if time travel was posible what would happen if you went into the past and killed you

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  1. if time travel was posible what would happen if you went into the past and killed you


    so lets imagine that time travel is possible which einstein believed it was. you are 30 years old and you go back in time and kill yourself when you are 10. how could it be possible because you would have never grown to be 30 and to go back in time? so what would happen?

    my friends and i got into this discussion. they think it would be possible but i will give my opinion after i here some other.


  2. Your conversion, with or without your knowledge, is often called the grandfather paradox but rather than killing yourself, you kill your grandfather. This often leads to the discussion of parallel universes. If you are interesting in learning more about this, then read about M-theory and its 11 dimensions.

  3. someone has been indulging in something other than PH's
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  4. aha i woud actually really be intersted to read about this theory. i am always interested in in things that get your imagination going like afterlife, aliens, ghosts, dinosaurs, and time travel. it sounds flaky but i think it is fun to wonder about stuff. so what do you think would happen size?

  5. Quote Originally Posted by SJA
    someone has been indulging in something other than PH's
    hahahaha I was thinking the same thing

  6. Quote Originally Posted by hogiejoe
    so what do you think would happen size?
    If I could answer this question, then I probably would win a Nobel prize. It is a very confusing slope to approach this subject matter and those connected to it. One needs to completely change ones thought process in my experience.

    If this sort of topic interests you, then try reading and learning about quantum mechanics, general relativity, and string theory. One can progress from there to many interesting ideas. I know some books you probably can find at a local library that you could read on these topics.

    I really enjoy these topics but they are very confusing. The math used in the proofs is overwhelming and mind numbing.

  7. this discussion is very encouraging, indeed! So much for the old adage that bber's are just a bunch of meatheads. Quantum mechanics, time travel, philosophy???....nice! Or, yeah, either that, or someone got into some of the good nootropics!

  8. This place has never been the typical bb'ng board. That's why I like it so much.

    These topics also interest me, but the damn math gets in the way everytime. Stuff just blows my mind.


  9. Two books to read that are fairly cheap and will blow your mind Hyperspace by Kaku and The Elegant Universe by Greene. Both explain string theory and time travel. It isn't necessarily that you can travel in your own past. Instead you are more traveling in other peoples' pasts. In other words. When you begin to reach the speed of light (lets say around .9 times the speed of light) time starts to slow down, however, it ONLY slows down in your referance frame. Other peopl's reference frames continue to go on at the same time. The strange thing is, you see other peoples reference frames going slower but to an outside observer you are moving slower. I study a lot of physics and theoretical physics and it is very easy to get a headache reading this stuff trying to figure it out lol..
    PharmD

  10. You could try Beyond Einstein by Kaku or A Brief History of Time by Hawking as well. The math is hidden if that's not your thing.

    I've taken courses in Quantum Mech. and General Relativity and it's crazy stuff. The implication of these theories are crazier than many things that people could dream up.





    edit: first book title and author were wrong

  11. I agree on The Elegant Universe and A Brief History of Time. Both are very good works; I especially like The Elegant Universe simply b/c I like Greene's writing style. Another book is Hawking's The Universe in a Nutshell.

    Be aware for some,these books do not read quickly. If you are like me, then when you read them you may find yourself pondering thoughts for extended periods of time. In some cases, I would read only a few pages and then literally think about the ideas for hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by jas123
    I've taken courses in Quantum Mech. and General Relativity and it's crazy stuff. The implication of these theories are crazier
    It really is wild, crazy,astounding, etc. In truth, I find it inspirational.

  12. stephen hawking has some good books on this. i read one a few years back called black holes and some other ****. interesting stuff, talked about wormholes, string theory, etc.

    "black holes and baby universes and other essays"
    that's the name of it, amazon has everything.
    Last edited by Beelzebub; 03-08-2005 at 11:39 PM.

  13. I will bump the brief history of time.. Hawkin was kicking in that one.. as for the time dilations at or near the speed of light.. it actually starts at speeds much lower but due to our linear nature, we can't detect it till it start to be around .5 the speed of light and higher. I had the introduction to quantum mechs as part of my undergrad degree.. the reading was outstanding and very thought provoking like size said.. the math on the other had took way to much paper to complete a problem

  14. In an Illustrated Brief History of Time, Hawking proposes two theories about travelling into the past. Under one, you have no free will, so nothing you do there can change the future, and in the other, more popular one, you do have free will and can change the future. So if you killed your earlier self or father, you would create an alternate future.

  15. i've been interested in this since i took an upper level physics course. we touched on the theory of relativity, and it blew my mind. i'm going to pick up that hawking book tomorrow. i'll read a book by anybody in his circumstance, much less a brilliant mathmatician.

  16. Sounds like someone has gotten ahold of the designer drug THC.

  17. I personally back the multiple world theory in that there are an infinite number of world lines, so that if time travel were possible you wouldn't be killing yourself on the same worldline you had been born in because you would have a slight divbergence between timelines and worldlines, thus making it a moot point. The better wuestion is if time travel is possible. So far, there are a few theories, all of which are either impossible (tipler cylinders involving infinite mass), or would destroy anything that it actually sent through time (wormholes).

  18. Quote Originally Posted by griz145389
    The better question is if time travel is possible.
    I think it is not a question of "can" but rather a question of "how". However, I must admit that I waver on this. It is such an unconventional thought that it is difficult to consider.

    The universe is truly amazing.
  19. ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday
    ItriedtoripoffBobosonowIamgonehaveaniceday's Avatar

    WOW! This is a topic I have been interested for a while but have never gone in depth on reading about it, just talked about it in a conversation with relatively bright friends. Which books would you pick out of the above for a person not keen on the math at all and just getting into this subject, thanks guys?!

  20. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    Two books to read that are fairly cheap and will blow your mind Hyperspace by Kaku and The Elegant Universe by Greene. Both explain string theory and time travel. It isn't necessarily that you can travel in your own past. Instead you are more traveling in other peoples' pasts. In other words. When you begin to reach the speed of light (lets say around .9 times the speed of light) time starts to slow down, however, it ONLY slows down in your referance frame. Other peopl's reference frames continue to go on at the same time. The strange thing is, you see other peoples reference frames going slower but to an outside observer you are moving slower. I study a lot of physics and theoretical physics and it is very easy to get a headache reading this stuff trying to figure it out lol..
    We(my physics class) was discussing this with the teacher not long ago and we were told that if there were 2 twins, say they are both 20yrs old. 1 stays on earth, 1 gets shot off in a rocket through the universe @ ~90% the speed of light.

    50years later when the rocket returns, the twin that stayed on earth is now 70 and appears old. The other twin however has the appearance of a 20, maybe 30year old, because time to him has slowed down while he was on the rocket going close to the speed of light.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by meathead1987
    50years later when the rocket returns, the twin that stayed on earth is now 70 and appears old. The other twin however has the appearance of a 20, maybe 30year old, because time to him has slowed down while he was on the rocket going close to the speed of light.
    Well, the idea is right but the time is drastically incorrect. The twin on earth would be long since dead and so would everyone else that the "space" twin ever met. Your teacher needs to learn more before teaching the class these concepts.

  22. That was what I was about to say size... time dilation that close to the speed of light would really cause a major difference between the two twins..
    As for a good book, Hawkin's A Brief History of Time is the way to go.

  23. You guys are all a nerds.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by size
    Well, the idea is right but the time is drastically incorrect. The twin on earth would be long since dead and so would everyone else that the "space" twin ever met. Your teacher needs to learn more before teaching the class these concepts.
    i think there was a Twilight Zone episode about that ... seriously lol

  25. I can post the relativistic equations if you want. You guys do have your time dilation numbers way off. And as I stated earlier in the thread. It isn't as much that you can travel back into your own past but instead you are traveling into everyone elses past because they are aging faster. Your reference frame slows down relative to theirs. Therefore if they are aging faster than technically your in their past. The strange thing is, your technically traveling into their reference times future as well considering if you were traveling anywhere near the speed of light than they will be long dead.

    But lets not forget that near light speed travel is almost impossible and will be for thousands of years. Reason is simple and it goes back to Newton. F(force)=m(mass) x a(acceleration). Now think if we increase acceleration to anywhere near the speed of light your mass starts to become infinite. And at light speed there is an assymptote showing that mass would become infinite and in other words to travel exactly 1c (the speed of light) you would need more energy than there is in the entire universe. Now think if we wanted to travel .999 the speed of light or hell even .8 the speed of light how much energy we would need.
    PharmD

  26. Quote Originally Posted by size
    I think it is not a question of "can" but rather a question of "how". However, I must admit that I waver on this. It is such an unconventional thought that it is difficult to consider.

    The universe is truly amazing.
    I guess it depends on what you consider time travel. If you consider the twin paradox type of situation that meathead described as time travel into the future of the "stationary" earth to be time travel then it is possible (this is the premise of the original Planet of the Apes movie).
    I believe this "time travel" has actually been acheived by some sort of decaying particle. The particle accelerator at Stanford has gotten a decaying particle up to a high enough speed so that the decay time of the particle was significantly longer than it would have been if it were traveling at a lower speed.

    As far as time travel into the past goes, who knows it's just sort of educated guesses as far as I can tell.

    Using quantum mechanics, an Australian physicist claimed to have teleported a beam of light a few years ago. Not sure what became of that, but it's very science fictiony.

  27. Since you couldn't go back and kill yourself when you were 10, could you go back in time and kill your grandparents or change events to where they never got married or anything?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    i read one a few years back called black holes and some other ****.
    That seriously had me laughing, just had a mental picture of a book called that.

  29. I just don't see how you could travel back in time, I can only see traveling into the future through a slowing/halting of our cellular metabolism much like a bear's hibernation or like those theoretical sleep chambers you see in movies made for travelling light years away without aging. To travel in the past to me would be more like traveling to a paralell dimension where you could also exist(as a younger or older version of yourself) much like that movie with Jet Li where he kills himself in other dimensions except I doubt you would become god-like from doing that. But in killing yourself that way you still remain but the you from that dimension is now dead...

  30. Quote Originally Posted by size
    I agree on The Elegant Universe and A Brief History of Time. .
    There is also PBS special series out there in which Greene outlines string theory and M theory by the same title The Elegant Universe . It shows periodically on PBS but you can get the tape/dvd from PBS.org. It explains the theory in a very logical and real world format less the mathmatical foundations.

  31. The key to travelling faster than the speed of light lies in accelleration. To ACCELERATE to the speed of light would require infinite energy. However to travel at the speed of light does not inherently require any energy. Additionally, relativistic time dilation occurs during acceleration, not because of velocity. Thus, if there were some way to achieve the speed of light without accelerating to it (i.e. to simply change state such that you instantly travel the speed of light without accelerating) then that would bypass all of the problems with relativity. How that can be accomplished is beyond my understanding however there are events in nature which can cause this. Hawking Radiation is such a thing. Hawking Particles are particles which are capable of escaping a Black Hole. As we know this is only possible if they are travelling faster than the speed of light. They are. Additionally, they have mass so aparently it is possible to achieve speeds faster than light. However Hawking particles do not accellerate to this speed; they simply achieve it. It has to do with particle pairs and Quantum Theory. According to Quantum Theory, particle pairs "appear" all the time. However they always come in matter/anti-matter opposites. Thus the moment they appear they are cancelled out. However, when such a pair appears such that one particle is inside the event horizon of a black hole, and the other is on the outside, the pair is split; the one inside remains inside, while the other shoots off at faster than light speed. This is also how black holes manage to "bleed" off mass constantly over time, since the mass that was lost came from the black hole. It is also why black holes can become unstabel and eventually explode. Anyway, faster than light travel is possible. Acceleration to light speed or beyond is impossible.


    As for time travel, my belief is that were one to travel into the past, they would not be capable of travelling into their own past. The past they travel to would of course be an alternate reality, even if they did nothing in it. Thus they would be free to do whatever they want without causing any kind of paradox. If they killed their younger selves, they would continue to exist because their origin is from an entirely different reality to begin with. Then when they travel back into the future, they are once again travelling to an alternate reality, but in this instance one more closely related to the reality you were just in. Thus, the future you travel to would be affected by the events the time traveller kicked off in the past.

  32. The following truly is amazing to me, and it shuold give you a sense of the change in thought process that takes place when reading these works.

    "Electrons cannot be described as simultaneously being at such-and-such location and having such-and-such speed."
    Imagine if one captured a single electron and placed it in a box and completed sealed the box. Now, there is a sealed box that contains one electron. Next, one begins to compress the walls of the box inorder to pinpoint the location of the electron; as this occurs, the electron becomes wilder by bouncing off walls and increasing speed. As the process continues with the electron becoming exponentially wilder as the walls compress, the electron will be outside the box.


    This is from The Elegant Universe. The book is much different than just this but Greene gives nice examples that are more understandable:
    George looks into his papaya juice and notices that the ice cubes are incessantly rattling around pens next. As George and Gracie stare at her rattling drink with wide-eyed wonderment, they see a single ice cube pass through the side of her glass and drop down to the bar. They grab the glass and see that it is fully intact ; somehow the ice cube went right through the solid glass without causing any damage. "Must be post-space-walk hallucinations," says George. They each fight off the frenzy of careening ice cubes to down their drinks in one go, and head home to recover. Little do George and Gracie realize that in their haste to leave, they mistook a decorative door painted on a wall of the bar for the real thing. The patrons of the H-Bar, though, are well accustomed to people passing through walls and hardly take note of George and Gracie's abrupt departure....................Such unfamiliar and bizarre happenings are typical of how our universe, on extremely small scales, actually behaves.

  33. Quote Originally Posted by size
    The following truly is amazing to me, and it shuold give you a sense of the change in thought process that takes place when reading these works.

    "Electrons cannot be described as simultaneously being at such-and-such location and having such-and-such speed."
    Imagine if one captured a single electron and placed it in a box and completed sealed the box. Now, there is a sealed box that contains one electron. Next, one begins to compress the walls of the box inorder to pinpoint the location of the electron; as this occurs, the electron becomes wilder by bouncing off walls and increasing speed. As the process continues with the electron becoming exponentially wilder as the walls compress, the electron will be outside the box.
    This is called the Heisenberg Uncertaintly Principle.. "The more precisely the POSITION is determined,the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known"


    Nullifidian- I mentioned that about acceleration earlier in the thread. However it is impossible to bypass all means of acceleration. Another interesting concept that Einstein thought up with relativity is the fact that everyone is kind of traveling around the universe at the speed of light since us relative to some galaxy trillions of light years away we are actually traveling light speed or higher "relative" to them. It is an interesting concept.

    You also mention Hawking Radiation. This is a newer concept and very recently Hawking found that he was wrong about many aspects of his black hole theory and corrected them somewhat. Hawking radiation only escapes however due to the fact that it is charged differently than the black hole itself. It is basically an anti-particle to those entering the black hole (although this is more new to me).
    PharmD

  34. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    This is called the Heisenberg Uncertaintly Principle.. "The more precisely the POSITION is determined,the less precisely the MOMENTUM is known"
    Sure is. This typically leads into quantum tunneling which leads me to go get a beer.

    LakeMountD.............are you working in theoretical physics?

  35. This is a very interesting topic, I have thought about it some, but never too deeply. I just got done with a biochem test, and after reading all these ideas and considering my brain hurts lol. I think I am going to go take a nap.

  36. Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    As for time travel, my belief is that were one to travel into the past, they would not be capable of travelling into their own past. The past they travel to would of course be an alternate reality, even if they did nothing in it. Thus they would be free to do whatever they want without causing any kind of paradox. If they killed their younger selves, they would continue to exist because their origin is from an entirely different reality to begin with. Then when they travel back into the future, they are once again travelling to an alternate reality, but in this instance one more closely related to the reality you were just in. Thus, the future you travel to would be affected by the events the time traveller kicked off in the past.
    So if you took that theory, and went back in the past and killed yourself. Then traveled back into the "present" alternate reality that was affected by the past they altered, your parents wouldn't have a kid but now they did? And your parents/friends of the original reality would lose you forever?

  37. Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    So if you took that theory, and went back in the past and killed yourself. Then traveled back into the "present" alternate reality that was affected by the past they altered, your parents wouldn't have a kid but now they did? And your parents/friends of the original reality would lose you forever?
    Your friends from your original reality would lose YOU forever, but may perhaps have a different version of you from another reality arrive in their midst. In any case, the reality you travel to when you go back into the future after having killed your younger self will be one without you. So when you get there, your parents will not know you, and your friends will not know you, because your parents will have remembered you being killed, and your friends will have never met you.

  38. If I were able to go back in time, I wouldn't kill myself. I'd have sex with myself...Because I'm a sexy bitch!

    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Carry on.

  39. Quote Originally Posted by Cuffs
    If I were able to go back in time, I wouldn't kill myself. I'd have sex with myself...Because I'm a sexy bitch!

    Sorry, I couldn't resist. Carry on.
    But does this make you gay or just masturbating?
  

  
 

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