorize the government to imprison and kill people at will. A government that abrogates any of the Bill of Rights, with or without majoritarian approval, forever acts illegitimately, becomes tyrannical, and loses the moral right to govern. This is the uncompromising understanding reflected in the warning that America's gun owners will not go gently into that good, utopian night: "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead hands." While liberals take this statement as evidence of the retrograde, violent nature of gun owners, we gun owners hope that liberals hold equally strong sentiments about their printing presses, word processors, and television cameras. The republic depends upon fervent devotion to all our fundamental rights.
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    agreed, excellent post CDB.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moyer
    The gun problem certainly isn't anything any one or two of us is going to solve. If it were that easy, there wouldn't be a problem.

    I'll be the first to admit, there are some idiots in this country that I really wish didn't have the right to own guns. But I don't think that my rights should be taken away because of their mistakes. Besides, even if we ban guns, there will still be some idiots that have them.
    Of course there are some people that "shouldn't" have the right...like, IMHO some people "shouldn't" have the right to procreate!

    But, the problem is....those people who "shouldn't" have the right are usually criminals....and uh...criminals don't obey the law....so, uh....when we say "guns are illegal" they dont care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GREENFEATHER
    I don't have an issue with the background checks, I do have an issue with the waiting periods. With all of todays technology you can't convince me that they can't do instant checks for everything?
    Actually they CAN do instant checks - but thats not the point.

    The reason (in most states) that they make you wait a couple of days is so you can "cool down". For example, if you come home and find some dude balls deep in your wife, you can't go to the local sports store, pick up a hand cannon, and go back to blast them. They make you wait a couple of days to really think it through

    BP
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigP0ppa3
    Actually they CAN do instant checks - but thats not the point.

    The reason (in most states) that they make you wait a couple of days is so you can "cool down". For example, if you come home and find some dude balls deep in your wife, you can't go to the local sports store, pick up a hand cannon, and go back to blast them. They make you wait a couple of days to really think it through

    BP
    The funny thing in N.Y. is that you can walk in to a gun shop and buy a shotgun or rifle via an instant background check that day, but it takes 6 months (thats right kids 6 months) to get a hand gun permit. Whats the logic in that? You probably have a better chance of killing someone with a shot gun then a hand gun anyway. So much for cooling off.
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    I live in D.C. and handguns havee been banned here sinced the lates seventies.

    If one purports the proposition that in area without handguns there will consquently be less violent crimes, then D.C. proves that proposition false.

    D.C. has always had a high murder rate. It has gone down recently, but it has nothing to with handguns and everything to do with yuppies moving back into city.
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    Yeah, DC completely destroys the proposition that outlawing firearms will result in any kind of a decrease in crime whatsoever. On a similar note, the expiration of the assault weapon ban failed to cajole the streets into running with blood. There is no shortage of empirical evidence defeating the proposition that anti-gun legislation will positively affect the safety of society, and a true dearth of support for the opposition. The argument is that making guns legal will result in rampant crime, but the evidence provided is that an 8 year played with Daddy's blaster and traded his sentience for the priviledge.

    I just don't get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maccabee
    The funny thing in N.Y. is that you can walk in to a gun shop and buy a shotgun or rifle via an instant background check that day, but it takes 6 months (thats right kids 6 months) to get a hand gun permit. Whats the logic in that? You probably have a better chance of killing someone with a shot gun then a hand gun anyway. So much for cooling off.
    The logic is that a handgun is considered a concealed weapon, whereas you'd have a hard time "concealing" a rifle or shotgun.

    BP
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    i agree with cdb 100% i would rather go to jail for life as long as i protect my loved ones, even if i kill them with a gun or my bare hands. Life would be safer without guns, but most people in USA have em, so i have to level the playing field by carrying one too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigP0ppa3
    Actually they CAN do instant checks - but thats not the point.

    The reason (in most states) that they make you wait a couple of days is so you can "cool down". For example, if you come home and find some dude balls deep in your wife, you can't go to the local sports store, pick up a hand cannon, and go back to blast them. They make you wait a couple of days to really think it through

    BP
    And a women who is dealing with a stalker who she thinks poses an iminent threat, how would the waiting period affect her? A person whose family is, he believes, under imminent threat, what will a waiting period do for them? It will deprive them of access to a weapon when the could possibly need it the most.

    How you deal with people who find an unpleasant situation, go to a gun store, buy a weapon and then go home and shoot someone is you put them in jail for a long time, and make it clear any amount of time beyond the ten to twenty minutes it took to get a gun negates the act of passion defense and leaves you locked up for life. I don't care what someone walks into. The act of going out, buying a gun and then going back to the situation and killing someone is premedidation in my book.
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    Plus, what are you gonna do when the zombies come? Always be prepared, I say.
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    Here is some interesting information I found, its comparing doctors and guns:

    Doctors:

    A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000
    B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000
    C) Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%

    Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services

    Guns:

    A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000
    B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
    C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

    Statistics courtesy of the FBI

    So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Something to think about when people think we should ban guns lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Dawg
    Here is some interesting information I found, its comparing doctors and guns:

    Doctors:

    A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000
    B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000
    C) Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%

    Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services

    Guns:

    A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000
    B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
    C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

    Statistics courtesy of the FBI

    So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Something to think about when people think we should ban guns lol.
    I always like throwing fun numbers like that at people. Don't sound familiar to me though, how recent are these? I remember a while ago the FBI Uniform Crime Stats being used to basically destroy the myth of 'kids being killed by guns,' where liberals wanted people to believe around 20 kids a day were dying from accidental shootings, and it actually turned out the vast majority of their statistics were made up of 19-22 year old 'kids' involved in gang drug wars, which didn't quite fit the picture of a little boy or girl finding daddy's .45 and accidentally blowing their head off. I believe most people except the die hard antigun nuts stopped using that stat rather quickly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nate Dawg
    Here is some interesting information I found, its comparing doctors and guns:

    Doctors:

    A) The number of doctors in the U.S. is 700,000
    B) Accidental deaths caused by physicians per year are 120,000
    C) Accidental deaths per physician is 17.14%

    Statistics courtesy of the U.S. Dept of Health and Human Services

    Guns:

    A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000
    B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500
    C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.001875%

    Statistics courtesy of the FBI

    So statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Something to think about when people think we should ban guns lol.
    I'm pretty sure that anti-gun fanatics aren't concerned with just the accidental gun deaths but the total gun deaths. **** most of us guns owners got guns because we were concerned with the non-accidental number of gun deaths and becoming one of those numbers.
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    here's another fun statistic: complications from immunizations kill upwards of 3000 children per year (that shuts up the 'think of the children' crowd pretty fast).
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    Those stats are worthless. Majority of time,said guns are not being handled, so of course they are not going to be cause of death. I wonder how many gun related deaths there would be if everyone who owned a gun carried it w/them every where they went w/their finger on the trigger.
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    Yes if everyone carried them there would probably be more accidents. The stats are just there to show that guns dont cause near as many deaths as other everyday things that people go through.
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    My favorite stats are the ones from states where its legal to carry firearms--they ALWAYS have much lower crime rates than their so-called "progressive" counterparts.

    Its simple, too. If Gangsta "G" is gonna rob Mr. A in somewhere like Cali, he knows that its 'almost certain' that he is the only one with a weapon or that the other guy doesn't have a weapon. Take that scanario to Texas or Arizona and Gangsta "G" is gonna get his head blown off by good 'ol Mr. A, and maybe his gun-totin' grandma, too
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    ah a man ur size needs a man sized guna get a 357 magnum or a .44 dirty hairy!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    cali is a horse of a different color with guns. like a 10 day background check, credit check, hemorroid check, etc.
    LMAO
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    One thing I think a lot of people tend to forget when discussing firearms, is the very basis this country was founded upon. The Second Amendment is the right to bear arms. In my opinion, the right for citizens to posess firearms is crucial for a number of reasons

    -Personal safety from other individuals of society (obviously)

    -Personal defense and protection from our own government - and I think this is what the founding fathers had in mind when they put this in the constitution. That, if at any point, the government becomes to restraining on its citizens, the citizens can voice their concerns, and if those concerns aren't answered and living conditions become unsuitable, they can defend themselves against an opressive government

    -Personal defense in a situation where we are attacked by another country - God forbid this would happen, especially with the strength of our military, but if it ever came down to this, you goddamn bet your ass I'm going to be sitting inside my house with the gas mask on, 12 guage on my lap, and the beretta on my hip. I'd rather get blown to pieces while firing rounds to defend myself and my family than submit, unarmed, to someone else and live the life of a piss ant.
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    I've owned a lot of glocks, .45 is the shiz caliber. Only caveat is the unsupported chamber on glocks... do NOT use reloads of any sort.

    My collection:
    H&K SOCOM Mk 23 with the OEM Insight pulsed laser
    H&K Tactical
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    Have an MP5 with Knight suppressor, uhh... no I don't[sorry ATF]
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    I'm looking into my first home defense weapon, and all I know is that it will be a shotgun at this point, either a Mossberg or a Stoeger, 12 or 20 gauge depending on what the girlfriend can handle. The statistics I've read say that a 20 guage will deliver about 75% of the lead of the 12 gague but with about 50% the recoil. A 20 guage also has about the same muzzle energy as two .44 mag rounds. So I'm not worried about that. I seriously think that if you are getting a weapon to defend your house (not carry out into public), then nothing beats a shotgun, pistols are harder to aim (I'm not saying that you can't miss with a shotgun, it is easy to, especially in closer quarters where the shot won't spread much) and deliver only one projectile at a time compared to the 8 or more projectiles delivered by a shotgun.
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    I have a mossber 500, glock 19 and a a sig p226 in a .40. I think shotguns are good for home defense, but not as maneuverable as a hand gun. Also you need two hands for a shotgun while I can shoot my sig with one hand and have a flashlight in the other. You need to be careful when talking about muzzle velocity with a shotgun, because it all depends on the type of load you use. Birdshot may not even penetrate someone with a heavy leather jacket on. I load my shotgun with #1 buck, from what I've researched it penetrates well without over penetrating.
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    I understand that point, which is why I like the loading idea a good friend of mine gave me. I will use a 20 guage Mossberg special purpose with a 6 shot capacity and speed-feed with 5 shots on the weak side of the reciver/stock. You should have the first 4 shots to come out be birdshot, the next two buckshot, the easiest two shots on the speed-feed be buckshot as well, and the last three be rifled slugs. This allows for a lot of options when it comes to ammo. I'm planning on loading all six as birdshot, with three buck and two slugs carried externally since I live in an apartment with thin walls.

    ManBeast
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    By Lander in forum Nutraplanet
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    Last Post: 08-11-2007, 10:39 PM
  3. Got my first order today. Wow
    By damien888 in forum Nutraplanet
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 09-30-2006, 10:33 AM

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