Do you stand for the National Anthem?

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by LoveCompeting View Post
    He's kneeling against police brutality but there is a reason why we were taught as Americans from a very young age to stand for the national anthem. In elementary school this is where it started. Every morning we would pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. Remember that? We did it proudly. As of right now kneeling for the national anthem is not right, and I can name you one reason. ITS UNPATRIOTIC! As an AMERICAN who is proud to be one, I find it sickening that anyone would choose to kneel during the anthem. I'll put myself in the shoes of athletes who choose to kneel and think to myself "When I know we are at war with terrorists who want to blow up the USA, am I going to kneel when I should stand proud, show that I am a strong American and respect our FLAG that identifies the 50 states of our country! THE RED WHITE AND BLUE!" **** now I am not going to kneel! I'll find different ways to express my right to protest because I am a proud AMERICAN and I refuse to kneel during the NATIONAL ANTHEM.

    For those of you who do not get this and do not find respecting our FLAG important, I pity you and you are a disgrace of an AMERICAN. Go live in the middle east where you belong.
    I got a question for you genius...When a soldier falls in combat and they bring the flag draped casket in what do other soldiers do infront of the flag and casket?....Any idea? We take a single knee and bow our head out of respect. Now all of you to include you op want to bitch about protestors taking a knee during the Anthem state y'all are mad cause y'all are PROUD AMERICANS.....Well, if your so Proud where the F*** were you when I got blown up 49 times, where were you when I got shot twice or when I got stabbed. Sure the F*** wasn't by me defending this Great Nation. My brothers were with me. They drug me out of the fight, they kept me alive, and some of them died doing it.
    You wanna prove how proud you are and wanna show these kneelers how disappointed you are them. Go serve your country, and fight in the Middle East where your telling them to go Live. End of Rant.
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Except you're ignoring that the President continues to get involved and make threats towards the protesters and the NFL for "allowing" them to protest. That's where this opens up into an Constitutional issue.
    I'm not condoning what the President is saying, and I think it's beyond stupid of him, and at the least questionable in regards to legality. That said, the legal issue here would be telling Trump he legally has to keep his mouth shut; this would in no way force employers to allow the protests to continue. There's a real distinction there. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm talking purely about the employer's right to "silence" "political speech" at work and the employees' "lack" of a "right to political speech at work." The President has no business being involved at all.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by LoveCompeting View Post
    He's kneeling against police brutality but there is a reason why we were taught as Americans from a very young age to stand for the national anthem. In elementary school this is where it started. Every morning we would pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. Remember that? We did it proudly. As of right now kneeling for the national anthem is not right, and I can name you one reason. ITS UNPATRIOTIC! As an AMERICAN who is proud to be one, I find it sickening that anyone would choose to kneel during the anthem. I'll put myself in the shoes of athletes who choose to kneel and think to myself "When I know we are at war with terrorists who want to blow up the USA, am I going to kneel when I should stand proud, show that I am a strong American and respect our FLAG that identifies the 50 states of our country! THE RED WHITE AND BLUE!" **** no I am not going to kneel! I'll find different ways to express my right to protest because I am a proud AMERICAN and I refuse to kneel during the NATIONAL ANTHEM.

    For those of you who do not get this and do not find respecting our FLAG important, I pity you and you are a disgrace of an AMERICAN. Go live in the middle east where you belong or move to CANADA like all the other sell outs who do not hold value in being patriotic.
    Yes, elementary school is where it all started. You didn't do it proudly, nobody did. Children do it because they are told to and are told over and over to do it. Children don't have the capacity to understand what pledging allegiance to anything means. That's not patriotism, that's indoctrination. I would rather you think about why you are standing or kneeling and do it because you actually believe in it, not mindless robot **** just because you've always done it that way. I've thought through all of this and still stand. If you're simply standing because somebody else told you that you're supposed to, you might as well kneel.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    I'm not condoning what the President is saying, and I think it's beyond stupid of him, and at the least questionable in regards to legality. That said, the legal issue here would be telling Trump he legally has to keep his mouth shut; this would in no way force employers to allow the protests to continue. There's a real distinction there. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying. I'm talking purely about the employer's right to "silence" "political speech" at work and the employees' "lack" of a "right to political speech at work." The President has no business being involved at all.
    I get what you're saying. It drives me nuts when people talk about free speech without understanding what it actually means from a legal standpoint. Like it or not though, the President and other politicians have interjected themselves into this issue. Trump has spoken with team owners and continues to tweet about it. That's all one thing now, as big of a mess as it is.
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    Yes, elementary school is where it all started. You didn't do it proudly, nobody did. Children do it because they are told to and are told over and over to do it. Children don't have the capacity to understand what pledging allegiance to anything means. That's not patriotism, that's indoctrination. I would rather you think about why you are standing or kneeling and do it because you actually believe in it, not mindless robot **** just because you've always done it that way. I've thought through all of this and still stand. If you're simply standing because somebody else told you that you're supposed to, you might as well kneel.
    This is a fair point. I was looking back through some things from middle school, and I realized that one of my very liberal professors had me thinking very liberal (or, more accurately, anti-conservative). Then when I got to high school and started doing some critical thinking of my own, I realized that I don't really support either party, and they're really so much more similar than people want to admit.

    It's like people who suddenly become so proper and respectful when they walk into church, but throw it all out the window the second they get out. They're missing the point. Reflect your beliefs in how you live; make it so someone will KNOW you love and respect your country by your actions, not simply because you tell people that you do. The same goes for religion and philosophy too. If you're a Christian, make it known through your actions as you try to be Christ-like. If you're a philosopher, make it known through your actions, not by what you wear or that you tell other people that you are one. If you're a bodybuilder, make it evident through your actions and your physique, not by telling everyone that you're a bodybuilder; your physique will clearly confirm or deny this. Same thing for all these areas of life really.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I get what you're saying. It drives me nuts when people talk about free speech without understanding what it actually means from a legal standpoint. Like it or not though, the President and other politicians have interjected themselves into this issue. Trump has spoken with team owners and continues to tweet about it. That's all one thing now, as big of a mess as it is.
    For sure. It's a mess now, but my primary point is that employees never had a right to freedom from consequence from political speech at work against their employer's wishes.

    I can see a ruling that politicians are not allowed to weigh in on these issues, but I don't see the legal basis for them to say that the owners/employers don't have a right to silence and/or punish political speech at work.

    Regardless, the new policy should appease everyone. If you don't want to stand for the anthem, as it's arguably political statement itself, stay in the locker room. You do not, however, have a right to stage a counter-political statement or protest. It's quite simple to me really.
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  7. Quote Originally Posted by LoveCompeting View Post
    He's kneeling against police brutality but there is a reason why we were taught as Americans from a very young age to stand for the national anthem. In elementary school this is where it started. Every morning we would pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America. Remember that? We did it proudly. As of right now kneeling for the national anthem is not right, and I can name you one reason. ITS UNPATRIOTIC! As an AMERICAN who is proud to be one, I find it sickening that anyone would choose to kneel during the anthem. I'll put myself in the shoes of athletes who choose to kneel and think to myself "When I know we are at war with terrorists who want to blow up the USA, am I going to kneel when I should stand proud, show that I am a strong American and respect our FLAG that identifies the 50 states of our country! THE RED WHITE AND BLUE!" **** no I am not going to kneel! I'll find different ways to express my right to protest because I am a proud AMERICAN and I refuse to kneel during the NATIONAL ANTHEM.

    For those of you who do not get this and do not find respecting our FLAG important, I pity you and you are a disgrace of an AMERICAN. Go live in the middle east where you belong or move to CANADA like all the other sell outs who do not hold value in being patriotic.
    Spoken like a really confused person. Honestly not every person IS TREATED LIKE AN AMERICAN! Thats the whole issue, thats whats being protested, and thats the elephant thats being IGNORED!

    What sellouts, America is nothing than a blended world and not everyone needs to stand and pledge themselves to such. It doesn't make them any less patriotic and I dont mind either side. Dont talk down on someone else then tell them they need to leave the country. Its honestly ugly and ignorant. If your so proud lets see that show in your outreach to your community and not in the oppression of others.

    If you really want to be a true American in my book just pay your taxes and not complain after you get your check.
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  8. Quote Originally Posted by LoveCompeting View Post
    Wondering how many of you stand during the anthem or if you kneel?

    I feel very strongly about this subject as I have decided to boycott Nike and never wear them again which is unfortunate since I own some really nice Nike gear.

    I feel that even though we have the right to free speech in this country a person should use different ways to protest and make their voice heard. The flag doesn't just represent justice for all. It represents the men and women who died for this country and as long as men and women are dying in war, I will always stand for my Flag. Plus right now we are at WAR with other countries who are looking to really hurt us and our allies so I will stand for that as well.
    You are just repressing free speech if you believe people should express themselves in a certain way.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    And your entire argument goes out the widow if you actually read the First Amendment and see that it only prohibits the government from restricting or penalizing free speech. Itís not that they should or shouldnít be able to protest based on their ability to fill seats, itís that the Constitution never gave them the right in the first place. Please read the First Amendment and then the article posted on the Bar Associationís website I referenced earlier in this thread. Iím not saying I donít agree with the message and intent behind the protests; Iím talking from a purely legal and Constitutional standpoint.
    it's not like the President of the United States has a video advising NFL owners to punish NFL players for demonstrating peaceful protests while on the job or anything....

  10. Quote Originally Posted by LoveCompeting View Post
    You are not looking deep enough into this. People died because they defended this flag. It isnt about justice or police brutality. The flag represents the men and women who came before us to be patriotic and serve in our military willing to die for it. Only a buffoon would think it was ok to choose to kneel when we should stand with a hand over our heart respecting the flag during its national anthem and also showing respect to those who DIED for us to have the freedom to STAND on Sundays watching football and being AMERICANS. They also served so people could be pro athletes. If those pro athletes were not free they wouldnít be able to be on that field!!! Stand and show some ****ing respect!
    They are not dying for your flag. They are dying to defend your way of life - freedom, including freedom to protest social injustice.

  11. Here is my 2 cents as an outsider ( im an aussie):

    There are two types of people opposed to kneeling during the anthom:
    Type 1 is the nationalistic patriot, who believes the flag is more important than what it stands for
    Type 2 is the racist, who is hiding behind patriotism to oppose an egalitarian agenda.

    In Australia, hardly anybody cares whether you stand, sit, kneel, sing or fart the national anthem.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by BennyMagoo79 View Post
    Here is my 2 cents as an outsider ( im an aussie):

    There are two types of people opposed to kneeling during the anthom:
    Type 1 is the nationalistic patriot, who believes the flag is more important than what it stands for
    Type 2 is the racist, who is hiding behind patriotism to oppose an egalitarian agenda.

    In Australia, hardly anybody cares whether you stand, sit, kneel, sing or fart the national anthem.
    Wait you fart during the Aussie National Anthem....NOW THAT'S WHERE I DRAW THE LINE MISTER
    I mean if you really hate your balls, go for it. But, what did they do to you?

  13. Quote Originally Posted by BennyMagoo79 View Post
    Here is my 2 cents as an outsider ( im an aussie):

    There are two types of people opposed to kneeling during the anthom:
    Type 1 is the nationalistic patriot, who believes the flag is more important than what it stands for
    Type 2 is the racist, who is hiding behind patriotism to oppose an egalitarian agenda.

    In Australia, hardly anybody cares whether you stand, sit, kneel, sing or fart the national anthem.
    Based on the Aussies I've met, I wouldn't be surprised if c**t was in the anthem a few times lol
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  14. Love my Aussie friends.
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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Yomo View Post
    it's not like the President of the United States has a video advising NFL owners to punish NFL players for demonstrating peaceful protests while on the job or anything....
    You still miss my primary point. I agree wholeheartedly that the President should not be involved, and is likely legally in the wrong, but the OWNERS/EMPLOYERS have a right to prohibit political speech from employees at work and/or penalize them for it. The President does not, but the owners do. Two different things, and Aleksander seems to understand what Iím saying.

    The fact that the protests are peaceful is not really the talking point here, itís that theyíre at work against the employerís wishes. Read the article posted by the American Bar Association please...
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  16. Do you stand for the National Anthem?


    Quote Originally Posted by BennyMagoo79 View Post
    They are not dying for your flag. They are dying to defend your way of life - freedom, including freedom to protest social injustice.
    You have no legal right to stage a protest or make political speech at work against your employerís wishes. Please read the First Amendment... it protects you from the government punishing your for your speech or restricting your speech, not a private employer.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    You still miss my primary point. I agree wholeheartedly that the President should not be involved, and is likely legally in the wrong, but the OWNERS/EMPLOYERS have a right to prohibit political speech from employees at work and/or penalize them for it. The President does not, but the owners do. Two different things, and Aleksander seems to understand what I’m saying.

    The fact that the protests are peaceful is not really the talking point here, it’s that they’re at work against the employer’s wishes. Read the article posted by the American Bar Association please...
    I didn't miss your point at all...45's involvement can easily be interpreted as prohibited by government, and/or at a minimum, in direct conflict.

  18. Donít forget the law suit about the NFL owners colluding. This is gonna be good.
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by Yomo View Post
    I didn't miss your point at all...45's involvement can easily be interpreted as prohibited by government, and/or at a minimum, in direct conflict.
    Itís unlikely. If that were the case the president could essentially tell employers to do something and essentially force them to be unable to do it, which would be an insanely dangerous precedent to set.

    Can you at least concede that the First Amendment doesnít protect political speech at work if itís against your employerís wishes? Putting aside POTUSí involvement of course?
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    You still miss my primary point. I agree wholeheartedly that the President should not be involved, and is likely legally in the wrong, but the OWNERS/EMPLOYERS have a right to prohibit political speech from employees at work and/or penalize them for it. The President does not, but the owners do. Two different things, and Aleksander seems to understand what I’m saying.

    The fact that the protests are peaceful is not really the talking point here, it’s that they’re at work against the employer’s wishes. Read the article posted by the American Bar Association please...
    I do understand what you're saying, but law isn't that black and white or else we wouldn't need lawyers. You need to also include state laws which don't always match up with federal. http://www.abajournal.com/news/artic...w_prof_argues/
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  21. Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I do understand what you're saying, but law isn't that black and white or else we wouldn't need lawyers. You need to also include state laws which don't always match up with federal. http://www.abajournal.com/news/artic...w_prof_argues/
    For sure, state and local laws undoubtedly apply if they exist; I was talking on a federal/national level.
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  22. The First Amendment reads:

    ďCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.Ē

    While what the President said is it of place and asinine, is it actually illegal? Can Trump overstepping his bounds really permanently hinder the ownersí ability to limit political speech at work? Purely a federal-level discussion, as I canít possibly know every single state law on the topic.
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  23. Quote Originally Posted by muscleupcrohn View Post
    The First Amendment reads:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”

    While what the President said is it of place and asinine, is it actually illegal? Can Trump overstepping his bounds really permanently hinder the owners’ ability to limit political speech at work? Purely a federal-level discussion, as I can’t possibly know every single state law on the topic.
    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps you're asking if what Trump did violates the first amendment. Asking it if is illegal is a much more complicated question that gets decided by others in a court, and then appealed in another court, and then appealed in yet another court.
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  24. Do you stand for the National Anthem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Aleksandar37 View Post
    I don't want to put words in your mouth, but perhaps you're asking if what Trump did violates the first amendment. Asking it if is illegal is a much more complicated question that gets decided by others in a court, and then appealed in another court, and then appealed in yet another court.
    What he did certainly violates the spirit and intent of the First Amendment, but does it actually violate the law to the point of being illegal/punishable, or impacting what the owners can and cannot do? Did Trump just say that owners should bench/fire/whatever players, or did he threaten penalties on the league/teams if they didnít? I think the later would be a clear example of him doing something illegal, while for former would perhaps just be something really stupid and inappropriate, but perhaps not punishable?
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  25. You guys just dont' get my point of view and that is ok because we are all programmed differently. Some hold value to things that others do not.

    I hold value in standing for the national anthem, always have since I was taught at a young age to value it.

    I know many children out there don't even pay attention and just go through the motions when they are standing for the pledge of allegiance. That's alright, to each their own.

    But one thing that I would never do, even though we live in America and we are free to express ourselves in any which way we want, is choose to kneel during the anthem. Reason being is that I know there is a time and place for everything.

    Unquestionably, we are an imperfect and flawed country, where bigotry, racial inequality and social injustice exist. But the notion that the American flag created or perpetuates these social ills is simply wrong.

    It is people who create and perpetuate these social ills and, unfortunately, some of these people wear the American flag on their sleeve. However, to link those individuals with our flag is both disrespectful and unappreciative of those who proudly wear the flag on their sleeve.

    The American flag embodies an incalculable generosity to those suffering from natural or man-made disasters. Americans don’t take a knee when, at home or abroad, victims of tsunamis, hurricanes, earthquakes or other natural disasters ask for our financial help.

    The American flag embodies the selfless sacrifice of those brave men and women who respond to national crises. American first responders didn’t take a knee on Sept. 11, 2001, when asked to help others amid the horrors of the twin towers. The American flag was buried with them in the rubble that day.

    The American flag embodies the courage and bravery of our service men and women when called upon to relieve the suffering and oppression of others around the world. American soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen and coasties don’t take a knee when it comes to protecting our liberties, including our First Amendment right of free speech.

    The American flag embodies the unnoticed simple acts of kindness and compassion that Americans show to one another every day. Americans don’t take a knee when it comes to helping others in need.

    We are, as our Pledge of Allegiance reminds us, “one nation, under God, indivisible.” Kneeling during our national anthem denigrates the very symbol of our indivisibility. Kneeling during our national anthem promotes division, not healing, and disrespects those that proudly wear the American flag on their sleeve as an emblem of what is good in this country.

    In a strange way, kneeling during the national anthem is both ironic and hypocritical. When those who kneel during our national anthem need the services of those Americans who proudly wear the flag, who do they call? Certainly not their supporters. They call those same fellow Americans who proudly wear the flag.

    And those people who respond to calls for help never take a knee. They respond without inquiring about race, ethnic background, social status, or political persuasion. They simply respond and, in many instances, risk their own lives in doing so. That is what the American flag is all about and that is what makes this country great.

    Those who kneel can’t have it both ways. They can’t seek to exercise those freedoms for which the American flag stands while at the same time disrespecting the very same flag and those who wear it. Simply because the First Amendment protects the right to kneel during our national anthem doesn’t mean these actions should be applauded.

    If we as a nation are to move forward in a unified effort to eradicate bigotry and eliminate racial inequality, we must change people’s minds and attitudes.

    The American flag is not a symbol of bigotry and racial inequality; it is a symbol of hope, courage, and compassion. If we as a nation believe otherwise, then our efforts to bring this country together will be for naught.

    My job, as a citizen of this nation, is to strive every day to embody what makes this country great, and to not take a knee when others around me need help, even those who kneel during our national anthem.
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