Wanna hear everybody's thoughts on tonight's debate. I personally think Kerry did a pretty good job, althought it is much easier to criticize than it is to defend..
The part I highlighted above is what I worry about. It also, no flame intended, highlighted that you're just a blind kerry follower. Does it seem logical that someone with Kerry's articulation skills could "accidentally" make such a mess with his words over the course of his entire senate career that the republicans could make a case out of his flip-floppedness? In reality that doesn't make any sense. He's just a good liar and a good debator..... Kerry was cool, confident, and spoke very well. Bush rambled. He was nervous, unprepared, and seemed like he didn't really care, in which he should have. Bush beated around the bush lol. Kerry explained his flip flopping-ness and apologized. What I got from it was that he was always strong in his beliefs and they never really changed, it just came out confusing and plus all the negative republican ads made it worse. He explained himself well. Bush kept talking and talking about Iraq like a robot, when Kerry had to remind him each time it wasn't right to go there in the first place. WTF was Bush writing down on his little paper? God only knows.. but he was scribbling on that paper so intensely the whole night lol. Bush totally lost this one. Republicans wont change parites and neither will democrats with something like a debate. Undecided voters, however will. They are slanting to Kerry now.
I hate to tell you buddy, but you're not going to see any outsourcing reform under Kerry. Heinz outsources 150K jobs and is #2 in the US. Now, I know Teresa and Kerry don't run the show, but they pull weight and could / should put pressure to bring those jobs home, especially since outsourcing is part of his platform..... Plus as a future computer science engineer I cant like how Bush doesnt care about outsourcing. Good for the economy long term my ass!
I can explain it for you if you'd like.No, I understand Kerry quite well, its just sorta hard to explain and it makes him SEEM flippy floppy.
How's he gonna grow the armed forces? Do you seriously believe that we're turning down soldiers or something? We're soaking them up like a super-sponge. They're trying to get every person they can!Kerry carries some wisdom.. Bush, seriously lacks that. Kerry vows to strengthen and grow our U.S. Special Forces and use them specifically for terrorists (which is a great idea).
No, they hate us becaue they are ruled by a crazy Islamic Theocracies and dictatorships who teach hate of "infidels" and the western world from their first breaths. Their school are all about a twisted version of Islam.It takes time to grow peaceful relations. The middle east hates us because they have a misunderstanding of us.
No, we hate them because a) some of their radicals blew us up and b) there was a great majority of their people dancing in the streets handing out candy when our people died!We hate them because we have a misunderstanding of them.
Yeah, the partial side is the complete cover up of the depth of the hate, evil, etc. that resides in fundamentalist islam. They also play down the severity of the situation of it over there and they blame us for most of their problems!!The media is partially to blame on BOTH sides.
You can't? What they hell else are you supposed to do? You have two choices: 1) kill 'em 2) convert to Islam.You cannot fight terrorism with bullets
It's not Islam? Who is it then? Educate me.and expect it to go away any time soon unless you plan on killing EVERYONE associated with it, all the way from the people who make up propaganda and tie it in with Islam to those who carry the ak47.
That wasn't a terrorist war. That was a war against communist in an effort to free south Vietnam and we had our hands tied politically; the only similarity is the guerilla warfare.That is just not going to work. Look at Nam.. our first "terrorist" war.
Owned? IF you talk numbers we worked them. In fact, a Vietnamese General wrote a book on how he was about to throw in the towel and "specifically" John Kerry and Jane Fonda inspired him to keep fighting....We could have run that who place over militarily in no time. We didn't; thank you left-wing, PC, weenies!!We were getting owned. We called a victory and got the **** out.
I agree; bombs are more suitable.Why? Cause nobody knows how to fight terrorists. You cannot fight terrorists with bullets.
The misunderstanding that needs to be broken is that beaurocracy can fix any terrorism.The misunderstanding needs to be broken..
We finally agreeand peace NEEDS to be made. AT THE SAME TIME, we cannot sit back and get shot up by them.
How does it do that?Kerry knows this and it is what makes him seem like a flip flop.
We dont need to kill them, we need to destroy the mechanism which creates them; i.e. Fundamentalist Islamic Theocracies and Dictatoriships! Freedom and truth will free them from ignorant hate. I'd like to see someone try to sit down and talk with UBL or Al-Zarqawi...they'd just get their damn head cut off....Nobody said it was going to be easy. They hate us more for pulling **** like Iraq. If we mind our own businesses, have respectful foreign affairs, allies that actually like us, and work on destroying the misunderstanding, it will be way more benefical for our future, even if it takes a long ass time. Remember if you wanna fight them, you gotta kill them all. We all know thats impossible. Kerry is doing what is best for the future. Fighting terrorism with terrorism has proven quite nicely to not work but actually explode the situation more.
I'll leave the judgement to God and not yourself.Will fighting just makes them more mad/agressive/out for our blood. If you wanna play your game, you better load up alot of bullets and bombs and be prepared to kill almost everyone on that side of the world including tons of innocent people. Do you believe in God? If you do, you should know that man will be held responsible for his actions here.
No, it's not. That's why we need to make these governments work with us.Bombing the **** out of some country that has many innocent people and a few terrorists scattered isn't exactly ethical.
Fix things at the root? That's the whole ideology behind the importance (outside of WMD's) of Iraq! Fixing it at the root! The root of this probem is these governments in the Middle East who breed these terrorists!! There are already reformers in Iran that really want to kick the existing theorcracies! If Iraq and Afghanistan are successful democracies it will spread. These people will rise up and they will have supportive neighbors as well America on their side! I'd like you to hold me to my words over the next couple decades. I'd guarantee my words with fingernailsI guess thats the difference between Bush and Kerry. With Bush, its war only. With Kerry, its war, but also the ideology to fix things at the roots. You just have to decide who you wanna vote for, and in your case, its obvious.
Great post You're helping expose the d*ck for what he is.Thought you guys might find this interesting:
KERRY CLAIMS HE'S "NEVER, EVER" USED WORD "LYING" IN REFERENCE TO PRESIDENT BUSH ON IRAQ. JIM LEHRER: "New question, Senator Kerry. Two minutes. You've repeatedly accused President Bush, not here tonight but elsewhere before, of not telling the truth about Iraq. Essentially, of lying to the American people about Iraq. Give us some examples of what you consider to be his not telling the truth." SEN. KERRY: "Well, I've never, ever used the harshest word as you just did." (Sen. John Kerry, First Presidential Debate, Miami, FL, 9/30/04)
BUT IN DECEMBER 2003, KERRY TOLD NEW HAMPSHIRE EDITORIAL BOARD BUSH "LIED" ABOUT REASON FOR GOING TO WAR IN IRAQ. "Kerry also told a New Hampshire newspaper editorial board Friday that Bush had 'lied' about his reasons for going to war in Iraq, a word Kerry has been reluctant to use publicly for months. Yesterday he said he did not plan to use the word again." (Patrick Healy, "Kerry Camp Lowers N.H. Expectations Behind In Polls, Senator Now Seeks Spot In 'Top Two,'" The Boston Globe, 12/8/03)
AND IN SEPTEMBER 2003, KERRY SAID BUSH ADMINISTRATION "LIED" AND "MISLED." "This administration has lied to us. They have misled us. And they have broken their promises to us. The president promised to the people and the Congress that he would build an international coalition, respect the United Nations' process and only go to war as a last resort. I will tell you that from my war fighting experience, I believe there is a test for a president as to how you go to war. And that test is whether or not you can look in the eyes of parents and say to them, 'I did everything possible to avoid the loss of your son and daughter, but we had no other choice in order to protect the security of our nation,' and I know this president fails that test in Iraq."
Remark from Lockhart:
Unbeknownst to Kerry adviser Mike McCurry, a C-SPAN camera quietly followed McCurry as he found Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart on Spin Alley floor and asked him his impression of the debate. Lockhart candidly said to McCurry , “The consensus is it was a draw.�
You noticed that too? I was sitting at home thinking the same as you, WTF!!, make up your mind Kerry!!Honestly, how stupid does this position sound: Kerry wanted to make sure we have a grand coalition for Iraq, yet he wants bilateral talks between ourselves and korea? WTF is that?
They're still kicking out fags as fast as they can find them, about 10,000 over the past 5 years. I'm pretty sure a liberal like Kerry would try to change that. (One of my old roommates used it to get out of the military, he's straight, but he's pretty good at pretending.)How's he gonna grow the armed forces? Do you seriously believe that we're turning down soldiers or something? We're soaking them up like a super-sponge. They're trying to get every person they can!
Glad I"m not the only one who noticedYou noticed that too? I was sitting at home thinking the same as you, WTF!!, make up your mind Kerry!!
I'm still undecided on whether or not that's a good or bad thing. I can see that it would be hard for the straight guys in there, but it wouldn't bother me, honestly.They're still kicking out fags as fast as they can find them, about 10,000 over the past 5 years. I'm pretty sure a liberal like Kerry would try to change that.
Maybe he's just pretending he's straight I'd check yoru bathroom for cameras and mirrors!(One of my old roommates used it to get out of the military, he's straight, but he's pretty good at pretending.)
That has to be about the most ignorant statement I have read in a very long time.They're still kicking out fags as fast as they can find them, about 10,000 over the past 5 years. I'm pretty sure a liberal like Kerry would try to change that.
(One of my old roommates used it to get out of the military, he's straight, but he's pretty good at pretending.)
That's my principal concern...I'll let you guys continue breaking it all down. All I have to say is, if I were an uneducated, undecided voter my vote would be going to Kerry right now. Bush really needs to learn debate tactics. He backed up very little, and I was embarassed for him.
We keep men and women seperate in the army for a reason. I don't doubt gays want to fight as bad as straights, don't doubt their ability to do so, aside from an aesthetic opinion I personally think they and everyone else should be allowed to screw in the streets if they want. Doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg, it's none of my business or the government's.That has to be about the most ignorant statement I have read in a very long time.
Good to see some of us still live in the 50's!
I hate to tell you buddy, but you're not going to see any outsourcing reform under Kerry. Heinz outsources 150K jobs and is #2 in the US. Now, I know Teresa and Kerry don't run the show, but they pull weight and could / should put pressure to bring those jobs home, especially since outsourcing is part of his platform.
Kerry is also actively involved in the company; I've seen him in China working deals.
I was goin' the comp sci route myself, but, I may just have to make it a minor now. I"m gonna go to med school. Comp. Sci. is to uncertain ATM. Plus, programmers are putting themselves out of business. The more sophistaced the languages they create the less educated the programmers have to be. pretty soon there will be an elite few and the rest of the filed will be like those web designers and photoshopers. Just MHO.
How is he going to strengthen the military when he voted against the 87 billion and has a voting record of voting against the military?Kerry carries some wisdom.. Bush, seriously lacks that. Kerry vows to strengthen and grow our U.S. Special Forces and use them specifically for terrorists (which is a great idea).
No he didn't. In fact he lied again. Kerry's first statement was that he made the I voted for it before I voted against it statement at a might night rally. Guess what? he made the statement at noon. He also didn't explain very well why his positions have changed in Iraq. At first Sadam was a threat , Then knowing what he knows now he would still have voted for the authorization, even though we didn't find WMD's Sadam still should have been removed. Now he said that the whole war was a mistake and implied that we should have left Sadam in power. He can't explain the flip flops because he is a flip flopper. Kerry's problem is no matter what he said or says in future debates he has had the opposite position at one point.Kerry explained his flip flopping-ness and apologized.
yep you are correct, Kerry wants the gays in the military to be open about being homoThey're still kicking out fags as fast as they can find them, about 10,000 over the past 5 years. I'm pretty sure a liberal like Kerry would try to change that. (One of my old roommates used it to get out of the military, he's straight, but he's pretty good at pretending.)
And i love how kerry's supporters overlook the fact that he's a war hero, yet came back and protested the war, calling his fellow soldiers monsters. If he won't stand beside and defend his own brothers in arms who are responsible for protecting and supporting each other during combat, what the hell is he gonna do as president? He'll just take whatever stance on an issue that's popular at the time in order to help him get elected. Nothing solid, just fluff. Bush might not be an elegant speaker, OR the best president we've had, but at least we know where he stands on important issues.
And the left doesn't do the same for Kerry? All partisan spinmasters are full of ****. I'm not voting for either one, I have no care in the world about either one. I'm voting Libertarian, and their policy is probably to execute a swift pull out without regard for the consequences that follow. They are strict noninterventionists. In the end Bush has not only been more consistent, he makes more sense if you believe in some type of interventionism. Kerry wants to focus the war back on UBL, but somehow still wants to make winning in Iraq a priority. He wants to fund the troops, but voted against the funding as a protest vote. He would have done a lot of things differently knowing what he knows now, but he can't go back in time so it's a pointless exercise, and actually self defeating since his position used to be so close to the president's.I love how the right makes excuses for Bush. We've set the bar so low that as long as he looks one step above a primate, that's actually acceptable, according to them
Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Kerry also serve honorably?houseman-It's not bullshit. There were many soldiers/Marines who served over there HONORABLY, yet kerry blanketed them all with the term "monster." It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the war and that wasn't my point. Yeah he had the right to protest the war but at the expense of dishonoring the people he served with to advance his political aspirations? class act. And isn't it a big coincidence that at the time the popular stance was anti-war. HMM. I'm not pulling this out of my ass- watch the senate hearings or read the transcripts and you'll see kerry say it himself. To me that's a huge character issue. I'm not totally pro bush either by the way.
I absolutely agree with you that it was his right to protest. It's just some of the things he did that are upsetting. Where's Ross Perot when you need him?:thumbsup:Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Kerry also serve honorably?
Perhaps he was attemting to further his political aspirations. I don't know. I've heard an interview between him and Mike Wallace (I beleive) at the time where he specifically said he had no Presidental aspirations at that time.
I'm not saying what he did was RIGHT, I'm just saying it was his right, if he felt, to argue against the war and the reasons behind it because after all... he HAD served.
That's all.
Personally, I think both Bush and Kerry are idiots.
houseman-It's not bullshit. There were many soldiers/Marines who served over there HONORABLY, yet kerry blanketed them all with the term "monster." It has nothing to do with the rights or wrongs of the war and that wasn't my point.
So, for those of you without critical reading skills, he's using the word "monster" to describe an awful epidimic of traumatized veterans caused by the US government entering them into a meaningless war.I would like to talk to you a little bit about what the result is of the feelings these men carry with them after coming back from Vietnam. The country doesn’t know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned With a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.
As a veteran and one who feels this anger, I would like to talk about it. We are angry because we feel we have been used in the worst fashion by the administration of this country.
thanks for the" enlightenment", but that's not the only time he used that term. And your quote is not the only time he talked about what he saw in vietnam. put your "critical reading skills" as you say to use reading quotes other than picking and choosing the one's that defend kerry if you want to call bullshit. Oh and he has also referred to them as "drug addicted baby killers and mindless drones." How are you gonna spin that one?Let's cut the horseshit and look at the actual quote, shall we?
So, for those of you without critical reading skills, he's using the word "monster" to describe an awful epidimic of traumatized veterans caused by the US government entering them into a meaningless war.
This "monster" is veterans who are pissed off at the US government for their perceived betrayal. Notice that Kerry includes himself in this group. He's saying that they are a monsterous force to be reckoned with, because they're mad as hell, not going to take it anymore, etc. etc.
Let me repeat. He is not describing Vietnam vets as inhuman psychopathic monsters who should be shot. He's describing them as a pissed off force angry at the government, and who will take action against that government and expose how meaningless a war Vietnam is. (Hey, perhaps by testifying in front of senate committees, even?)
Then please, by all means, supply some direct quotes from Kerry to back your position. I see you've provided one:thanks for the" enlightenment", but that's not the only time he used that term. And your quote is not the only time he talked about what he saw in vietnam. put your "critical reading skills" as you say to use reading quotes other than picking and choosing the one's that defend kerry if you want to call bullshit.
I don't have to spin it. I can't find any source attributing kerry to that quote. I can, however, find who actually said it:Oh and he has also referred to them as "drug addicted baby killers and mindless drones." How are you gonna spin that one?
So, actually, someone who was pissed about his senate appearance said it. Kerry never did."He was the father of the lie that the Vietnam veteran was a rapist, a baby killer, a drug addict and the like," said John O'Neill, who served in the same Navy patrol unit where Kerry served and who sparred with him on national TV during the tumult of 1971.
dude get a grip, that's a similar quote, not the same one.It was not even said in 1971.Itook nothing out of context. Just because someone says something similar you think kerry didn't say it? And yes kerry did say what i quoted, hence the quotation marks. The one's that i mentioned are just a FEW of his quotes.There is even AUDIO of kerry saying these types of things. Type in the words kerry and vietnam into any search engine and you will have plenty of quotes to "refute. " So you can stop with the whole "i'm smarter than you act." Again, I'm not an avid bush supporter, but i am a veteran, and have relatives who served in vietnam and are still paying for it, and if you choose to turn a blind eye to what kerry has done, that's your choice. The "transcripts" you provide aren't the ones that i was talking about so how do you think you're "refuting" anything? I'm not recruiting Bush voters and have nothing to gain by bringing this stuff up, but the truth is the truth and to SOME people that's important, especially when it comes to politics.Then please, by all means, supply some direct quotes from Kerry to back your position. I see you've provided one:
I don't have to spin it. I can't find any source attributing kerry to that quote. I can, however, find who actually said it:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/23/kerry.vietnam/
So, actually, someone who was pissed about his senate appearance said it. Kerry never did.
Here's what appears to be full text of Kerry's senate hearing. Feel free to quote more stuff out of context, and I will refute it providing sources and the original transcript:
http://southerncrossreview.org/36/editorial2.htm
Which is it? Is it a "similar quote", or is it "kerry did say what I quoted"? Are you flip-flopping?dude get a grip, that's a similar quote, not the same one.It was not even said in 1971.Itook nothing out of context. Just because someone says something similar you think kerry didn't say it? And yes kerry did say what i quoted, hence the quotation marks.
Actually, I have done just that, I can't figure out what the hell you're talking about. Please send me a link. I'm ready to see the light.The one's that i mentioned are just a FEW of his quotes.There is even AUDIO of kerry saying these types of things. Type in the words kerry and vietnam into any search engine and you will have plenty of quotes to "refute. "
What did he do again? Find me the quotes your talking about.So you can stop with the whole "i'm smarter than you act." Again, I'm not an avid bush supporter, but i am a veteran, and have relatives who served in vietnam and are still paying for it, and if you choose to turn a blind eye to what kerry has done, that's your choice.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=refuteThe "transcripts" you provide aren't the ones that i was talking about so how do you think you're "refuting" anything? I'm not recruiting Bush voters and have nothing to gain by bringing this stuff up, but the truth is the truth and to SOME people that's important, especially when it comes to politics.
Yes, it would be an imporvement if there was one saved job, but I"m just saying that it's not going to happen outside of rhetoric. Here's the 150,000 job citation: http://www.c-n.com/news/c-n/story/0,2111,1040788,00.htmlI am at Michigan, number 7 in the nation for CE/CSE... I am in the elite (And most ahead of us dont put out that many engineers in terms of numbers, except that damn UCB) I am interested to see where you got that 150K number, I do believe it though. But even if Kerry stopped the loss of even 1 job, that would be an improvement over Bush.
I understand the costs, but I'm just saying that as the programming languages get less difficult to use, the less educated the users must be to make programs. Now, I'm not talking assembly level, or lower code. I'm talking run of the mill programs will be made with HTML-ease. But, I'll concede my opinion, b/c you've more insight on the matter.I disagree with your statement about programmers putting themselves out of business. 80% of the cost in software is maintenance.
I'm fully aware of the way things are going for medical school. I know where the problems lie. I know the insurance costs wouldn't be so high if it wasn't for the despicable John Edwards' of the world who make their living off of those who devote their life to a profession that "directly" helps people. That's one of my biggest qualms with the (D) party and the dirty lawyers who run it (and are running for office).If I seem arrogant its a reaction to people talking down to me saying things like "hate to tell you buddy". And I hate to tell you buddy, but insurance costs are killing doctors around the nation. Not to mention its becoming harder and harder to even get into med school. But now I am stating the obvious.
You lost me on this one...I don't kow where you're trying to go here. BTW, I've got plenty of famliy members in the service and my cousin just got back from Afghanistan. Those people are taking pride in what they're doing...in Iraq and otherwise. That's what he says at least...I guess I'll never know what "everybody" believes though.People say going to Michigan has makes you liberal, not at all. I am still republican, but I dont believe a thing Bush says. If what he said was true I would definitely vote for him... but he consistenly contradicts the facts. Kerry may suck, but Bush has already proven that he does. Unless you are in the armed services and like war, then its FOUR MORE YEARS!
So you just think that is all lies? If those statements were true how do you explain them? I am sure if those things were true somebody will bring it up sooner or latergoes4ever, and you Bush supporters claim negative talk on Bush is liberal propoganda? What you posted is the biggest steaming pile of rightwing bull#### propoganda I've ever seen.
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