Who owns a gun?
- 10-03-2004, 08:20 AM
Who owns a gun?
I don't actually. In fact i've been very much against them. And I have very limited knowledge of them. I am interested in buying one for protection...
This kid convinced me I (and everyone) should own one.
Where to buy one for a good price?
What models to consider?My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
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- 10-03-2004, 09:23 AM
Go to a gun show to get one just research it and you can get a good deal. I personally like Glock mine is not pretty but I can rip the center of a target out at 50 feet. H&K is an outstanding gunmaker also but you will pay. I am buying a Beretta this weekend so I will let you know how i like that one too.
- 10-03-2004, 09:39 AM
Sigs are my personal favorite. Glok, Kimber, Springfields, & H&Ks are good choices as well.
10-03-2004, 09:41 AM
If it is just for your house, then just get a cheap 12 gauge shotgun. dont even have to really aim. i have a shotgun and an AK-47.
10-03-2004, 09:43 AM
Gun show... hmm.... Interesting
What to do about pricing...? I read a couple gun magazine websites.
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10-03-2004, 09:45 AM
Yep - I was told that on the shotgun is the best house-defense weapon.Originally Posted by goldylight
I think I want an Uzi / M14 for trips to the grocery store...
* What is the process like to get a firearm - and carry around? (concealed weapon permit) (I'm really in the dark on weapons)
Last edited by Deoudes59; 10-03-2004 at 10:09 AM.
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10-03-2004, 09:56 AM
You should just be able to go down to your town/city hall and pick up a concealed weapons permit. Fill it out and send it in for approval.Originally Posted by Deoudes59
10-03-2004, 10:02 AM
depending on your state - i think concealed takes around 3-6 months to get. rifles and shotguns, you walk out of the store in 15 minutes as long as you dont have a criminal record.
10-03-2004, 10:52 AM
Where to start? From the south so I have enough guns to take over Cuba.
I am a hunter so my favorite is my 7mm browning semi-automatic rifle with a 50mm scope, easily deadly at 500 yards, try to do that with your glock :-)
I also have a really light browning youth model 20 gauge shotgun I love, deadly on squirrels, ducks, pheasants, doves, etc and easy to cary around (and beautiful). Also to protect your house nothing says ****off like a shotgun, you might miss with a pistol or rifle but you will kill someone dead with a scatter gun.
10-03-2004, 01:09 PM
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Ironic, I'm looking into buying my first handgun as well.
10-03-2004, 01:46 PM
It's been said already, but for home defense, if that's what you guys are looking for, get a shotgun. Handguns are awesome for shooting and defense on the go, but a lot of states don't let you carry. Imagine waking up in the middle of the night with blurry eyes trying to aim a handgun. A shotgun will tear through anything you point it at without much aiming needed, and it's often said that the sound of just pumping a shell into the chamber is enough to scare the **** out of someone.Originally Posted by Beelzebub
10-03-2004, 01:53 PM
Another thing to keep in mind is your line of fire - are you in an apartment? Do you have kids or someone else living in the house with you? A magnum will go through drywall easily from what I've heard. I've heard birdshot will not easily penetrate drywall though, but will still take someone down with a clear shot - is this true?
I've got a S&W .40 pistol now, but thinking more about a shotgun, I think it would be safer with kids around.
10-03-2004, 02:52 PM
thanks for the discussion bros, keep it coming
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10-03-2004, 03:09 PM
You are right, a big 45 handgun would go through a couple walls, birdshot will too but not as much and would loose velocity, some will get stopped, etc. Safer in general.
My grandmother once stopped a robber with a 12-gauge pump action shotgun, she said he got really cooperative when she put a shell in the chamber, that sound sends a big message.
10-03-2004, 04:16 PM
Go to a firing range and shoot a few to see what feel you like.
Nothing quite like killing you dinner.
10-03-2004, 07:20 PM
yeah shotgun is a good choice for home defense. I woudl use 00 buck though and not bird shot if he is far enough away or turns his back to you down a hall or so you might just piss someone off. However seeing 3 feet of fire fly out of a barrel is quite intimidating. I keep my glock by the bed and the shotgun loaded with 00 right inside the closet door. So if I get woken up with some poor bastard in the room I got 10 chances to hit him with a .40 cal loaded with hydroshocks and if he is loud enogh to wake me up in another part of the house then the shotgun gets broken out.
I got my conceal carry permit about 6 months ago. TN makes you take a class and then you have to apply with the state after that. Took me about 6 weeks and I can carry any weapon and how ever many I want in plane sight or concealed if I choose.
10-03-2004, 07:28 PM
The power of a shotgun cannot be challenged at close range. A pistol pumps out 1 lead slug at one time, a 12 gauge pumps out about 20 lead pellets. One properly placed shotgun blast would probably have more stopping power than emptying an entire pistol magazine. So for home defense, its pretty intimidating.
10-03-2004, 09:55 PM
Damn, it must be a real challenge to kill non-moving animals with a 500 yard scope.Originally Posted by cr4ytonic
And if you can't hit a person a couple of feet away from you with a handgun, then maybe you should spend a little more time at the shooting range and stop blowing up small animals with your "scatter gun".
10-03-2004, 10:12 PM
I'm good with a handgun (infantry school), so of course I own two .40's (one Glock, one HK usp).. I'd like to get a Binelli(sp) tactical shotgun oneday..
10-03-2004, 10:18 PM
OO those are big pellets. Might as go with some buck shot slugs I have a Beretta Tekneys
12gauge keep it loaded with nitro steel shot.Then i have acouple other "Toys" that are
stragicly placed around the house!
10-03-2004, 10:22 PM
Is that the tactial 45 usp? You should check out Benelli's new limited edition tactical shotgun. It's the sickest shotgun I've ever seen. I may pick one up for $1500.Originally Posted by bigpetefox
10-03-2004, 10:24 PM
That's insane. It's a right to be able to carry a weapon. I had mine within a week or so. I just had to get the chief of police to sign it.Originally Posted by goldylight
10-03-2004, 10:57 PM
Pete, what makes you prefer .40 over other calibers?
10-03-2004, 11:06 PM
Mine is the .40 S&W compact model.. The Glock is the 23 model, compact FBI issue..Originally Posted by NPursuit
I'll have to move out your way to get my carry permit..
10-03-2004, 11:24 PM
Mine is a Glock 27. I love it. I am about to buy the Beretta 9000s 9mm I hope it is as reliable as my glock.Originally Posted by bigpetefox
NP to answer your question about .40 cal or bigger. I personally carry a weapon of a bigger caliber because it has much more knock down power when compared to a say a 9mm. 9mm rounds travel at a much higher velocity than a 40 or 45 round. What could possibly happen is if you shoot an intruder with a 9mm the rounds could pass right through and never knock them off their feet. This could be a problem if it is some dope head in your house that probably thinks that was real ****ty of you to shoot him and still comes after you. A 40 cal on the other hand if you plant one in him it will probably not pass through and all that inertia will be transfered into his body and knock him off his feet. This changes an intruders psyc pretty significantly and he has to think for a second before he gets up. Always need somehting .357 or bigger when you need to neutralize a threat
10-04-2004, 12:12 AM
That was when i lived in Long Island(new york).Originally Posted by NPursuit
10-04-2004, 12:14 AM
I never said non-moving, and never said I could not hit something a few feet away with a handgun. Why are you trolling?Originally Posted by Rock Lee
10-04-2004, 12:30 AM
Unless you have one of those extensions, I don't know how you do it. I wanted to get the G23 or even the G27, but they were both felt too small and awkward in my hand. So I ended up getting the full-sized G22.Originally Posted by bigpetefox
10-04-2004, 02:59 AM
10-04-2004, 12:04 PM
I wasn't aware I asked a question about calibers?Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
10-04-2004, 12:08 PM
It can't be easy living in the repuplic of massachusetts. I've been wanting the H&K tac .45 for a long time now. I'm stuck between picking that up or the new benelli tac m104. The fact that the H&K tac .45 comes with a threaded barrel makes it appealing.Originally Posted by bigpetefox
10-04-2004, 03:01 PM
My bad NP I meant Rock LeeOriginally Posted by NPursuit
10-04-2004, 03:22 PM
I have a Glock 21 (.45ACP). It has more than enough knockdown power, but the gun requires a large hand to shoot it comfortably. Before you buy a handgun, go to a shooting range and rent one. That way you can find out what gun works best for you. Then PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. A gun in the hands of someone that can't shoot is can be worse than being without. It would suck to hit the wrong person. Also, research gun safety FIRST or better yet take a class on it.
If your only reason is home defense get a pump shotgun. They are fairly cheap, require very little accuracy, and the sound of a round being chambered is extremely effective at alerting a burglar that you are armed.
10-04-2004, 03:37 PM
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have a 12ga pump action shotgun looking to put a pistol grip on it and saw it off...however, my first line of home defense is my Dobermans...they are there protecting the homestead whenever I am not 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, plus I can take them in public and people know better to even come close to anyone I am with, you really cant wave a gun around in public.
10-04-2004, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by 5111
A shotgun still needs to be aimed carefully. To say it requires very little accuracy is feeding the myth. The average spread for a short barrelled shotgun is about an inch a yard. So at 20ft, its only a 7in spread.
10-04-2004, 03:54 PM
Okay, I guess that I should have been a little clearer...Compared with a pistol, it requires much less accuracy.Originally Posted by MarcusG
10-04-2004, 04:00 PM
It's not. My friends Dad wanted to get a shot gun but the town police chief gave him a hard time about it so he ended up no getting one. There was a story in a local paper about a guy who moved here from out of state. He had guns and when to the local police station to see what he needed to do to register. They arrested him and took his guns. They are putting up more and more red tape if you want a gun.It can't be easy living in the repuplic of massachusetts. I've been wanting the H&K tac .45 for a long time now. I'm stuck between picking that up or the new benelli tac m104. The fact that the H&K tac .45 comes with a threaded barrel makes it appealing.
10-04-2004, 04:02 PM
Concord Resident Petitions Supreme Court
Second Amendment Guarantees an
Individual Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Fourteenth Amendment Makes the
Second Amendment Applicable to the States
P R E S S R E L E A S E
For Immediate Release
For more information:
Alec S. Costerus
Click here for .pdf version
CONCORD, MASSACHUSETTS (June 27, 2002) -- Two hundred twenty-seven years ago, British troops advanced on Concord to confiscate their arms. As we know, at the North Bridge, the embattled farmers stood to defend their freedoms and drove the British aggressors back to their fort in Boston.
More than three years ago, Concord Police Officers illegally searched the home of Concord resident Alec S. Costerus and unlawfully seized his firearms. Costerus has battled the injustice ever since. Costerus filed a petition today to the nation's highest court in his bid to have Massachusetts' discretionary gun law declared unconstitutional.
Massachusetts enacted its current gun control law in 1998. Among others, the new law requires firearms owners to obtain a license to carry - even to possess a firearm in the home, where a non-discretionary firearms identification card was formerly required. "Under the current law," Costerus says, "that requires a license in order to exercise constitutionally protected rights, one should not be subject to the standardless discretion of 351 local licensing authorities throughout the state." Ten other states also have similar so-called "may issue" statutes. "Discretionary statutes are subject to the arbitrary interpretation or the capricious abuse of discretion of licensing authorities. Worse, they are ripe for discrimination."
The Costerus v. Swift petition asks the Court to determine whether the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to keep and bear arms, and whether the Second Amendment embodies a fundamental right made applicable to the States by the Fourteenth Amendment. Costerus also challenges the state's statute as violating both the 'Due Process' and 'Equal Protection' clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment.
Costerus acknowledges the longshot. "Only 1% of the 7,000+ cases brought to the Supreme Court are ever accepted for review." "But," he adds, "we will all lose our rights if, in the face of this aggression, whether in the form of British guns or a legislative pen, we fail to defend our rights."
If the Court grants certiorari, it will mark the first time that the Supreme Court will take a case based on direct review of the Second Amendment. "There have been other cases that discussed the 'Right to Keep and Bear Arms,' but those cases were brought to the Court primarily on other grounds."
The most recent case involved a Texas case, United States v. Emerson, in which the Fifth Circuit ruled that the Second Amendment confers an individual right. The Supreme Court denied certiorari in the Emerson case allowing the Fifth Circuit ruling to stand. "The First Circuit in my case ruled directly opposite to Emerson, so we have a circuit conflict," Costerus says. "The time is ripe for review."
Representing himself, the former two-time state shooting champion and certified firearms instructor filed a 46-count civil rights suit in October, 2000, in federal court against Concord officers for their illegal search of his home without a warrant and the seizure of his lawfully possessed firearms, in violation of his Fourth Amendment rights. His suit also seeks prospective injunctive relief against the state for enacting a statute that violates the Second, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
10-04-2004, 04:05 PM
Concord Police Sued for Taking Gun of Homeowner
Bill Before Legislature Would Address Problem
By Curt Lovelace
When Alec Costerus moved back to Massachusetts in March 1999, he heard there was a new law regarding handgun licenses.
So he innocently went to the Concord Police Department to inquire what he needed to do. He still held a Firearms Identification (FID) card which had no expiration date. But instead of being given the information on what to do, Costerus was immediately arrested by Sgt. Barry Neal and put in jail.
The charge was "illegal possession of a firearm" although Costerus didn't have any guns in his possession. Later, Concord officers searched his home and seized two handguns and a competition rifle.
Despite spending a night in jail and having his family frightened by an illegal search of his home, Costerus wanted to forgive and forget. He hoped to clear up the "gigantic misunderstanding." In November, the charges against him were dismissed without a trial.
Filed for a License
Costerus then filed for a license to carry handguns. The response was unexpected. On December 31, 1999, an officer drove up the driveway and hand delivered the chief's letter of denial.
Two reasons were given by Chief Leonard Wetherbee of the Concord Police Department. They were:
"1. Your failure to comply with a Concord Police Department Administrative Policy requiring the completion of a state approved Firearms Safety Course when upgrading from a Firearms Identification Card to a License to Carry.
"2. Your recent involvement in domestic and firearms related issues in the Town of Concord."
Costerus says he's exempt from the necessity to complete a firearms safety course. This exemption comes straight out of the law itself, the Massachusetts Gun Control Act of 1998, which exempts current FID cardholders, he says. His FID card was still valid, he explains, when he applied for his License to Carry. In addition, he is qualified to teach the Firearms Safety Course. He is a former Massachusetts State Champion shooter, a high school and college competitive shooter and has both ROTC and police training.
The only illegal activity regarding Costerus and firearms, he maintains, was on the part of the Town of Concord. The police illegally searched his home and confiscated his weapons without probable cause, he claims. All charges against Costerus were eventually dropped.
On January 3, 2000 Costerus petitioned the Concord District Court to review the denial. In March a judge declared, "While the chief's discretion is certainly broad, it is not unlimited." The judge's ruling contained an order to issue Costerus a license. But Chief Wetherbee countered with a Motion for a Stay of Enforcement. Costerus received no license.
A Federal Case
In August 2000, Costerus filed a civil rights suit in U.S. District Court in Boston against the Town of Concord and the State of Massachusetts. In the 40-count suit, Costerus, who is not an attorney and is representing himself, charged several police officers and the police chief, as well as then-Gov. Paul Cellucci and several state officials, with numerous violations of the Second, Fifth and Fourteenth amendments to the U.S. Constitution. The suit also cites violations of the Declaration of Rights and the Privacy Act of 1974 and it charges conspiracy, fraud, larceny through illegal conversion, negligence, false arrest, false imprisonment and malicious prosecution.
"In a nutshell, this is what I'm looking for," Costerus explained to MassNews. "From the Concord defendants, I want recovery of actual, compensatory and punitive damages. I'm seeking an injunction as well. I want my property back. It was illegally obtaine. It was stolen from my house without due process.
"From the state defendants I am seeking Declaratory Relief, which basically says to the state, 'You were wrong.' I'm also seeking Prospective Relief, in that I'm seeking that all of Chapter 180 be declared unconstitutional in all of the aspects I specifically address."
Costerus believes he is fighting for more than money. He is fighting for the U.S. Constitution. He said, "I deeply regret the time that fighting to preserve our Constitutional rights has diverted from my family and other pursuits. But any right not worth fighting for is not worth having. If I do nothing, then I would not be worthy of exercising those rights, and what kind of example of civic responsibility is that? As long as the egregious acts of the Concord police remain unchallenged, we, all of us, as a lawful society, suffer and share in my doom. And as long as the Commonwealth enacts laws, such as Chapter 180 of the Acts of 1998, that strip away rights that are guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, then we as a body of citizens must defend our rights."
He believes that licensing gun owners at the discretion of local police chiefs is discriminatory. It can be used as a racist, anti-Semitic or anti-female tool in the hands of an unscrupulous police chief.
A federal judge, Morris E. Lasker, granted a motion by the state last month to dismiss part of the case. According to Costerus, "The judge said I would be entitled to Prospective Injunctive relief, but only when there's a valid, Constitutional claim. He said there is no individual right under the Second Amendment for an individual to keep and bear arms. So the counts of the original complaint were dismissed to the extent that they make Second Amendment claims." Costerus has filed a Notice of Appeal to the United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit."
First Circuit Will Decide
He considers this dismissal a victory of sorts. He says there is a case in the Fifth Circuit, United States v. Emerson, where Dr. Emerson was charged with possessing a firearm in violation of a federal law while he was under a restraining order. The federal district court judge ruled that the federal statute deprived Emerson of his Second Amendment rights as much as a convicted felon.
The judge, Costerus says, did a very lengthy study of the Second Amendment and how it applies. He ruled that there is under the Second Amendment a guarantee for an individual's right to keep and bear arms and that that federal statute violated that right. "That completely flies in the face of what this judge in Massachusetts just wrote, who by the way spent no time investigating the matter," he argues.
The way Alec Costerus sees it, "Even if I lose in the First Circuit, and Emerson wins in the Fifth, we will have a federal jurisdictional conflict. So at this point it doesn't matter whether I win or lose, if Emerson wins. If we both lose, it would be a different story."
For now, Costerus remains unlicensed and without his firearms, which are being held by the Concord Police Department. He is awaiting a ruling by the First Circuit Court of Appeals. While he has not engaged an attorney for this process, he has amassed large legal bills. Donations can be made to the Alec S. Costerus Legal Fund, P.O. Box 705, Concord, MA 01742-0705.
Both Barry (now Lieutenant) Neal and Chief Leonard Wetherbee of the Concord Police Department were contacted for comment on this case. Barry referred us to Wetherbee, who has not responded.
Bill Before Legislature Would Address Problems
A bill currently before the state legislature would address some of the problems encountered by Alec Costerus. Senate bill 1178 would eliminate the discretionary role of local police chiefs in the issuance of licenses to carry firearms. At a hearing before the Public Safety Committee in March, Rep. George Peterson (R-Grafton), one of the sponsors of the bill, said that this legislation would make Massachusetts a "shall issue" state for firearms licenses. He told the panel that the current system, which leaves all license decisions up to local police chiefs, creates, in essence, 351 different sets of standards. This bill takes away police chief discretion. No determination has been made by the committee as yet.
Senate 1178, in its entirety, reads thusly:
AN ACT RELATIVE TO FIREARM LICENSING.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives in General Court assembled, and by the authority of the same, as follows:
SECTION 1. Paragraph (d) of Section 131 of Chapter 140 of the General Laws is hereby amended by striking, in line 4, the words: "may issue if it appears that the applicant is a suitable person to be issued such license, and that" and inserting in place thereof the following words: "shall issue, if."
10-04-2004, 07:27 PM
ive got two shotguns and a 22 rifle... if you want to get a shotgun (which is what i would suggest) i would go with something like a remington 870 HD. The hd stands for home defense and is a little different from the regular. it has an 18" barrel and some of them come with an extended magazine.
If you live near a Dicks sporting goods or a galayns, go in there and check them out. i think you can get one for under 300.
Mossberg makes a nice one too, its all up to you. go there and shoulder each one and see what one feels best.
as for ammo i would use #4.
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