Okay... this is almost painful to read.
- 02-17-2003, 12:59 PM
Okay... this is almost painful to read.
Why oh why must they write this ****.
When are athletes going to realize that although Type II fiber is more responsive to anabolic hormones its JUST as responsive to catabolic hormones. Studies like this are CRAP until they can be performed on a much larger basis over a period of at least a year. Of course you're going to see results in eight weeks. you dont have to be captian ****ing obvious or have a PHd to know this.
If our bodies worked the way this study (or the author hopefully implies) you would have 500lb humans running around who could bench press 2000 lbs and squat 3000 lbs.
We could become so muscular that our skeletal structure could no longer support the mass.
Why do people dance around the obvious? Our internal organs... skeletons.. etc.. were desinged to support a 150 to 200lb (at best) bodyweight consisting of a mixed amount of type I and type II fiber. Few ethnicities may support more (i.e some Nordic breeds) and some MUCH less (some asian/ or pygmie breeds). But it took extreme differences in environmental factors to produce these differences. (i.e. HUGE calorie intake due to high fat meets in Nordic climes... differences in hunting patterns.. climate differences.)
This is a product of natural selection... we evolved as hunter gatherers. Are you going to tell me that high intensity training is going to overcome a few hundred thousand years of fine tuning? PUUULLEEESSEEE.
ROFL can you imagine. A 250lbs hunter gatherer with a larger percaentage of Type II tissue. You'd last a ****ING week on the open plain. Not only would the EXTREMELY limited calorie intake IMMEDIATELY strip off all that excess and unneeded muscle tissue... You would starve trying to maintain it. Then after you died due to being ourtun by some slow ass tiger (yes they are slow runners in distances) Your tribe would probably eats whats left because your calorie value would be immense.
the constant running,, hunting, chasing and being chased would create a catabolic environment that would torture you.
Your joints would decay twice as fast due to excessive wear from the extra load.
What bodybuilders and wieght lifeters dont see.. is that they are their own product of natural selection. The ones who tend to succeed due to results over time ARE genetically blessed to benefit from wieght training. The stick with it and tend to see more results over time. You KEEP growing... its slows down to almost a standstill after some time... but with great trainign and diet you can keep the growth artificially elevated for quite some time.
How many of you have ten friends who quit working out because high intensity training just didnt yield the results they hoped for for every one who stuck with it because he saw consistent gains in muscularity. Because the average person IS NOT going to get that muscular from natural training.
FOR EVERY ONE OF YOU who can bench 375 lbs naturally and did it after only a few years of training there are a 1000 humans out there that will NEVER bench 315lbs after ten years of training. Most athletes fail to see this because they want to think their results are a product of their intensity or their uber training program developed in the back woods of Bulgaria by some gay monk. They fail to see it because they think the average person doesnt try hard enough... and/or all their friends are athletes comaparing their 375lb bench presses. They fail to see it because they think they are "better". genetically they are...
Gyms bring all the freaks/exceptions/genetically gifted peeps together. thats why it may SEEM like its natural to have all this muscle and endurance. IT ISNT. You see all these guys in the gym with great bodies, you hang out and talk... blah blah blah. But there are so many out there who just WILL not get half the reults over time that you do.
Most of you on this board are the EXCEPTION NOT the rule.
Even those of you who may "think" you're suffering because you're still struggling with 315. you're not. Dont you realize how much force you'r producing... you not even using all you;re muscle... MAYBE 60-70% and you pushing over 300lbs.
If you guys had any idea how long it takes the average person to get to ths kind of muscularity some of you have... you'd cry. Most could NEVER do it. Their bodies will just not produce the proper hormone ratios.
BTW to whatever genius wrote this study... ANDROGENIC RECEPTOR DENSITY IS A PRODUCT OF ESTROGEN. WHY DO YOU THINK WOMEN DEVELOP ANDROGENIC SIDE EFECTS AT EXPONENTIAL RATES RELATIVE TO MEN.
Okay rant off.
- 02-18-2003, 12:48 AM
- 02-19-2003, 12:15 AM
First, increasing androgen receptors will not do ****. DNA controls things past that..so you would have to tinker there also.
Second, I agree..there is NO proof of increasing or decreasing type 1 or 2 muscle fibers in ANY scientific study. Yet BBers think they know more than science..ok..lol.
Lastly, I DO believe that most in the gym fail to gain a decent amount of muscle because of NUTRITION, and not keeping a proper workout log. I can say this because I was stuck at a 205 bench press for 3 years when I started lifting. Once I got my diet in check and began keeping a setailed workout log, I got past that weight, and made steady progress. Saying it is just genetics..is a cop out to a degree.
02-19-2003, 11:41 AM
Im not saying its just genetics... but I think all else being equal they are very much the limiting factor..
I cant count the times Ive see some dumb ass in the gym doing EVERYTHING wrong and he grows like a ****ing weed.... on the other hand you have guys who have their diet and training down to a science and gaining a pound for them is like trying to win the nobel prize.
Yes... there are a lot of lazy people who will never progress only because they are lazy... I really wasnt referring ot them... I was referring to people who actually bust their ass in the gym and just dont see results. And there are plenty of them.
02-19-2003, 12:11 PM
There are so many factors. I am not one who can grow like a weed. I have to keep protein high, and watch overtraining. I have seen many, with the correct workout change..begin to grow like a weed. I have seen people (I was one of them) who began to grow ONLY after learning to stuff my face and not worry about losing my pretty abs. I do not think there are many TRUE nonresponders to weight training. Can everybody look like Ronnie Coleman..not a hope in hell. Can everybody look like they weight train..sure. Some may be stuck with the "Men's Health" look, due to their frame, and bone structure. I am one of them. With a 31" waist at 6'5" and narrow shoulder structure, I can look athletic, and I can look "well built" however, I will never LOOK like a goliath. Even at 283 pounds, I do not resemble a pro bodybuiler, I look more like a tall Mens Health model who is solid. That is what my genetics will dictate, that is what I have unless I decide to juice year round or never go off. The first 3-4 years of my training, I would have agreed with you 100%, that some of us (and I would have meant myself) will NEVER gain muscle. 60+ pounds later, I will say, I was wrong. I doubt everybody can have a 500 pound bench, I know I probably never will, HOWEVER, we can all change our bodies and make ourselves stronger, it just takes getting all the facors straight.
That is where logs are SO critical for at least a year. Experiment. Train chest twice a week for 2 months or so,,and see how you progressed. Now change it to once a week for 2 months..how did that do? Try volume, try HIT, without a log, you will NEVER know what will work and hat will not. Same goes for food. try 500 extra calories for a month, what happens? Jack protein up 100 grams..now what? For myself, I now know what works for my body. I know how quickly I recover, enhanced and non-enhanced. Once you have the "keys" to your body, I can gaurantee progress. Perhaps not to the degree you want, but progress nonetheless.
02-19-2003, 12:37 PM
bump to that, and to the whole thing, well said WD... pretty much the same... people freak out when I tell them how much I weigh, they can see that I'm relatively tall (6'4"), can see I'm in good shape etc, but can't see why I'm not Colemanesque at 270 lbs... the reality though, is that everyone is capable of looking very fit and healthy IMO... more fat looks worse on the shorter fella, whereas less muscle lb for lb has a much greater effect on his appearance than that of a taller fella, but these differences don't mean much if a person applies him/herself... they WILL look much different after a year of applied nutrition/training.... and honestly the only people I've seen who grow like weeds with no effort, look like **** because they don't know enough to train properly, and so are built funny... it comes so easily they've never studied the proper approach. Just my thoughts.Originally posted by wardog
Some may be stuck with the "Men's Health" look, due to their frame, and bone structure. I am one of them. With a 31" waist at 6'5" and narrow shoulder structure, I can look athletic, and I can look "well built" however, I will never LOOK like a goliath. Even at 283 pounds, I do not resemble a pro bodybuiler, I look more like a tall Mens Health model who is solid. That is what my genetics will dictate, that is what I have unless I decide to juice year round or never go off.