I’ve got to get this off my chest
- 04-20-2005, 07:01 PM
I’ve got to get this off my chest
There seems to be an influx of threads of late relating to people under the age of 21 taking anabolics or equally insane, people will minimal training experience (especially those people under the age of 30) taking ph’s or steroids to improve gains.
I know this has all been pointed out before, but I believe it needs to be reiterated. First, if you are taking ph’s or steroids and are under the age of 21, you are playing Russian Roulette. What is most concerning is that you are still growing and f*cking with your hormones. Your hormones peak at about age 18. Most of us would kill to have the same amount of natural test and igf-1 floating around our systems without having to engage in exogenous hormones. Take advantage of it. Train your ass off and you will grow. Aside from irreversible htpa damage, you run the risk of stunting your growth via premature growth plate closure, inducing gynecomastia (bitch tits) and accelerating the probability and growth of certain cancers.
Second, if you are over the age of 21 and are considering taking ph’s or steroids and are relatively new to training, don’t even consider it. You should be absolutely sure you have exhausted all means of progress via proper training, rest and diet. If you are not sure, you are not ready. Research. If you still are not sure, hire Bobo.
I see people who are beginning cycles with only a couple months of consistent training. This is insane. Very simply, your htpa never fully recovers after a cycle of exogenous hormones. Whenever you exceed normal physiological levels of any androgen for an extended period of time, you are going to do some irreversible damage. The purpose of PCT is to minimize that damage. But be sure, you are doing damage (regardless of age). At or near the age of 28, our bodies hormone levels being to decline. If you are under the age of 28, why accelerate this process? If you can make progress without the assistance of ph’s or steroids, why engage in their use and accelerate what will be your body’s ability to naturally produce hormones? Only if you have trained consistently for several years, have exhausted all means of progress via proper training, diet and rest and are experiencing an unusually prolonged plateau should you even consider such avenues.
Perhaps we have gotten to the point where anabolics have become to readily available. Please support Bobo and the Mods in their endeavor to keep all sources of ph’s or steroids; regardless of their current legal status away from this sacred place we call Anabolic Minds.
- 04-20-2005, 07:24 PM
[QUOTE=bow]There seems to be an influx of threads of late relating to people under the age of 21 taking anabolics or equally insane, people will minimal training experience (especially those people under the age of 30) taking ph’s or steroids to improve gains.
Ditto on that bro. There's just something inappropriate about the whole thing. I've got a guy at my gym shooting Laurabolin (sp?) right now - he has no clue about how to train, what to eat, and NO understanding of AAS (he admitted to me that he initially thought that he needed to shoot it IV). I had 10 years of training under my belt before I took any PHs. It was 1999 (or thereabouts) and PA had just brought 4ad to the market. Prior to that the closest legal thing to AAS was BP's andro6 (HAHAHAHAA!) ....oh, and EndoPro (please tell me that someone else here remembers that).
I think it would be great if there was some way to put an age limit on this board - you know, no one under 21 allowed.
- 04-20-2005, 07:34 PM
great post and i couldn't agree more!! this needs to be said every once and a while because people are just ****ing lazy and try to take the easy way out (no way not in america! ) but the reality is you are definitely short changing yourself and possibly really ****ing yourself up
i do have a question though..
Originally Posted by bow
04-20-2005, 07:37 PM
really, its a good point but who cares? these people have been told time and time again and msot won't listen. they are going to do it if they want to.
04-20-2005, 07:47 PM
Good Post. It seems like alot of the new SD threads are from people coming over from BB.com since they're not allowed to discuss it there.Originally Posted by bow
04-20-2005, 08:00 PM
Great post bow.
It wasn't long ago that I was that dumb, impatient 16 year old..if I could only go back and change things
04-20-2005, 08:03 PM
I'm glad that I never took PH's or any AAS quite yet, posts like this make me remember why.
I love learning about the body and what effects what systems..browsing posts here is an education
Maybe someday I will get started on the anabolic road, but I still feel like I can grow without it. But I'll know what I need to do when the time comes...unlike many of my buddies who took PH's when they were all the rage..not taking them seriously because they ordered them off of a website.
04-20-2005, 08:05 PM
bump to glens post...pretty sure as long as the proper pct is done, taking hcg on cycle, and not doing an insanely long cycle, eventually your body will resume its normal level of hormone production. But without the proper ancillaries and precautions I do see how it is possible to cause irreversible damage.
04-20-2005, 08:12 PM
bow, I am very curious about your statement that one’s HTPA never fully recovers after a cycle. I have thought about this possibility quite a bit also. Does anyone have more info regarding this matter?
04-20-2005, 08:20 PM
Unfortunately, I don't have any specific studies to support. It's something I have read on more than one occasion from HRT physicians. I will try to find the supporting info.
However, it follows (to a degree). Like anything physiologically, it’s related to the depth and severity of damage. To draw an analogy, it you get a scratch, it will heal. If the cut it deep and severe, it will scar. I would agree that you can very likely completely recover from short cycles consisting of mildly androgenic hormones. But where do you draw the line? How does age factor in? How about genetics? I almost guarantee that some people, no matter how carefuly drawn up the cycle is, will never fully recover. The fact is, nobody knows where that line is. The message is to error on the side of caution.
04-20-2005, 08:38 PM
Excellent post Bow. What I find most disconcerting, are the number of teenagers (especially at that "other" forum) who have no idea how to train properly, eat right, and naturally maximize their gains, yet want to start a cycle of this ph or that ps. In fact, their only concern relates to ph's, and where/how to get them and use them. They don't seek advice how to train properly or develop a nutritional plan. It's a shame. Most of them haven't trained but a year or two (if that) and want to start a ph cycle. Rather than utilize the high-t levels they already have, they want to take the "fast-track" to attaining muscle, while screwing up their bodies in the process. There are times, even at this board, where teenages will make their very post a question about ph's. Luckily, Bobo and the other mods take care of them. The same cannot be said though, at other boards. These kids have no clue what they are getting themselves into. The next thing you know, these kids are wondering why they continue to develop breasts, why they've completely lost their sex drive, and why all the "gains" they made on a cycle have all but left, post-cycle.
04-20-2005, 08:51 PM
This is exactly the type of post I was talking about in another thread when I said it would be great if the mods could come up with some function that provides an automated reply when the same stupid questions are asked repeatedly by noobs. You just provided what should be the automated response.
I have only dabbled very lightly in anabolics, two light dose, short duration cycles, and I feel that knowing more now than I did then I too should have waited, despite the fact that I researched for about 6 months and continue to learn more every day. I've learned from my mistakes (fortunately not the hard way) and I signed up with Bobo for 16 weeks. I'm gonna get everything tight as hell before I venture into another cycle, and even then I will continue on the side of caution.
04-20-2005, 08:58 PM
i know there are a lot of irresponsible teens and people that want gains quick but by putting and age limit on this forum it just inhibits people like me to just read around and try to educate themselves about the topic so they dont do anything stupid when they actually get into it. If anything just put a limit of the age of people able to post if thats possible.
04-20-2005, 09:00 PM
before i get flamed for being 19, save your typing fingers. i am not going to do, nor have i ever done ph's of any kind.Originally Posted by bow
your post was really good, but i was just wondering if you could clear this up for me. and again, i am NOT going to use ph's i just like to read stuff from all forums.
you said that natural test peaks at 18. you then said it begins to decline at around 28. does that mean your hormones stay at peak for about 10 years? the way i think of it, if they peak at 18, they will start gradually going down from that time on. please correct me if i am wrong
04-20-2005, 09:00 PM
All I can say is that we are all very fortunate to have this forum. The use of anabolic steroids and prohormones is so complicated that it is fair to say that no one really understands the full extent to which altering our hormonal environment changes our body. Thankfully, we have knowledgeable members that have experience in this matter. I do have a substantial supply of hormones but I have decided to learn from this board before I dive into some heavy cycles.
04-20-2005, 09:01 PM
I'm thinking more along the lines of neurological damage, i.e through hormone manipulation, and neurotransmitters? Similar to overstimulation of the Gaba/norepinephrine/dopamine/seratonin levels through abusive use of different substances.Originally Posted by bow
04-20-2005, 09:16 PM
I'm surprised none of you guys considered the possibility of Feds or other law enforcement agents posting such things in order to get people (Bobo) in trouble. For example that recent post where there was a poll that was just yes or no, but most people were answering "no" because they misread or didn't read the post itself, and the kid was asking if it was a good idea if his young brother used 1AD. Don't be too confident the confusion wasn't intentional. Out of context that could look very bad, and that may be just what someone wants.
You actually see a lot of this on other boards, supposedly independent boards about other drugs that show a frequent amount of postings that are so blatantly planted it's ridiculous. While it's good common sense to give people who are young and/or inexperienced the advise of not using, it's also a must. We don't need this board showing up on the nightly news as a place where 'teenagers frequently go to get advice on how to aquire and use steroids,' or some such nonsense like that. It's not just a matter of doing the right thing and telling them to stay away until they get older and more experienced, it's also a matter of covering our asses.
Maybe I'm just paranoid, but I doubt it. It's just the kind of thing I'd be doing if i was targeting a certain group of people. C.Y.A. Cover Your Ass.
04-20-2005, 09:46 PM
Great post bow, but this is one thing I never got. If this statement is true and considering all factors are the same, then why do people over 21 on AAS/PH gain more muscle on an 8 week cycle than a person under 21 would in those same 8 weeks? If what your saying above is true, then why is there such a great allure for people who's hormones are peaking to use AAS/PH's?Originally Posted by bow
04-20-2005, 09:49 PM
because while a person at 18 does have the highest levels of test he ever naturally will .. its no where close to 500mg a week
04-20-2005, 09:59 PM
because a first cycle done right at a moderate doseage for 12 weeks can net you a 30lb gain. it would take a natural 20 year old male around 2-3 years to do that IF he knows what he is doing...Originally Posted by KCPreki11
04-20-2005, 10:16 PM
Those gains would be lost though to the uneducated.Originally Posted by chasec
04-20-2005, 10:19 PM
i disagree with that i gained 25 pounds naturally from the ages of 19-20Originally Posted by chasec
04-20-2005, 10:22 PM
I gained roughly 15-20 within the first 6 months I actually started dieting correctly and training correctly when I was only 18, and I'm sure I could have done even better if I knew what i know now.
04-20-2005, 10:40 PM
We do have a limit on the age that can post.. it is called the HONOR SYSTEM.. the rules are there for everyone, and by not honoring them you are just telling all of us in the forum that you don't have any respect for us or what we are trying to accomplish with this forum. I singled out you IR and I am going to be singling out ItalStallion because both of you did what you were telling others not to do, I appreciate the fact that you guys read here and I want you to but just hang off on the posting..Originally Posted by IRserge
I think I am going to move this over to General Chat so that everyone can comment and not be breaking the rules.. if anyone objects.. sorry...
04-21-2005, 07:55 PM
sorry about that, i tried hard to stay out of it, but his post just didnt make sense to me, and i believe it probably didnt to anyone else that read it closely. i will no longer post in the ph/steroid sections only read stuff. i really do love to learn about all the different things people talk about on here. again, i am sorry and it wont happen again
04-21-2005, 07:58 PM
- 6'1" 221 lbs.
- Join Date
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I really appreciate that post. If we could only have more people of your age act in this manner.
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
04-25-2005, 01:28 AM
from ages 18-19 (i turn 19 in about 2 months) i gained 20 lbs. AND my abs look better.Originally Posted by glenihan
i've gained 5 lbs in the past 3 weeks actually, since i've been eating much better.
i wouldn't have done it without this site, that's why i don't want people under 21 to be restricted from this site!
04-25-2005, 11:31 AM
that's true. i wasn't talking about a person who is just starting out though. beginners make incredible progress in a very small timeframe. i was referring more to the 20-30 year old male who has been training for a few years and whose gains have slowed. i also gained roughly 20 lbs in the first 2 years of serious natural trainingOriginally Posted by glenihan
04-25-2005, 11:33 AM
sad but true; i was thinking that if they have the sense to plan a proper cycle then they would have the knowledge to retain those gains. i guess thats not always the caseOriginally Posted by ryansm
04-25-2005, 12:29 PM
That's not necessarily true. New research I've read indicates your natural T levels are at their peak in early adulthood well into your early twenties. There's actually not much difference in your test levels even when you in your thirties. not until senescence does your T levels start to drop off. Take a look at this graph it also shows t levels when we sleep ect.. (credit for the graph to a good bro Chodem who teaches a hormonal physiology course)Originally Posted by glenihan
04-25-2005, 12:37 PM
very interesting graph J .. my main point though was that while test levels are high at that age (and apparently afterwards as well) they won't approach the test levels of someone taking in 500mg of exogeneous test a weekOriginally Posted by jminis
04-25-2005, 12:55 PM
I know what your point was I just wanted to use my nice new graph. LOLOriginally Posted by glenihan
04-25-2005, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by jminis
Yea, but I think the distinction is as to when senescence begins. My understanding was that it begins at about age 30. Hence my statement regarding hormones peaking at 18 and then begenning to really decline at age 28. From one of my biology texts:
29.1 Statistical definition of senescence
Senescence is the term used for the process of physical deterioration that is associated with aging. Several physiological criteria may be considered to define senescence, but we will use a statistical definition based mortality rate.
On a graph of mortality rate (fig 29b), a high starting point indicates a high infant mortality. This rate declines to about age 10, then increases again during the teenage years. Mortality rate levels off during the 20's and 30's then it increases exponentially from 30 to 80 years of age. Past 100 years, the graph of mortality rate shows a plateau, presumably because individuals who survive that long may be genetically predisposed for a long life span.
Mortality rate doubling time (MRDT) is the time interval during which mortality doubles. Based on census data of 1960, the MRDT for humans between 30 and 80 years is approximately 8 years. Thus at age 38, mortality will be double that at age 30.
Humans and other organisms are susceptible to death from various causes, and this changes with age. Thus we may define senescence as an increase in mortality rate with time.
04-25-2005, 01:04 PM
Good thread...however, I'd like to add another part to this topic....
What I REALLY hate, is when *adults* ( I won't mention any names here) that have NEVER cycled AAS before but "think" they know what they're talking about in RE to doseages, sides, cycle protocols, etc. because they did some reading out of either a med book, an online journal, etc.
They think that warrants them to be "knowledgeable" on AAS and this allows them to start giving out advice to other people that are trying to get help. This bugs the **** outa me and IMHO it should not be allowed...period. Yet, I see it happening almost every day here and elsewhere.
04-25-2005, 02:40 PM
04-25-2005, 02:47 PM
- 6'1" 221 lbs.
- Join Date
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Originally Posted by lifted
Well that rules out almost every HRT doctor.
If you want to be really technical, there isn't one person on this forum medically quialified to give out advise on hormones.
So whether you have injected or not, the information is the same.
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
04-25-2005, 04:05 PM
I wish I would of wated I took a small dose of tren when I was 20 and did a 10 week cycle of 1T 4-ad last fall. Blood work comes in this week to see if I am back to normal. If I am back to normal no more drugs for me till I have kids and have finished my military career. I woudl like to compete within the next 6 years if I have to do it naturally then so be it. I have stressed to much about ****ing up my body with drugs
04-25-2005, 06:06 PM
Yeah, I see what you mean. I wasn't really reffering to AAS advice in general though (have to use it to advise on it)...just the advice given by some random guy on the internet. If not a qualified physician, then I'd prefer it that the person on the internet that I'm gettign advice from had used AAS before to know how things feel and how to understand them more efficiently. If this random guy happens to be an HRT doc, then I guess I can let him slide...lol.Originally Posted by Bobo
04-25-2005, 08:52 PM
while that would be nice; i have a sneaking suspicion that about 75% of the stuff people claim here (knowledge, experience, etc.) is a big ****ing lie. i'd say most of it is regurgitated BS that has been passed down from one generation of bodybuilders to the next. sorting out the good stuff is the fun part...Originally Posted by lifted
04-25-2005, 09:04 PM
That said, my total T levels at age 19 before I knew what a steroid/PH was, was 500. Normal, but pretty damn low for a supposed "peak" age. Of course I'll yield to the data showing I was abnormal case I guess, but yeah... just wanted to mention.
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