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Why Gawd? Why?!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29

    guess i should have spelled it out.yes i believe they should be able to serve in a platoon making judgements like you are doing is no different than when African Americans weren't allow in sports and etc because they were looked at as inferior
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
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    sad this couldn't have stayed a simple debate without the use of name calling and a negative rep.I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter.I believe women should have the same right to enlist as men into platoons and any other area regardless on if I believe its safe or not it shouldn't be anyone's place to say you can't do something because you feel they are inferior to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    sad this couldn't have stayed a simple debate without the use of name calling and a negative rep.I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter.I believe women should have the same right to enlist as men into platoons and any other area regardless on if I believe its safe or not it shouldn't be anyone's place to say you can't do something because you feel they are inferior to you.
    http://usarmybasic.com/army-physical...apft-standards

    Check that PT standard difference.


    But of course, you have absolutely no experience AT ALL and will continue to disagree with all of the people who have FIRST HAND experience.

    Hell, my minimum for pushups is 100% for a woman of the same age, which is ridiculous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    sad this couldn't have stayed a simple debate without the use of name calling and a negative rep.I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter.I believe women should have the same right to enlist as men into platoons and any other area regardless on if I believe its safe or not it shouldn't be anyone's place to say you can't do something because you feel they are inferior to you.
    You say that now...until that women who has the same rights as you has to save your ass on the front line, but can't because she's not strong enough to move you around...BUT she passed her PT test and meets the physical standards so it's ok right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    http://usarmybasic.com/army-physical...apft-standards

    Check that PT standard difference.


    But of course, you have absolutely no experience AT ALL and will continue to disagree with all of the people who have FIRST HAND experience.
    Experience has nothing to do with it.prejudge is prejudge.


    I'm aware of the requirements I've already had this debate with others who have served on the matter long before this thread was even created.if your that scared because a woman is next to you in a bunker and you don't feel your safe you shouldn't have signed up in the first place.saying they can't serve simply because they are a woman is no difference then any other form of prejudge I'm not saying they aren't a risk if you had read through my response instead of raving like a mad man you would have noticed that. I am saying they should have the right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    sad this couldn't have stayed a simple debate without the use of name calling and a negative rep.I guess we will agree to disagree on this matter.I believe women should have the same right to enlist as men into platoons and any other area regardless on if I believe its safe or not it shouldn't be anyone's place to say you can't do something because you feel they are inferior to you.
    You have completely missed the points made on the matter and choose to see it as a women's rights issue. There's are point where things cease to be sexist and are just true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    You have completely missed the points made on the matter and choose to see it as a women's rights issue. There's are point where things cease to be sexist and are just true.
    I've addressed this in the thread above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post

    Experience has nothing to do with it.prejudge is prejudge.

    I'm aware of the requirements I've already had this debate with others who have served on the matter long before this thread was even created.if your that scared because a woman is next to you in a bunker and you don't feel your safe you shouldn't have signed up in the first place.saying they can't serve simply because they are a woman is no difference then any other form of prejudge I'm not saying they aren't a risk if you had read through my response instead of raving like a mad man you would have noticed that. I am saying they should have the right.
    Experience has EVERYTHING to do with it.

    I'm not talking about a woman being on a FOB with me or in garrison with me being a problem, I'm talking about a woman being in combat with me and not being physically capable to do things that need to be done for everyone to survive. I'm talking about making movements with rucks that weigh as much as she does and other members of the PLT having to take some of her load because she can't handle it.

    I've seen the women that wear the same uniform as me out and about doing PT and doing Ruck Marches (with only 35 pounds) and they can't keep the pace that their unit is going at and my unit RUNS with ours.

    Forgive me for not having faith in a woman because I've seen them in action and they can't survive the cut.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post

    Experience has nothing to do with it.prejudge is prejudge.

    I'm aware of the requirements I've already had this debate with others who have served on the matter long before this thread was even created.if your that scared because a woman is next to you in a bunker and you don't feel your safe you shouldn't have signed up in the first place.saying they can't serve simply because they are a woman is no difference then any other form of prejudge I'm not saying they aren't a risk if you had read through my response instead of raving like a mad man you would have noticed that. I am saying they should have the right.
    Soo the men signing up and dying in those bunkers don't have the right to at least be as safe as possible and deserve to be put at more "risk" than they already are? If they should have the right they should have to match our physical standards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post

    Soo the men signing up and dying in those bunkers don't have the right to at least be as safe as possible and deserve to be put at more "risk" than they already are? If they should have the right they should have to match our physical standards.
    Which is my point.

    If they want to be in a line company the need to meet a line company standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    Which is my point.

    If they want to be in a line company the need to meet a line company standard.
    I concur lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    Experience has EVERYTHING to do with it.

    I'm not talking about a woman being on a FOB with me or in garrison with me being a problem, I'm talking about a woman being in combat with me and not being physically capable to do things that need to be done for everyone to survive. I'm talking about making movements with rucks that weigh as much as she does and other members of the PLT having to take some of her load because she can't handle it.

    I've seen the women that wear the same uniform as me out and about doing PT and doing Ruck Marches (with only 35 pounds) and they can't keep the pace that their unit is going at and my unit RUNS with ours.

    Forgive me for not having faith in a woman because I've seen them in action and they can't survive the cut.
    For the sake of asking...because you guys HAVE the experience and know about this. Lets say you get a 5'11 185lb Viking-descendant "female" that can do all you can...I mean I know 1 out of a million, she also has done multiple Test or 19nor cycles and DHT derivatives...her sexual preferences may even be on our side...

    For the sake of asking...assuming she can even outbest the WEAKEST and SLOWEST MALE member of infantry...again a 1 in a MILLION chance...but would YOU have a problem with "her" serving in the infantry lines?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    For the sake of asking...because you guys HAVE the experience and know about this. Lets say you get a 5'11 185lb Viking-descendant "female" that can do all you can...I mean I know 1 out of a million, she also has done multiple Test or 19nor cycles and DHT derivatives...her sexual preferences may even be on our side...

    For the sake of asking...assuming she can even outbest the WEAKEST and SLOWEST MALE member of infantry...again a 1 in a MILLION chance...but would YOU have a problem with "her" serving in the infantry lines?
    Not at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danb2285 View Post
    Not at all.
    Thanks, this proves a point. We are not talking about gender (or race) discrimination (stab meant at mitch, no shame just making sense here...).

    Now Mitch, try to understand english and learn the fact it is about the EXPERIENCED men who risk their lives day by day for us to be able to be free, and either address the points they are bringing to the table (in a polite and humble manner since you haven't served at all, just like I haven't) or quietly bow out of this thread.

    /end rant.
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    Whoa whoa I should say I've never served. Sorry if I made that impression. I just respect the ones who do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    For the sake of asking...because you guys HAVE the experience and know about this. Lets say you get a 5'11 185lb Viking-descendant "female" that can do all you can...I mean I know 1 out of a million, she also has done multiple Test or 19nor cycles and DHT derivatives...her sexual preferences may even be on our side...

    For the sake of asking...assuming she can even outbest the WEAKEST and SLOWEST MALE member of infantry...again a 1 in a MILLION chance...but would YOU have a problem with "her" serving in the infantry lines?
    See my above post.

    I think PT standards would be better suited if they were MOS dependant rather than Gender Dependant. If they can meet the standard I meet then that is perfectly fine, BUT the standard they meet now is not going to cut it.

    As I said before with the Airborne school comparison, that school used to be difficult (when my dad did it in the 50's) and now its easy as fuark. And the reason for that is because with a woman having to run such a slow time (in comparison) all of the runs are slower to accommodate the women in the class.
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but women are subject to compulsory service including combat in the Israeli military. Last I knew, no one doubted how bad ass the Mossad is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    See my above post.

    I think PT standards would be better suited if they were MOS dependant rather than Gender Dependant. If they can meet the standard I meet then that is perfectly fine, BUT the standard they meet now is not going to cut it.

    As I said before with the Airborne school comparison, that school used to be difficult (when my dad did it in the 50's) and now its easy as fuark. And the reason for that is because with a woman having to run such a slow time (in comparison) all of the runs are slower to accommodate the women in the class.
    If I may...my opinion is that Gender Equality must be BOTH WAYS then. Not only that they allow female members to serve on the infantry...but that they are THUS brought up to face the same standards and requirements male members are. In that case I think some of you experienced members would agree. The issue (if I understood correctly) would still be a matter of team cohesion and psychological requirements that are different for the male/female psyche.

    It is funny how our government and females ask gender equality and political correctness...and yet they are met with lower standards and expectations for these sort of things. I agree with you guys, again humbly, that it is about winning battles/fronts/wars and not about political correctness, if they want to serve the lines...at least meet the exact same standards a man does, not some "equivalence" for their gender.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but women are subject to compulsory service including combat in the Israeli military. Last I knew, no one doubted how bad ass the Mossad is.
    I don't know about that but if it is true you would have to take into account the inherent culture difference between us and them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    If I may...my opinion is that Gender Equality must be BOTH WAYS then. Not only that they allow female members to serve on the infantry...but that they are THUS brought up to face the same standards and requirements male members are. In that case I think some of you experienced members would agree. The issue (if I understood correctly) would still be a matter of team cohesion and psychological requirements that are different for the male/female psyche.

    It is funny how our government and females ask gender equality and political correctness...and yet they are met with lower standards and expectations for these sort of things. I agree with you guys, again humbly, that it is about winning battles/fronts/wars and not about political correctness, if they want to serve the lines...at least meet the exact same standards a man does, not some "equivalence" for their gender.
    I agree with this. Same job=same physical requirements. No excuses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    I don't know about that but if it is true you would have to take into account the inherent culture difference between us and them.
    Culture doesn't have any effect on their physical ability to perform. But they are held to exactly the same standards as the men and if they don't perform well enough they don't get sent to combat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post
    Thanks, this proves a point. We are not talking about gender (or race) discrimination (stab meant at mitch, no shame just making sense here...).

    Now Mitch, try to understand english and learn the fact it is about the EXPERIENCED men who risk their lives day by day for us to be able to be free, and either address the points they are bringing to the table (in a polite and humble manner since you haven't served at all, just like I haven't) or quietly bow out of this thread.

    /end rant.
    I addressed all points in my thread above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    If I may...my opinion is that Gender Equality must be BOTH WAYS then. Not only that they allow female members to serve on the infantry...but that they are THUS brought up to face the same standards and requirements male members are. In that case I think some of you experienced members would agree. The issue (if I understood correctly) would still be a matter of team cohesion and psychological requirements that are different for the male/female psyche.

    It is funny how our government and females ask gender equality and political correctness...and yet they are met with lower standards and expectations for these sort of things. I agree with you guys, again humbly, that it is about winning battles/fronts/wars and not about political correctness, if they want to serve the lines...at least meet the exact same standards a man does, not some "equivalence" for their gender.
    And I was going to add that but figured it had been appropriately addressed already.

    The fact remains that the dynamic of the unit would have to change, in fact anytime we (my unit) are doing anything and women are around we have to be careful about what we say because sexual harassment can get you dishonorably discharged. And our sense of humor is incredibly crude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cswalczakny View Post

    Culture doesn't have any effect on their physical ability to perform. But they are held to exactly the same standards as the men and if they don't perform well enough they don't get sent to combat
    That's what I was referring to as the culture difference being that women there (I assumed at least) would be held to the same standard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    And I was going to add that but figured it had been appropriately addressed already.

    The fact remains that the dynamic of the unit would have to change, in fact anytime we (my unit) are doing anything and women are around we have to be careful about what we say because sexual harassment can get you dishonorably discharged. And our sense of humor is incredibly crude.
    Lol I could see that being difficult
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post

    That's what I was referring to as the culture difference being that women there (I assumed at least) would be held to the same standard.
    Gotcha. Then yes id agree with you on that
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post

    I've addressed this in the thread above.
    Only thing that you've shown is that your opinion is completely ignorant and you continue to base YOUR opinion towards experienced veterans on the basis that WE are prejudice and/or "scared". All these veterans are experienced and basing their opinion on experience. What do you base your couch vision opinion from? Have you served in the military? NO ! Have you ever been accountable for another persons life in the situations these infantrymen face on a daily basis while deployed? NO! You have no footing to make your point valid. You dare tell veterans they are scared when they've served and fought ? You are not only looking ignorant you are acting like a coward.
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    Re: Why Gawd? Why?!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    I've addressed this in the thread above.
    The collection of posts is the thread. Therefore, what you should have said was that you addressed it in the post above.

    I feel like I'm in the movie Idiocracy right now. You fail to see the obvious points that were made.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post

    The collection of posts is the thread. Therefore, what you should have said was that you addressed it in the post above.

    I feel like I'm in the movie Idiocracy right now. You fail to see the obvious points that were made.

    - Valdez
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdez View Post
    The collection of posts is the thread. Therefore, what you should have said was that you addressed it in the post above.

    I feel like I'm in the movie Idiocracy right now. You fail to see the obvious points that were made.

    - Valdez
    sigh come on Valdez your better than this.we have all come to a common ground.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post

    sigh come on Valdez your better than this.we have all come to a common ground.
    I agree, we came to the common ground that you are an idiot and are literally talking out of your ass.

    At least that seems to be the general consensus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimbuick View Post
    I agree, we came to the common ground that you are an idiot and are literally talking out of your ass.

    At least that seems to be the general consensus.
    ...Must not add to this...must be a nice member...must have self control...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celorza View Post

    ...Must not add to this...must be a nice member...must have self control...


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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Only thing that you've shown is that your opinion is completely ignorant and you continue to base YOUR opinion towards experienced veterans on the basis that WE are prejudice and/or "scared". All these veterans are experienced and basing their opinion on experience. What do you base your couch vision opinion from? Have you served in the military? NO ! Have you ever been accountable for another persons life in the situations these infantrymen face on a daily basis while deployed? NO! You have no footing to make your point valid. You dare tell veterans they are scared when they've served and fought ? You are not only looking ignorant you are acting like a coward.
    your argument of experience could be used in many debates but still doesn't change anything whatsoever your simply hiding behind it.

    I get alot of you guys served and regardless of how this is presented will continue to look at it only one way which is fine and I get and understand why. However if she is an American and so should she choose she should have the right to defend her country in any branch she picks.the attacks,insults and negative reps are uncalled for and show a huge lack of ability to controls oneself when presented with a debate which could have been kept civil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    your argument of experience could be used in many debates but still doesn't change anything whatsoever your simply hiding behind it.

    I get alot of you guys served and regardless of how this is presented will continue to look at it only one way which is fine and I get and understand why. However if she is an American and so should she choose she should have the right to defend her country in any branch she picks.the attacks,insults and negative reps are uncalled for and show a huge lack of ability to controls oneself when presented with a debate which could have been kept civil.
    Ive been civil. Your opinion is based upon your ignorance. You have nothing to argue here as you have absolutely no experience on the matter. You cannot argue that fact. Not only that if you want to address me then first read all I've said on the matter from the beginning because you have made comments towards me that shows you've missed some things I've stated. If you feel so strongly on the matter then you should enlist and serve your country then you can see the issue with open eyes. It's a duty I believe every citizen should take part in. Like I said , you're not far from me ill get ya nice and hooked up at the recruiting station ;-)

    Others have made strong points to back up their opinions and have grounds to make said points. Granted some are harsher then others but its not a light an issue as you seem to take it. You're opinions are weak and have no basis to stand upon. Come with a strong valid point. Saying women have a right to serve is not valid since women already serve in the military. This Is a job specific argument.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Ive been civil. Your opinion is based upon your ignorance. You have nothing to argue here as you have absolutely no experience on the matter. You cannot argue that fact. Not only that if you want to address me then first read all I've said on the matter from the beginning because you have made comments towards me that shows you've missed some things I've stated. If you feel so strongly on the matter then you should enlist and serve your country then you can see the issue with open eyes. It's a duty I believe every citizen should take part in. Like I said , you're not far from me ill get ya nice and hooked up at the recruiting station ;-)
    5'7 , 140lb and an attitude problem...I would like to see him enroll, could make him or break him.

    Thanks for the experience shared here Mike! And also thanks for defending all that we love.
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    My sister just did a tour.. Shes a MP. Served as a correction officer in kandahar.. Shes has taken guys down plenty of times on her own..in basic she said drill sgts would matc her up aainst the guys because all the girls were pussies and she has dragged 180lb guy before..she could only do one pull up though.lol.. If a girl can meet the requirements then let her do what she wants.i realize that a lot of you guys dont like to hear what a non veteran has to say but the truth is some (by this i mean very few) that girls can do anything a guy could do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeg313 View Post
    Ive been civil. Your opinion is based upon your ignorance. You have nothing to argue here as you have absolutely no experience on the matter. You cannot argue that fact. Not only that if you want to address me then first read all I've said on the matter from the beginning because you have made comments towards me that shows you've missed some things I've stated. If you feel so strongly on the matter then you should enlist and serve your country then you can see the issue with open eyes. It's a duty I believe every citizen should take part in. Like I said , you're not far from me ill get ya nice and hooked up at the recruiting station ;-)
    I've already been through the recruitment process and came just a few days shy of going in before I got good news and didn't have to go in. I applaud you for your reply back in a normal manner I know how heated this debate gets people I had the same thing happen with a few vets old and a few younger guys a few weeks ago that ended in an agree to disagree at the end we hugged it out had a few beers and went back to talking sports.I'll leave this thread as is this isn't a debate that will end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by machorox123 View Post
    My sister just did a tour.. Shes a MP. Served as a correction officer in kandahar.. Shes has taken guys down plenty of times on her own..in basic she said drill sgts would matc her up aainst the guys because all the girls were pussies and she has dragged 180lb guy before..she could only do one pull up though.lol.. If a girl can meet the requirements then let her do what she wants.i realize that a lot of you guys dont like to hear what a non veteran has to say but the truth is some (by this i mean very few) that girls can do anything a guy could do.
    Your sister is obviously one of the few, but like you said she stated "all the girls are pussies". The majority can't hack it. And like others have stated that are in infantry , the physical requirement is the biggest issue but there's a whole lotta other arms on that beast to deal with, combat itself isn't the only mental challenge. If a women can handle it all physically and mentally then by all means. Im sure most men couldn't handle infantry from the stories my brothers that are all on disability tell me. It's easy to look at it from the outside and pass judgment without knowing how truly ugly the inside really is. Time will tell
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