Circumcision - To Circumcise or Not To Circumcise?

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    Circumcision - To Circumcise or Not To Circumcise?


    What's the big debate regarding this matter and why is there so much controversy?

    Do the opposing sides have valid, empirical evidence to support their views?

    What are your views? What are your experiences and what logic do you follow on this topic?

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    I know if u don't circumsize its easier to get diseases. And more work to keep it clean.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyBeast View Post
    I know if u don't circumsize its easier to get diseases. And more work to keep it clean.
    This is pretty much the jist of the argument.

    Oh and possibly missing out on some top shelf poon if you pull out your ardvark.
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    I think my little soldier looks good with his trimmed helmet and I know DAdams agrees.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpmartyr View Post
    I think my little soldier looks good with his trimmed helmet and I know DAdams agrees.
    I am not sure how I would like YOUR helmet trimmed!
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    If not for religious purpose it's moronic to do . Actually it's even more moronic to do it for religious purpose . It's supposed to be there. Leave the little guys shween alone . He will thank you later on in life.
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    This can be a very heated debate between people. For proponents there exist several agurment besides heelth benefits, mostly to do with social norms, cultrual and religious tradition and what other males in the family have had done.

    Personally I'm against circumcision for many reasons. I'll try my best to briefly describe them and stick to the main points.

    a) the proposed health benefits are quite over-stated.

    The argument that cleaning is easier and infections are avoided might carry some weight in parts of the world where running water, soap, general sanitation etc aren't readily available, but in countries like the US I find it to be pretty weak.

    If one looks at the severity of the possible infection one might get and the actual numbers involved, not just percentages of chance, it becomes rather clear that amputating a part of your penis is overkill.

    I'm intact, and I've never encountered any problems or discomfort that I can recall being anywhere near as memorable as say a throat or ear infection, and I certainly wouldn't advocate remove parts of either just to avoid a blocked ear for 2 days.

    If anything, the instances of complications arising out of botched circumcisions seems to outnumber both the numbers and in many cases exceeds the severity of the majority or problems a foreskin can cause.

    I had a a friend who suffered from phimosis, a condition that makes the foreskin tight and non-rectractable, and he was cured with a simple cream that he had to apply twice daily for 5 days. No surgery was needed, and in developed countries this form of medicine is cheap and readily available, making circumcision a case of cutting of a foot to cure an ingrowing toenail.

    Much has been said about the HIV transmition rate being double for those uncut, but there's very little emperical evidence to support this, and the numbers of HIV and AIDS cases in the US and Europe don't support it either. The US is the most heavily circumcised developed country in the world, yet also has the highest instances of HIV contraction among non-drug related cases. In Europe on the other hand, where circumcision is extremely rare outside of the Jewish and Muslim populations, the insatnces are very fewer. This illustrates that the best prevention is a condom, and telling people that they are better protected against HIV by being circumcised actually puts them at greater risk because they felsely believe they need not take any precaution and so are at even greater risk. Kinda shooting themselves in the foot with that one.

    b) I find it to be a Human Rights issue

    There's no easy way to say this without upsetting different groups of people, but I firmly believe on'es own body is entirely their own and no one, not even parents, should have the right to alter it for aesthetic, cultural or religious purposes. Unless a child requires a circumcision to cure an ailment which can't be cured in any other way, I think it's wrong, and several European countries are now banning neo-natal circumcision that is not an absolute medical necessity.

    I have friends and extended family that are Jewish, and we have discussed this a few times. I udnerstand being Jewish in the religious sense requires one to be circumcised, but there has to come a point where religion cannot dictate another person's right over their own body. Raise a child in your faith, tell him about the ritual and when he is old enough to udnerstand the physical ramifications of the procedure let him decide for himself. I've met Jewish people who have said they won't circumcise their child and don't think of any other Jews as 'less Jewish' if they aren't circumcised either.

    c) there exist certain drawbacks

    The removal of the foreskin also removes multiple nerve endings and sensation one gets during sex and masturbation. I've met people who had the operation done later in life and agree that after it heals they tend to feel a lot less sensation, not that it stops them from enjoying sex or achievng orgasm obviously, but it does make a noticable difference.

    To me, ANY lessening of the pleasure of sex and self-gratification MUST be a personal choice and not one forced upon you at an age you can't consent.

    d) the historicity behind circumcision

    Circumcision can be dated as far back as the Egyptians, who performed it as a ritual because they believed that like a snake shedding it's skin, 'shedding' your foreskin made you stronger. This of course isn't the case.

    Jews performed it as a rite of passage and cultural identification for their kinship, much like a tatoo, as was madated by the Bible. Being a religious act, I think people should decide for themselves whether or not they want to be part of the religion and if they agree that this action is necessary.

    During the early 20th century in the US, Kellog (that guy from the cereals) came up with circumcision as a means to prevent all sort of ailments in young boys, inclduing and not limited to madness and blindness, and the purpose of it was to prevent boys from masturbating as this was seen as the cause of a wide array of health issues, not to mention a big social no-no, and with the removal of the foreskin, it becomes harder for one to masturbate as often as with one, ergo cutting down on what was thought to be a dangerous behavior. Again, we know now that mastrubation isn't only safe, it's actually a healthy thing.

    Anyway, there's tons more to be said on the subject, both in favor of and against the practise, I just thought I'd try to briefly give my main points of 'contention' on the issue. Hopefully this won't start a fight, and we can have a discussion without people resorting to personal attacks and various other non-constructive argumentation.
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    All I gots to say is... glad my parents did it before I could remember.

    Just think if most of the US were uncircumcised... we we have a lot more unsatisfied women since there is so much more sensation.... one pump chumps would be prevalent.

    For God sakes.. who wants a US full of pissed off women?
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    my son isn't circumcised and he is fine and having no issues.

    it's not dirty, it's not hard to clean.. you aren't supposed to pull it back.. it will naturally retract in time.. you clean it like you would your fingertip.

    also, circumcision causes loss of sensitivity from the head always being exposed and stimulated.

    men that have had issues in the past were told to retract their foreskin, which causes a lot of damage and chronic infection.. which is why they were circumcised later in life.

    I don't think it's necessary.. and all of my future sons will be intact as well :] just how God made them.

    circumcision is the cause of curved penises, tight painful erections, etc. uhm. ew?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    All I gots to say is... glad my parents did it before I could remember.

    Just think if most of the US were uncircumcised... we we have a lot more unsatisfied women since there is so much more sensation.... one pump chumps would be prevalent.

    For God sakes.. who wants a US full of pissed off women?
    But there isn't any evidence to suggest this. In fact, a quick google search shows that British men last the longest in bed (http://ezinearticles.com/?Study-Prov...Bed&id=3219952), and we have a relatively low rate of circumcision (less than 20% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevale...s_than_20.25_4).

    This study claims Brits last (on average) 10 minutes whereas Americans last 8, and the least proficient are actually Turks, a country which is overwhelmingly circumcised (they 're a Muslim country).
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    You are actually trying to argue a point of something I could care less about if you couldn't tell by my posts. I like my junk cut... you go ahead and keep your aardvark... it impacts me none. The idea that people crusade on this is more than comical. Cut guys will be thrilled their junk is cut. Uncut guys will say it's the best, up until about age 16 in the US when they go to lay down their first piece or about to get a mouth party and little suzy snowflake all of the sudden has homework to do. Then they go all Matt McNamara from Nip/Tuck on themselves!

    As and aside... you just pointed me to ezin... which is an op-ed site... ironically of which concludes nothing on point other than brits swill more alcohol.

    I just searched up and down for a real peer review study in reference to this and found nothing published in the study databases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    But there isn't any evidence to suggest this. In fact, a quick google search shows that British men last the longest in bed (http://ezinearticles.com/?Study-Prov...Bed&id=3219952), and we have a relatively low rate of circumcision (less than 20% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevale...s_than_20.25_4).

    This study claims Brits last (on average) 10 minutes whereas Americans last 8, and the least proficient are actually Turks, a country which is overwhelmingly circumcised (they 're a Muslim country).
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    well whoever turns down giving oral due to foreskin is obviously a stuck up b*tch.. a real woman wouldn't care, assuming it was somebody she liked or cared for.. I'm American and it wouldn't bother me one bit if my husband wasn't "cut", but he is..

    a lot of women these days aren't having their sons circumcised.. because it is a cosmetic procedure.

    while you're at it, why don't you slice off your daughter's labia.. it's the same concept.. unnecessary torture to somebody who has no say.
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    Who said anything about what type of person they are? This isnt about finding that perfect women. It's about missing out on some tang as a teen.

    Your attempt at demonizing me is comical. Nothing like a good hyperbole to attempt to make your point?

    Next thing you will say is that moms aren't having their kids vaccinated!

    Quote Originally Posted by mls51112 View Post
    well whoever turns down giving oral due to foreskin is obviously a stuck up b*tch.. a real woman wouldn't care, assuming it was somebody she liked or cared for.. I'm American and it wouldn't bother me one bit if my husband wasn't "cut", but he is..

    a lot of women these days aren't having their sons circumcised.. because it is a cosmetic procedure.

    while you're at it, why don't you slice off your daughter's labia.. it's the same concept.. unnecessary torture to somebody who has no say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982
    Who said anything about what type of person they are? This isnt about finding that perfect women. It's about missing out on some tang as a teen.

    Your attempt at demonizing me is comical. Nothing like a good hyperbole to attempt to make your point?

    Next thing you will say is that moms aren't having their kids vaccinated!
    I'm not having mine vaccinated.. and some women aren't ;]
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    Quote Originally Posted by mls51112 View Post
    I'm not having mine vaccinated.. and some women aren't ;]
    I know my first I Told Ya post if Rubella makes a comeback!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    you go ahead and keep your aardvark... it impacts me none. The idea that people crusade on this is more than comical. Cut guys will be thrilled their junk is cut. Uncut guys will say it's the best, up until about age 16 in the US when they go to lay down their first piece or about to get a mouth party and little suzy snowflake all of the sudden has homework to do. Then they go all Matt McNamara from Nip/Tuck on themselves!
    Why all the hostility? Insulting the natural male body and bragging about how boys are shamed by clueless girls into amputating a perfectly healthy and vital part of their anatomy isn't exactly a ringing endorsement in favour of circumcision.

    Should young teenage girls also feel ashamed of their natural breasts because most American teen males only have fake celebrity and porn-star breasts as a point of reference?

    I thought this was a discussion, not an attempt to denigrate other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    As and aside... you just pointed me to ezin... which is an op-ed site... ironically of which concludes nothing on point other than brits swill more alcohol.
    I can't speak for the veracity of the report, I speficially stated I made "a quick google" search, but again, why the hostility and insult towards British people? Even if you only say it in jest, it doesn't come off as such when you make towards someone who's British.

    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I just searched up and down for a real peer review study in reference to this and found nothing published in the study databases.
    Which is exactly what I said in response to your first post, that there doesn't exist any evidence that cut guys last longer. Besides, YOU made the claim that they do, ergo it's up to YOU to provide evidence that subastantiates the claim and not for me to find evidence that directly refutes it.

    Anyway, I genuinely can't tell if you 're just having an honest laugh and being light-hearted or if you 're really being a bit nasty for no reason when no one else here has been. If it's the former, I apologise for not properly gauging your tone, if it's the latter then I think I'll refrain from responding again as I honestly don't see the point if you really do hold those beliefs you stated in the beginning of your last post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982

    I know my first I Told Ya post if Rubella makes a comeback!
    you know the MMR vaccine has been linked to Autism? I'll vaccinate my son when the government separates them so I don't have to give my baby 48 Chinese engineered vaccines before the age of 2.
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    I was circumcised as a baby and am thinking of growing the skin back..according to that episode of Pen and Teller you can grow it back. I have no reason to be circumcised I don't follow any Abrahamic beliefs.
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    Alot of men get their sons circumcised because they want their sons to look like they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    Alot of men get their sons circumcised because they want their sons to look like they do.
    Isnt that selfish?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mls51112 View Post
    you know the MMR vaccine has been linked to Autism? I'll vaccinate my son when the government separates them so I don't have to give my baby 48 Chinese engineered vaccines before the age of 2.
    This is completely absurdly false. There is not one piece of evidence in this entire world of ours that shows any link to autism. The development of MMR happened to fall in line with the expansion of the term autism. There is alot of conjecture and politicizing by a damn playboy chick (Jenny McCarthy). You will not find one peer reviewed journal, study, anything that makes a definitive link.

    Now on the other hand, after the vaccines squashed quite a few diseases and that dumb bitch started demonizing vaccines, preventable deaths have raised 10 fold as per the CDC.

    It is your child, so rear them how you wish... even though you compared me to a torturer.

    Here is data mined directly from the CDC. http://www.jennymccarthybodycount.co...ount/Home.html
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    Trust me, it is in jest. Again, I really dont care what you or anyone does. The way people are so quick to villify one who doesnt do exactly what they believe is comical to me.

    I love brits... ask Ben... he will vouch for me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyperion View Post
    Why all the hostility? Insulting the natural male body and bragging about how boys are shamed by clueless girls into amputating a perfectly healthy and vital part of their anatomy isn't exactly a ringing endorsement in favour of circumcision.

    Should young teenage girls also feel ashamed of their natural breasts because most American teen males only have fake celebrity and porn-star breasts as a point of reference?

    I thought this was a discussion, not an attempt to denigrate other people.



    I can't speak for the veracity of the report, I speficially stated I made "a quick google" search, but again, why the hostility and insult towards British people? Even if you only say it in jest, it doesn't come off as such when you make towards someone who's British.



    Which is exactly what I said in response to your first post, that there doesn't exist any evidence that cut guys last longer. Besides, YOU made the claim that they do, ergo it's up to YOU to provide evidence that subastantiates the claim and not for me to find evidence that directly refutes it.

    Anyway, I genuinely can't tell if you 're just having an honest laugh and being light-hearted or if you 're really being a bit nasty for no reason when no one else here has been. If it's the former, I apologise for not properly gauging your tone, if it's the latter then I think I'll refrain from responding again as I honestly don't see the point if you really do hold those beliefs you stated in the beginning of your last post.
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    actually, I know first hand.. you can post as many links as you want, haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mls51112 View Post
    actually, I know first hand.. you can post as many links as you want, haha.
    Know your "Enemy" (no, not serious)... you are not the only person experiencing the trials of autism. Experiencing something doesn't make one an expert on a subject though. That's why there are the very people who are experts in the field.

    Autism is in my family as well, but genetics play the role in autism. But I know there needs to be a villain, which is what mccarthy jumped all over. Especially considering the very idea was debunked time and time again. The problem is Autism is a diagnosis of exclusion, and in the last 15 years the definition has increased dramatically.

    Not really the thread for this though (I know, I skewed it), so if you wish to continue we can start a new thread if you wish. If not, no big deal.
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    yeah.. I'm not going to argue about it :]
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    Quote Originally Posted by vidapreta View Post
    Alot of men get their sons circumcised because they want their sons to look like they do.
    That's why my son is.....plus if he wasn't cut and he had questions or problems, I wouldn't be able to relate or give advise. Selfish? Maybe....but within reason I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daddyjaws

    That's why my son is.....plus if he wasn't cut and he had questions or problems, I wouldn't be able to relate or give advise. Selfish? Maybe....but within reason I think.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    my hubby is cut and my son isn't.. obviously if he has issues, we'll take him to a doctor like any parent would/should.. so that isn't a valid reason, imo. use logic and facts.. read up on foreskin restoration.. some men are restoring theirs because of loss of sensitivity due to circumcision.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerickVonD View Post
    Isnt that selfish?
    I'm just throwing it out there. No one mentioned that and I definitely believe that it is a deciding factor in alot of men.
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    He'll be fine

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    How is it harder to flap it if ur circumsized that's dumb. And I.last longer than ten minutes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyBeast View Post
    How is it harder to flap it if ur circumsized that's dumb.
    Some men who are cut report getting chaffed on the head/tip (the glands) if they use their bare hand without any form of lubrication. This won't deter them from masturbating alltogether, but it can effect the frequency and multitude of masturbations during the same time-frame..

    Un-cut guys don't have this problem. The foreskin covers and protects the glands from the roughness of one's palm. The foreskin is actually a protective membrane that contains thousands of nerve endings which add sensation and increase stimulation, making it more pleasurable and more akin to the human vagina which is also a membrane.

    Think of human lips. On the inside of your mouth, your lips, also a membrane, are much softer and hence more sensitive, likewise the penis glands have more sensation to them when they are constantly covered and not exposed to coarse clothing and a bare hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by MightyBeast View Post
    And I.last longer than ten minutes.
    So do I, much longer infact, The difference is no one who's natural is making the claim that if they last longer it's because they 're uncut, it's cut guys who proclaim their bedroom-proficiency because of the fact that they 're cut.

    Personally I doubt it makes any discernible difference. It's up to the person, how healthy he is, how experienced, how excited and how much self-control he can exercise during sex.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mls51112
    well whoever turns down giving oral due to foreskin is obviously a stuck up b*tch.. a real woman wouldn't care, assuming it was somebody she liked or cared for.. I'm American and it wouldn't bother me one bit if my husband wasn't "cut", but he is..

    a lot of women these days aren't having their sons circumcised.. because it is a cosmetic procedure.

    while you're at it, why don't you slice off your daughter's labia.. it's the same concept.. unnecessary torture to somebody who has no say.

    That's a bit much. Are we really at the point where we're comparing circumcision to torture? Really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayStang View Post
    That's a bit much. Are we really at the point where we're comparing circumcision to torture? Really?
    Obviously the end result and the intent aren't the same, but the procedure is similar in nature in that it involves modifying a healthy part of an unconsenting person's body without a medical necessity.

    You could make a much stronger case for removing a testicle from newborn boys than their foreskin. Testicular cancer is one of the most common forms of all cancer and depending on it's detection it can ultimately lead to death. I'm unaware of any foreskin complication that would elad to death in a developed country.

    Removing a testicle at a young age can be justified in the exact same wasy circumcision is;
    1) the kids won't remember it
    2) they won't miss the testcile since they never knew they had an extra one
    3) it effectively decreases cancer risk by 50%
    4) other boys will also be like that so he will fit in

    And so on...

    But I think it would be wrong to do so. A person shoudl choose for themselves which parts of their own body they are willing to forego in order to protect themselves and prevent possible medical issues. Others imposing it on you is my greatest objection to the practise.
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    The twenty-something wisdom is strong in here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The twenty-something wisdom is strong in here.
    Glad someone else see's this.

    So much life experience.

    Glad we can make factual statements without any real proof.

    And seriously Hyper... removing the testicles is a better idea. Your argument just went out the window. Last time I checked the foreskin didn't serve up critical hormones to a males development. Maybe something special has happened in this new hipster world I missed.

    And mls, check back into your biology class for a bit. Severed nerves just don't magically grow back because you are stretching on your junk.

    I too have chalked up a lot of this thread to just not knowing better, but serve up some facts and studies if you are going to make such statements. Essentially telling a dad to read up on foreskin restoration for his kid is absurd. That is torturous. Considering a newborns nervous system is so immature that the pain is seldom felt, now you want someone to have em tugging on their kids junk? Where is the logic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    The twenty-something wisdom is strong in here.
    As opposed to middle-aged wisdom comprised exclusively of sarcastic quips without any substantive argumentation.

    I have been nothing but civil towards people on this thread in the hopes that we could have a meanigfull discussion, and in return people have been rude, arrogant, dismissive without argument and plain old patronising, as if being 20 years older than someone automatically makes you right on what is a moral issue, or at least is from my point of view and the stand-point from which I'm arguing from.

    I'm out. Rest easy in knowing you can make a dissenting opinion go away by being discourteous and resorting to ad hominem attacks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    And seriously Hyper... removing the testicles is a better idea. Your argument just went out the window.
    Nice attempt at a straw-man argument. I specifically stated that I find both ideas wrong and ill-advised, the point is, if you even bothered to actually understand what I wrote, is that from a MEDICAL stand-point in the prevention of a high-risk form of cancer, orchidectomy would be no-more illogical than circumcision when it comes to preventing foreskin ailments.
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    I never said to restore your son's foreskin.. I said that circumcised men have been doing it.. maybe you should thoroughly read posts before replying.

    I'm no expert, but I am a mother.. which puts me halfway there ;] we all know what's best for our own children.. and I will leave it at that.
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